Canon Says Higher Resolution Sensors Are Coming Soon

jrista said:
zlatko said:
NO, I am not "turning a general statement into a personal issue", nor am I "taking offense". Nor am I saying there is just "one single person on the face of the planet who wants more DR in a Canon camera". These are points I am not making, yet these are points to which you've addressed your long reply.

I tried to be clear in specifying what I am disagreeing with (not "taking offense"). I disagree with statements like:

"Canon sensors, from a technological and fundamental IQ standpoint, are lacking."
"Technologically, Canon sensors DO lag behind the rest."

You keep saying these things as if they are some universal truth. They aren't. They are true for certain photographers in certain situations, not for everyone. There are plenty of photographers who don't perceive this "lacking" or "lagging" because their work is not about maximum DR and doesn't rely on maximum DR. For those photographers, Canon sensors are doing a great job, and they are choosing Canon sensors to do their job. The list of renowned and skilled photographers choosing and using Canon is long and deep and covers an extremely diverse range of photographic situations. You can repeat what you are saying "technologically", but it doesn't reflect what they are doing photographically.

Your still taking issue with TECHNICAL FACTS. That's what they are. We aren't talking about perceptions of IQ here...were talking about the technical facts. TECHNICALLY SPEAKING...Canon sensor technology is WAY behind the rest of the industry. That is a FACT.

That FACT does have an impact on their IQ. If you personally don't need the ability to push shadows, fine...however, that does not change the FACT that Canon shadows are WAAAAY noisier than the competition, by as much as a factor of ten. It's a FACT. Not an assumption, not a perception...it's a FACT.

Again, that isn't something personal, it isn't something perceptual. Your taking issue with something that just is. You seem to think that what some photographers achieve seems to have some impact on whether the technology is old and outdated or not. It doesn't. Your taking issue with an immutable. Canon sensor technology is out of date, and it DOES NOT offer the same capabilities as modern or cutting edge sensor technology. You can work the data to extract the most out of it, but there are things you can do with a senor that has more DR that you cannot do with a Canon sensor.

It's just a simple fact. You don't have to like it, but I'm not going to stop saying it because you don't like it.

as lots have pointed out ---DR levels out as ISO's rise and if your bread and butter is mostly shot between 800-6400 then canon sensors are not lagging or lacking at all - go past 1600 and the canon out performs the exmor. Someone here said a page ago this:

heptagon said:
Currently, Sony sensors that Nikon uses have a slight disadvantage at ISO >1000 but that seems to be fixed with the A7R. With these sensors you could basically shoot everything at ISO100 and lift in post which gives a lot of headroom to recover highlights.

To me, the really raises my hackles. So the solution is now to underexpose and push in post? While yeah it's easy enough to batch process stuff in lightroom, it's still time that needs to be spent correcting for an issue that ---on a canon you won't have because you can push the ISO a bit more.

something I find really funny about all this is that this is a fear of shadows? Personally, I try to use shadows as much as possble in my images because it leadsto a more dramatic mood. I also use other things like off camera light to increase the difference between the light and the dark. I find that pulling all the shadows into the light just leads to boring images, or, something that looks more like a comic book or an over the top HDR - if that's your style then fine, go with it but it's not for everyone. Different tools for different jobs.

Would I say no to more DR, of course not. but for the work I do, it's not a make or break issue. And there are lots of folks in this camp too. But at this stage in the game, with the sheer amount of posts now about this issue, from a handful of people - no matter the topic really is is just getting out of hand. Should this site be renamed the DR envy forum?
 
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jrista said:
zlatko said:
NO, I am not "turning a general statement into a personal issue", nor am I "taking offense". Nor am I saying there is just "one single person on the face of the planet who wants more DR in a Canon camera". These are points I am not making, yet these are points to which you've addressed your long reply.

I tried to be clear in specifying what I am disagreeing with (not "taking offense"). I disagree with statements like:

"Canon sensors, from a technological and fundamental IQ standpoint, are lacking."
"Technologically, Canon sensors DO lag behind the rest."

