Three Sensors Being Tested for Canon Full Frame Mirrorless? [CR1]

[jayphotoworks]

Coming back to focus peaking, I realize that some users here that shoot stills primarily don't see a lot of value, but for film production, it is immensely useful. It offers the best of both worlds for these smaller cameras where you won't have a large crew, or any crew for that matter.

On a larger camera, the AC can punch in all they want on his/her her secondary monitor, while the operator only has to consider framing on their own monitor, but on a small hybrid camera, you are framing and focusing simultaneously on one screen/vf/lcd, so those ugly red and green lines makes the world of difference. In addition to that, you have a bit more latitude between critical and adequate focus when shooting moving pictures, and getting in the ballpark while the camera and subject are both moving is a godsend.

Neat to know. Don't most of the field monitors have focus peaking (and the ability to turn it on and off) independently of the camera?

Yes you can. You can even daisy chain a second monitor for the operator. But once you go down this route, I'm not so sure a converged camera would be a best choice anymore. Adding a field monitor would most likely result in the addition of a camera cage, power supply and other bits to get it going. If you have an AC and other support crew, you probably would be better off with a camera designed for video work anyways. These small cameras are best for run and gun work like vlogging, docs and weddings, so it makes sense to be a jack of all trades in the video dept.

 

[ahsanford]

Coz you spend so damn long moving the AF point to cover where you want it to be that you miss the shot, instead of remembering that focus-recompose is quicker.

Sure. I focus-recompose often, but there are times where that isn't what you want to do:

• If you are an aperture-priority shooter and want the simplicity of metering and focusing with the same half-shutter press (i.e. you don't want to mess with AE lock or BBAF). If you focus and recompose, you're locking in your metering with the original framing and not the final framing. You could clip your histo that way.
  
  
• If you want to shoot large aperture with the subject off-center. Focus and recompose with an 85 f/1.4 @ 1.4 can certainly get you into trouble.

There are times focus/recompose isn't the right call without having to change other aspects of your control set. You need to the ability to move (and, in some cases, pinpoint) your AF -- people pay good money for that option.

I'm not saying those odd needs above can only be solved with a madly complicated AF system, though. I'd love to see* the touchscreen + a right thumb drag gesture be able to allow fast/precise AF point selection while one is still shooting in a traditional OVF / camera-up-to-the-eye manner -- you'd still be discretely held to the individual AF 'boxes' of the AF sensor in this manner, but perhaps it would be quicker than many discrete left/right/up/down taps on the joystick.

*5D3 user here, so apologies if (say) the 5D4 or 6D2 already does this today, or if the new joysticks are slicker/quicker these days.

- A

 

[BillB]

Coz you spend so damn long moving the AF point to cover where you want it to be that you miss the shot, instead of remembering that focus-recompose is quicker.

Sure. I focus-recompose often, but there are times where that isn't what you want to do:

• If you are an aperture-priority shooter and want the simplicity of metering and focusing with the same half-shutter press (i.e. you don't want to mess with AE lock or BBAF). If you focus and recompose, you're locking in your metering with the original framing and not the final framing. You could clip your histo that way.
  
  
• If you want to shoot large aperture with the subject off-center. Focus and recompose with an 85 f/1.4 @ 1.4 can certainly get you into trouble.

There are times focus/recompose isn't the right call without having to change other aspects of your control set. You need to the ability to move (and, in some cases, pinpoint) your AF -- people pay good money for that option.

I'm not saying those odd needs above can only be solved with a madly complicated AF system, though. I'd love to see* the touchscreen + a right thumb drag gesture be able to allow fast/precise AF point selection while one is still shooting in a traditional OVF / camera-up-to-the-eye manner -- you'd still be discretely held to the individual AF 'boxes' of the AF sensor in this manner, but perhaps it would be quicker than many discrete left/right/up/down taps on the joystick.

*5D3 user here, so apologies if (say) the 5D4 or 6D2 already does this today, or if the new joysticks are slicker/quicker these days.

- A

Right. If you are working with tricky lighting or shallow depth of field, you have to deal with it, and focus recompose has its limitations. I don't know about other cameras, but on the 5D4, you can pick among several AF point patterns to work with.

 

[Durf]

Coz you spend so damn long moving the AF point to cover where you want it to be that you miss the shot, instead of remembering that focus-recompose is quicker.

Sure. I focus-recompose often, but there are times where that isn't what you want to do:

• If you are an aperture-priority shooter and want the simplicity of metering and focusing with the same half-shutter press (i.e. you don't want to mess with AE lock or BBAF). If you focus and recompose, you're locking in your metering with the original framing and not the final framing. You could clip your histo that way.
  