You keep saying these things as if they are some universal truth. They aren't. They are true for certain photographers in certain situations, not for everyone. There are plenty of photographers who don't perceive this "lacking" or "lagging" because their work is not about maximum DR and doesn't rely on maximum DR. For those photographers, Canon sensors are doing a great job, and they are choosing Canon sensors to do their job. The list of renowned and skilled photographers choosing and using Canon is long and deep and covers an extremely diverse range of photographic situations. You can repeat what you are saying "technologically", but it doesn't reflect what they are doing photographically.

Your still taking issue with TECHNICAL FACTS. That's what they are. We aren't talking about perceptions of IQ here...were talking about the technical facts. TECHNICALLY SPEAKING...Canon sensor technology is WAY behind the rest of the industry. That is a FACT.

That FACT does have an impact on their IQ. If you personally don't need the ability to push shadows, fine...however, that does not change the FACT that Canon shadows are WAAAAY noisier than the competition, by as much as a factor of ten. It's a FACT. Not an assumption, not a perception...it's a FACT.

Again, that isn't something personal, it isn't something perceptual. Your taking issue with something that just is. You seem to think that what some photographers achieve seems to have some impact on whether the technology is old and outdated or not. It doesn't. Your taking issue with an immutable. Canon sensor technology is out of date, and it DOES NOT offer the same capabilities as modern or cutting edge sensor technology. You can work the data to extract the most out of it, but there are things you can do with a senor that has more DR that you cannot do with a Canon sensor.

It's just a simple fact. You don't have to like it, but I'm not going to stop saying it because you don't like it.

What is a fact and what is relevant is not always the same. It depends on the individual and the situation. It is a fact that the Sony sensor is better in certain situations. But that fact is not relevant for all photographers. Obviously it is relevant to some such as yourself — I am not disputing that.

It is a fact that slide film had less dynamic range than negative film. A fact. Or FACT as you say. And yet slide film had an era of great popularity. And not just among amateurs, but professionals. Steve McCurry's amazing lifetime body of work is almost all slide film up until the digital era. The images are magnificent — maybe not according to some test that DxO would apply — but they are magnificent nevertheless. That's the kind of image quality that escapes the DxO definition of "image quality". The number of professional photographers who chose slide film for their work was long and deep. Obviously DR was not THE defining characteristic of what would meet their needs; obviously other factors were more relevant.

There are facts that are universal ("the sun rises in the morning"), and there are facts that are qualified by who is speaking and under what circumstances ("xyz computer is too slow").

It is a fact that part of Sebastiao Salgado's magnificent Genesis book was made partly with Canon (after he stopped using medium format film). Whatever facts may be proven or tested "technologically" about the sensors he used, they didn't stop him from producing this great work. It is a fact that Annie Leibowitz has been using Canon for years for some of her editorial and advertising work. It is a fact that numerous photojournalists, including a great portion of World Press Photo award winners, use Canon. And many sports photographers choose Canon and produce great work with Canon. Those are facts too. All of these people could choose cameras with other sensors, but didn't. It's not because they don't know or don't care (as is often alleged by sensor critics); rather, it's because Canon sensors meet their current technical and artistic requirements. Those photographers could easily go elsewhere if Canon failed them or if Canon's being "WAAAY" behind in some parameter actually mattered to them.
 
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AvTvM said:
tomscott said:
No offence AvTvM your the type of customer that won't be happy with any camera.

wrong. I bought the Canon EOS 7D the first day it became available, paid full MSRP and was *quite happy* with it until I sold it 2 months ago. It was clearly *the best* APS-C camera when it came out in fall of 2009 and it did not cost an arm and a leg or a kidney. Do you see any Canon offering in 2014 which manages to score on both of these 2 parameters. I don't.

I'll be happy again with a Canon camera, once it is a "best-in-class" FF-sensored MILC in a body sized liked Sony A7 ... plus matching lenses ... at reasonable prices. 8)

And no, I am not the only one, who wants this. ;D

I would tend to agree with tom here. If what you say about the 7d is in fact true, the 7d2 should be a fine camera for you as it fits a lot of your criteria - it does look to be the best APC body on the market today, and it's price isn't outrageous by any means. But, why am I even saying this because you moved the goal posts all of a sudden by adding a 3rd parameter - now it has to be FF, has to be mirrorless, has to have a totally redesigned body and a new set of lenses with a new mount for said lenses ---- and you want extra features that just are not feasible (like built in RT trigger). So yeah, if i were in charge of marketing and research, I would not be listening to you because you move the goal posts too much - if I were a canon R&D person, and listened to you - I would be authorizing a huge expenditure in creating he fab process for a whole new line of bodies - Even if they matched things spec for spec, by the time the whole process is done, your wish list will have grown --- which is why it does very much seem like no matter what happens - you will not be a happy customer. Just get yourself a dang A7R, and go use it and see if having the vast majority of your wish list makes ya happy...
 
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AvTvM said:
I'll be happy again with a Canon camera, once it is a "best-in-class" FF-sensored MILC in a body sized liked Sony A7 ... plus matching lenses ... at reasonable prices. 8)

Why not buy the A7 (or A7r or A7s) then? It surely meet more needs than 7D2s, which is again most likely the best APS-C camera on the market at the moment. And I seriously doubt, that any mirrorless right now will outperform the 7D2 in the AF department (which seems to be one of the primary selling points for the 7D2), especially combined with Canon telephoto lenses :)
 
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I think there is something important missing in some of these discussions evolving technical achievements. What if had a DSLR with the ability for perfect focus where we wanted it on every shot along with 50 stops of DR and no noise in the photo regardless of ISO and was available at an affordable price. I think we would have a lot of absolutely perfect photographs of any subject you could imagine with absolutely no one interesting in looking at them other than the person who took the picture as there would be unlimited examples on the internet that would show the exact same thing that someone else had taken. Photographs have to appeal to other people in non technical terms after the novelty of uniqueness has passed. A perfect copy of the Mona Lisa is after all just a "copy". I do not believe that photography can be defined in technical terms and survive except to document a moment that will never happen again. To me, an excessive amount of DR in a photo, makes it look manipulated.
 
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Admittedly, the DR arguments were until very recently, annoying the ever loving crap out of me.

Then I read a blog entry by the person behind the former fake Chuck Westfall site and if there was one point he made that stuck with me, it was that people need to be vocal if they want change. He was trolling, for sure, but he made a compelling argument as to why.

In light of this "official" comment, which seems to suggest that either Cannon is unaware of, or not concerned about truly seeing to it that their sensors continue to be the best, I'm suddenly less critical of those who are vocal about wanting more DR at low ISOs.

They serve a purpose, even when they annoy the heck out of most of us.
 
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Mitch.Conner said:
In light of this "official" comment, which seems to suggest that either Cannon is unaware of, or not concerned about truly seeing to it that their sensors continue to be the best, I'm suddenly less critical of those who are vocal about wanting more DR at low ISOs.

They serve a purpose, even when they annoy the heck out of most of us.
Fair enough. But this is only valid, if they are heard on the right places, not just on bulletin boards :)
 
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jrista said:
@Zlatko: Your turning a general statement into a personal issue. THAT...right there...is the problem with these forums. Stop making it personal. It's not. There is absolutely zero reason to take issue with someone elses statement like that, because you are ASSUMING something about what they have said. Your creating mountains out of molehills, like so many others here.

This whole "Not everyone is like you" argument is really getting old. It is like it's intentionally making everything personal, which is exactly what we don't need. Sure, everyone is different. But everyone also falls into groups of like-minded individuals. No one ever has truly unique wants and needs. There isn't just one single person on the face of the planet who wants more DR in a Canon camera. :P

Canon sensors, from a technological and fundamental IQ standpoint, are lacking. People don't seem to understand dynamic range, which is why they don't understand that statement. It isn't just a super-deep shadow thing, where there couldn't possibly exist usable data that could possibly matter to anyone who does "real" photography. ::) Dynamic range represents the RANGE of clean signal, from a point in the darkest tones where noise reduces information to a level of unusability, to the brightest tones where the signal saturates (the clipping point). More dynamic range affects that entire range...not just the shadows.