  
• If you want to shoot large aperture with the subject off-center. Focus and recompose with an 85 f/1.4 @ 1.4 can certainly get you into trouble.

There are times focus/recompose isn't the right call without having to change other aspects of your control set. You need to the ability to move (and, in some cases, pinpoint) your AF -- people pay good money for that option.

I'm not saying those odd needs above can only be solved with a madly complicated AF system, though. I'd love to see* the touchscreen + a right thumb drag gesture be able to allow fast/precise AF point selection while one is still shooting in a traditional OVF / camera-up-to-the-eye manner -- you'd still be discretely held to the individual AF 'boxes' of the AF sensor in this manner, but perhaps it would be quicker than many discrete left/right/up/down taps on the joystick.

*5D3 user here, so apologies if (say) the 5D4 or 6D2 already does this today, or if the new joysticks are slicker/quicker these days.

- A

I think the new M50 has it so you can use your thumb to touch and drag your auto focusing points around while looking through the viewfinder.

Hopefully they'll at least put this feature in all future cameras that don't have a joystick.

 

[ahsanford]

I think the new M50 has it so you can use your thumb to touch and drag your auto focusing points around while looking through the viewfinder.

Sure, but that's for a camera working 100% of the time in LiveView.

I'm asking about using an SLR in a default (e.g. OVF, non-Liveview) manner in conjunction with AF selection being dragged around on (presumably) only a portion of the touchscreen. Might that be possible?

- A

 

[Durf]

I think the new M50 has it so you can use your thumb to touch and drag your auto focusing points around while looking through the viewfinder.

Sure, but that's for a camera working 100% of the time in LiveView.

I'm asking about using an SLR in a default (e.g. OVF, non-Liveview) manner in conjunction with AF selection being dragged around on (presumably) only a portion of the touchscreen. Might that be possible?

- A

I wasn't aware that the M50 had to always be in live-view for this touch and drag to work????

What you're talking about surely would be nice though to have on cameras without joysticks for sure...

 

[ahsanford]

I wasn't aware that the M50 had to always be in live-view for this touch and drag to work????

Forgive me, I was being somewhat sarcastic. The M50 is mirrorless, so using the EVF or the back LCD (doesn't matter) is effectively always in Liveview. There is no optical light path option like an SLR.

- A

 

[Durf]

I wasn't aware that the M50 had to always be in live-view for this touch and drag to work????

Forgive me, I was being somewhat sarcastic. The M50 is mirrorless, so using the EVF or the back LCD (doesn't matter) is effectively always in Liveview. There is no optical light path option like an SLR.

- A

I didn't know mirrorless was always in live-view, I've never owned a mirrorless camera and not deeply familiar with them.
(Learn something new everyday)

 

[fullstop]

not possible on a DSLR. possible on an SLT. but not implemented on any Sony which dont even have a touchscreen to my knowledge.

 

[ahsanford]

not possible on a DSLR. possible on an SLT. but not implemented on any Sony which dont even have a touchscreen to my knowledge.

I'm pretty sure it's possible on a DSLR -- it just won't use LiveView, DPAF, etc.

Logic: if you can shift the discrete AF point/cluster on an OVF setup (i.e. the AF sensor) with a joystick giving discrete up/down/left/right instructions and that feedback is projected up in the viewfinder, you can program a portion of the touchscreen to do give the same joystick-like input to the body.

I'm just talking about using the touchscreen as faster / more sensitive / less repetitive (no more Left, left, left, really fast) option than a joystick for SLR users.

- A

 

[Talys]

I think the new M50 has it so you can use your thumb to touch and drag your auto focusing points around while looking through the viewfinder.

Sure, but that's for a camera working 100% of the time in LiveView.

I'm asking about using an SLR in a default (e.g. OVF, non-Liveview) manner in conjunction with AF selection being dragged around on (presumably) only a portion of the touchscreen. Might that be possible?

- A

Sure it's possible -- all you're doing is converting the right 1/3 or so of the touchscreen into a touch pad that moves the AF point. I mean, to say that's impossible on a DSLR makes no sense. It's no different than the D-pad on a 6D or a joystick on a 5D.

On the other hand, I think the feature is much more useful on a M5/M50, and possibly a SL2 than on a 6D/5D, because the thumb is quite far from the touchscreen on a 6D (nevermind a 5D) compared to a M5.

Like, to make it work, ideally, you should be able to drag AF point AND have your hand around the grip, but that's not going to happen for most people on a 5D/6D.