Shadows are usually talked about most, because recent gains on the DR front have been achieved primarily by a reduction in read noise, which affects that noise floor, the point of unusable or minimally usable information...by making it lower. However that is not the sole means of improvements on the DR front. Dynamic range has been increased at every level by increasing quantum efficiency and by increasing charge capacity. Increased Q.E. leads to lower gain, which leads to improved color...at EVERY level...shadows, midtones, highlights...even deep shadows that would otherwise be useless mush in a Canon camera. Increased FWC also allows lower gain, which leads to further improved color...again, at EVERY level.

Canon sensors have lower Q.E. and often lower (and sometimes MUCH lower) FWC than competitors sensors. The only reason Canon sensors have decent SNR is because Canon weakened the CFA, resulting in more color crosstalk and color bleed between pixels. That's where the "waxy" and often "muddy" SOOC color that has become a hallmark of Canon cameras comes from...poor color purity at each pixel. Some people like the "warmer" tone...which ironically is in large part a consequence of high color noise which is biased to red. A loss in color purity can be dealt with...it's ultimately mathematical, so it can be corrected. It's just one more thing, though, that you wouldn't have to think about with better sensor technology.

Technologically, Canon sensors DO lag behind the rest. I personally consider Canon sensor technology to be dead last...and I spend a lot of time researching sensors and sensor technology. Canon is hardly mentioned, has hardly been mentioned in the fast-paced sensor world, for years. When they are mentioned, the mentions are rather lackluster. DPAF patents simply get that...a mention, no fanfare. There are some RADICAL and truly amazing innovations occurring in the sensor world...the cutting edge is so far out there compared to where Canon is, it's doubtful Canon could ever reach it, assuming they cared to try. This is a purely technical assessment...there is nothing personal here. It's just based on some simple facts about the core technology. You can choose to take offense at this, but that's your deal. I'm not here to purposely offend you...this is just the state of the technology (which is a rather sterile set of factors, and certainly not the sole factors that have an impact on the ultimate perception of IQ for each individual.)

The notion that only Canon considers IQ as a whole is a fallacy. The Nikon D800 and D600 cameras have demonstrably better IQ, "as a whole", than Canon cameras do. There may be a few nuanced differences here and there, like warmer vs. neutral color tone or one by default preserves highlights more while the other preserves shadows more, that may cater to different preferences, but overall, Nikon cameras with Exmors in them have some of the best IQ and most flexible RAW images for DSLR cameras on the planet. Sony may be a different story...they chose to lossy-compress their "raw" images, so I don't know that the same statement can be applied to them specifically...but Canon is not the sole retainer of "considering image quality as a whole."

That statement is also suspect, given that they really seem to be considering image quality within a bubble of their own specifications, ignoring the gains that can be made in areas they are...apparently simply uninterested in. If Canon really cared about image quality as a whole, they wouldn't be ignoring low ISO IQ, where their sensors suffer the most, and by a very considerable margin. They wouldn't be ignoring similarly significant gains being made on the high ISO/low light front as well...the 2-stop DR advantage is no longer just a low ISO thing...it's an ultra high ISO thing as well. Canon (at least, the Canon alluded to by Maeda's comments) has tunnel vision...their idea of "image quality as a whole" seems to largely revolve around upper midtones and highlights (the areas where Canon sensor IQ is fine). I say upper midtones, because it is also very easy to demonstrate that Canon lower midtones also suffer from read noise intrusion. In the grand scheme of things, I think Canon's issue is again, a technological one. I don't think they have the fab capacity to manufacture APS-C and FF parts on their (technically very superior) 180nm process...and they don't have whatever is necessary...budget or business or shareholder signoff...to build another (very expensive) fab.

I could keep lopping off pieces of the "whole" pie here...but I'll stop.

DR isn't just about shadows, it's about the entire signal. It isn't just about unusable black pixel data that no one cares about...it's about improved color fidelity across the entire signal range. It's about cleaner, smoother falloff into shadows, even if you otherwise don't touch them. It isn't just about lifting shadows, it's more often about preserving highlights (where shadow lifting MAY simply become a consequence of that preservation.) Dynamic range is dynamic range...it doesn't exist in one area of the signal or another...it defines the range within which the signal can be created, shifted around in, and processed within...as well as to the richness of that signal.

Dynamic range affects the whole signal. If you look for the differences between images with more and images with less DR, differences are there, all over the place. Sometimes they are subtle, sometimes they are obvious. Sometimes subtle is exactly what you need (such as in the case of clean, smooth shadow falloff...I LOVE that myself...I would take that over the often "scratchy" shadow falloff I get with Canon sensors any day...and that doesn't involve any shadow pushing whatsoever.) Whether they matter to you or not is indeed a matter of personal preference...but having more cannot possibly ever be a bad thing. At worst, it may simply be an unused thing, on average it will give you more flexibility in post, or reduce your workload by not requiring more complex or extreme editing procedures, and at best, it can allow you to do things in a single shot that cannot be done in a single shot when you have less DR, or allow you to do things that simply cannot be done with cameras that have less DR. It cannot possibly be a bad thing...so why take offense at comments made about DR, especially if it's something you simply don't care about?

If you don't care about DR, then just ignore those who do...and there won't be anything to take offense at. Unless you get in someones face about your assumptions about them, it's highly unlikely anyone actually cares that you don't care about the same things they do, so there is little reason to assume they are trying to force something on you that you don't want. :P If you get up in peoples faces about their opinions, then sure...things are going to turn personal, and your previously mistaken assumptions will become actualized. At that point, your in a death trap. You've made your assumptions come true, so now you really do have something to take offense at, and thus things spiral endlessly.

Could you expound on what "so far ahead" means? I'm curious why Canon's sensors are dead last in terms of performance and innovation.

Thanks
 
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Mitch.Conner said:
Admittedly, the DR arguments were until very recently, annoying the ever loving crap out of me.

Then I read a blog entry by the person behind the former fake Chuck Westfall site and if there was one point he made that stuck with me, it was that people need to be vocal if they want change. He was trolling, for sure, but he made a compelling argument as to why.

In light of this "official" comment, which seems to suggest that either Cannon is unaware of, or not concerned about truly seeing to it that their sensors continue to be the best, I'm suddenly less critical of those who are vocal about wanting more DR at low ISOs.

They serve a purpose, even when they annoy the heck out of most of us.

I'll give you a good reason to be vocal about this even if you, like me, don't find current base ISO DR to be a problem.

That being, improving base ISO DR will happen primarily by reducing read noise. Reducing read noise means cleaner images, and that means you can be more aggressive about sharpening and other processing if you want to be. So, even if you don't need more base ISO DR, having it will still give you cleaner images over the DR you are using.
 
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I would love to provide a reasonable statement here regarding the interview, but it would easily drown in the shouts and short stories. So I'll just sit back and read http://www.wikihow.com/Win-Informal-Arguments-and-Debates in another browser-tab while the storm settles. I'm sure it will enlighten me just as much.
 
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Thought for you guys: how much of this 'problem' with Canon being so far behind is due to the rising prevalance of Photoshop and significant amounts of post processing?

I have never been huge on all the PS work that a lot of folks do to their work. To me I like pictures that look like what you saw when you took them. But, that's me.

Still, because one can do so many kinds of things in PS, it seems like at some point we have started to measure cameras against how far they allow you to take PS. PS has become where the image is created, and not the camera. The cart is before the horse, no?