 

[fullstop]

ah, yes - to only use touchscreen as AF point command pad would also be possible on DSLRs. i misunderstood and thought you wanted to also see image on touchscreen while moving around af points - without being in liveview mode.

i agree with the ergonomical problem to use it on DSLRs due to thickness/depth of body/grip.

as stated earlier, in my opinion optimal solution for AF field selection would be Canon Eye Control AF system - an improved version 2.0 of what was implemented in some Canon (film) SLRs (eos 5, elan 7e, ...)
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/6531126959/looking-back-canons-eye-controlled-focus

last year i bought a Canon EOS 7E SLR in excellent, only lightly used condition (for 40 €) - mainly to try out ECF for myself. works rather well for me. no fumbling with thumb on touchscreen or fiddling around with af selector nipple. just look at what you want zo be in focus - and bam, it is in focus (speed depending on lens af drive performance). hands-free - to operate BFF AF button, for example.

i'd really like to have an updated, "2018 AI-powered version" ECF in a new Canon FF mirrorless cam with state of the art EVF. working perfectly and seamlessly integrated with face/eye recognition and tracking af modes.

technical challenges? yes, sure. insurmountable for innovative Canon? hopefully not. ;-)

 

[fullstop]

Drunk much?

reported. inacceptable.

The nastier the ad hominem attacks get, the better they prove I have made a very valid point.

 

[BillB]

I think the new M50 has it so you can use your thumb to touch and drag your auto focusing points around while looking through the viewfinder.

Sure, but that's for a camera working 100% of the time in LiveView.

I'm asking about using an SLR in a default (e.g. OVF, non-Liveview) manner in conjunction with AF selection being dragged around on (presumably) only a portion of the touchscreen. Might that be possible?

- A

Sure it's possible -- all you're doing is converting the right 1/3 or so of the touchscreen into a touch pad that moves the AF point. I mean, to say that's impossible on a DSLR makes no sense. It's no different than the D-pad on a 6D or a joystick on a 5D.

On the other hand, I think the feature is much more useful on a M5/M50, and possibly a SL2 than on a 6D/5D, because the thumb is quite far from the touchscreen on a 6D (nevermind a 5D) compared to a M5.

Like, to make it work, ideally, you should be able to drag AF point AND have your hand around the grip, but that's not going to happen for most people on a 5D/6D.

It may be possible, but that doesn't mean that it is practical. The toggle on the 5D's is a relatively quick and accurate way to select among an array of points with visual feedback and minimal disruption of the main image. Not sure how easy it would be to improve on that with a touchscreen/OVF approach.

 

[Talys]

I think the new M50 has it so you can use your thumb to touch and drag your auto focusing points around while looking through the viewfinder.

Sure, but that's for a camera working 100% of the time in LiveView.

I'm asking about using an SLR in a default (e.g. OVF, non-Liveview) manner in conjunction with AF selection being dragged around on (presumably) only a portion of the touchscreen. Might that be possible?

- A

Sure it's possible -- all you're doing is converting the right 1/3 or so of the touchscreen into a touch pad that moves the AF point. I mean, to say that's impossible on a DSLR makes no sense. It's no different than the D-pad on a 6D or a joystick on a 5D.

On the other hand, I think the feature is much more useful on a M5/M50, and possibly a SL2 than on a 6D/5D, because the thumb is quite far from the touchscreen on a 6D (nevermind a 5D) compared to a M5.

Like, to make it work, ideally, you should be able to drag AF point AND have your hand around the grip, but that's not going to happen for most people on a 5D/6D.

It may be possible, but that doesn't mean that it is practical. The toggle on the 5D's is a relatively quick and accurate way to select among an array of points with visual feedback and minimal disruption of the main image. Not sure how easy it would be to improve on that with a touchscreen/OVF approach.

I agree with you. I happen to like the toggle on the 5D, and I don't think that something similar is practical on a large (wide) DSLR. But I mean, I don't think it's a big deal to implement, and the user should be able to just disable it if they aren't interested.

Maybe there's some application we don't run into... I know lots of people who swear by the LCD drag for AF point selection, whereas it just isn't my preference.