Just food for thought.
Brian
 
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MintChocs said:
Who are these higher resolution customers, one might ask? I can only think of two groups, landscape and studio. By the time Canon bring their product to the table, there will not be much room left on it! Unless they improve the dynamic range on a product aimed for landscape pros all those extra megapixels will be as useful as a chocolate teapot. :-) For studio photographers I see the costs dropping for MF though not to the same extent as it is a small market but maybe enough to attract more people who would otherwise have bought this Canon higher megapixel. The only reason I can think of for Canon not improving their sensors is the profit margin. Building a new fabrication plant would impact on their profits and share price something they don't want to do until they absolutely have too, they may never build one and instead in the future just buy in sensors as they foresee that there is no future profit to be made in a declining market.

I don't know how representative I am, but as a wildlife enthusiast I'd like more megapixels to help with cropping. Even with very long lenses you can't always get close enough.
 
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MintChocs said:
Who are these higher resolution customers, one might ask? I can only think of two groups, landscape and studio.

Your lack of photographic imagination limits your argumentative flow.

I take 98+% portraits and seriously need a lot more pixels. Anything less than 32 MP in a 5DIV would be a killer argument for me to jump ship.

But great news that it seems my next DSLR may still be a Canon. Have to believe they will want to match the D810 very closely.

Go 5DIV!!!
 
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jrista said:
Either they are just trying to cover their ass on their sensor technology, which is way behind the pack...or they are really just plain and simply delusional...

I understand your reaction but having worked with many Japanese companies - including Canon - I see the response as very typical of how a Japanese manager would react to such criticism.

First of all the question will likely be seen as disrespectful or at least unfair. Second the manager has to be seen as defending his company's honor to the very last by underlining his pride in Canon's product line (even by Japanese standards Canon is a very self-aware company). Finally, I am sure Canon top management value the reference to their superior "overall" sensor quality as an excellent answer as it effectively ends any discussion about possible specific shortcomings.
 
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bbasiaga said:
Thought for you guys: how much of this 'problem' with Canon being so far behind is due to the rising prevalance of Photoshop and significant amounts of post processing?

I have never been huge on all the PS work that a lot of folks do to their work. To me I like pictures that look like what you saw when you took them. But, that's me.

Still, because one can do so many kinds of things in PS, it seems like at some point we have started to measure cameras against how far they allow you to take PS. PS has become where the image is created, and not the camera. The cart is before the horse, no?

Just food for thought.
Brian

I think that has a lot to do with it ... the use of Photoshop, Lightroom, and similar. Some forum experts seem to have one and only one solution for every problem: pushing software sliders. "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/if_all_you_have_is_a_hammer,_everything_looks_like_a_nail
That's not to put down "hammers" (i.e. software sliders) — we need them — but the world of photography was built on a wide range of techniques and processes.
 
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bbasiaga said:
Thought for you guys: how much of this 'problem' with Canon being so far behind is due to the rising prevalance of Photoshop and significant amounts of post processing?

I have never been huge on all the PS work that a lot of folks do to their work. To me I like pictures that look like what you saw when you took them. But, that's me.

Still, because one can do so many kinds of things in PS, it seems like at some point we have started to measure cameras against how far they allow you to take PS. PS has become where the image is created, and not the camera. The cart is before the horse, no?

Just food for thought.
Brian

No.

I post-process every image, and that's because I like the final result to look like it looked to me. The out-of-camera JPEG or default raw conversion rarely looks like that.
 
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Lee Jay said:
bbasiaga said:
Thought for you guys: how much of this 'problem' with Canon being so far behind is due to the rising prevalance of Photoshop and significant amounts of post processing?

I have never been huge on all the PS work that a lot of folks do to their work. To me I like pictures that look like what you saw when you took them. But, that's me.

Still, because one can do so many kinds of things in PS, it seems like at some point we have started to measure cameras against how far they allow you to take PS. PS has become where the image is created, and not the camera. The cart is before the horse, no?

Just food for thought.
Brian

No.

I post-process every image, and that's because I like the final result to look like it looked to me. The out-of-camera JPEG or default raw conversion rarely looks like that.

That's exactly what I was about to say. Postprocessing is usually essential (to my eye) to get an image that resembles what I saw.
 
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