 

[Adelino]

ah, yes - to only use touchscreen as AF point command pad would also be possible on DSLRs. i misunderstood and thought you wanted to also see image on touchscreen while moving around af points - without being in liveview mode.

i agree with the ergonomical problem to use it on DSLRs due to thickness/depth of body/grip.

as stated earlier, in my opinion optimal solution for AF field selection would be Canon Eye Control AF system - an improved version 2.0 of what was implemented in some Canon (film) SLRs (eos 5, elan 7e, ...)
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/6531126959/looking-back-canons-eye-controlled-focus

last year i bought a Canon EOS 7E SLR in excellent, only lightly used condition (for 40 €) - mainly to try out ECF for myself. works rather well for me. no fumbling with thumb on touchscreen or fiddling around with af selector nipple. just look at what you want zo be in focus - and bam, it is in focus (speed depending on lens af drive performance). hands-free - to operate BFF AF button, for example.

i'd really like to have an updated, "2018 AI-powered version" ECF in a new Canon FF mirrorless cam with state of the art EVF. working perfectly and seamlessly integrated with face/eye recognition and tracking af modes.

technical challenges? yes, sure. insurmountable for innovative Canon? hopefully not. ;-)

I have never heard a really good reason why Canon stopped Eye Controlled Focus. It really seems like it would be amazing with today's technology. I had a non eye focus Elan and I thought, at the time, that my next camera would have Eye Controlled Focus but nope. Anyone have any thoughts why it was dropped and pretty much forgotten by Canon?

 

[fullstop]

https://m.dpreview.com/articles/6531126959/looking-back-canons-eye-controlled-focus

I have never heard a really good reason why Canon stopped Eye Controlled Focus. It really seems like it would be amazing with today's technology. I had a non eye focus Elan and I thought, at the time, that my next camera would have Eye Controlled Focus but nope. Anyone have any thoughts why it was dropped and pretty much forgotten by Canon?

did you read the linked article? There are some hints as to why Canon may have dropped it. But I totally agree that a much improved version should be technically possible for innovative Canon in 2018 and I'd definitely like to get it.

 

[3kramd5]

ah, yes - to only use touchscreen as AF point command pad would also be possible on DSLRs. i misunderstood and thought you wanted to also see image on touchscreen while moving around af points - without being in liveview mode.

i agree with the ergonomical problem to use it on DSLRs due to thickness/depth of body/grip.

as stated earlier, in my opinion optimal solution for AF field selection would be Canon Eye Control AF system - an improved version 2.0 of what was implemented in some Canon (film) SLRs (eos 5, elan 7e, ...)
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/6531126959/looking-back-canons-eye-controlled-focus

last year i bought a Canon EOS 7E SLR in excellent, only lightly used condition (for 40 €) - mainly to try out ECF for myself. works rather well for me. no fumbling with thumb on touchscreen or fiddling around with af selector nipple. just look at what you want zo be in focus - and bam, it is in focus (speed depending on lens af drive performance). hands-free - to operate BFF AF button, for example.

i'd really like to have an updated, "2018 AI-powered version" ECF in a new Canon FF mirrorless cam with state of the art EVF. working perfectly and seamlessly integrated with face/eye recognition and tracking af modes.

technical challenges? yes, sure. insurmountable for innovative Canon? hopefully not. ;-)

I have never heard a really good reason why Canon stopped Eye Controlled Focus. It really seems like it would be amazing with today's technology. I had a non eye focus Elan and I thought, at the time, that my next camera would have Eye Controlled Focus but nope. Anyone have any thoughts why it was dropped and pretty much forgotten by Canon?

I still have a 7NE. I always use it with eye-control disabled; it has a tendency to refocus when I don’t want it to, etc. It could probably be better implemented today.

 

[ahsanford]

I'd love to see* the touchscreen + a right thumb drag gesture be able to allow fast/precise AF point selection while one is still shooting in a traditional OVF / camera-up-to-the-eye manner -- you'd still be discretely held to the individual AF 'boxes' of the AF sensor in this manner, but perhaps it would be quicker than many discrete left/right/up/down taps on the joystick.

Sure, but that's for a camera working 100% of the time in LiveView.
I'm asking about using an SLR in a default (e.g. OVF, non-Liveview) manner in conjunction with AF selection being dragged around on (presumably) only a portion of the touchscreen. Might that be possible?

not possible on a DSLR. possible on an SLT. but not implemented on any Sony which dont even have a touchscreen to my knowledge.

Ugh, Chris Nicholls just showed me that Nikon has this functionality in a D5X00 level. Are you kidding me.

Tee it up exactly at 4:00 if this link doesn't do that, it's just 4:00 - 4:07 or so, very quick but clear what's happening: a touchscreen is driving a very intuitive AF point selection that can be seen through an OVF.

Gorgeous. I'd love that. This would be awesome in a higher end SLR.

Between this and spot metering at any AF point, Nikon is trolling me pretty hard. With a D5500.

- A

 

[fullstop]

aha! was not aware of this. nice, Nikon!

but there is some menu diving involved to set it up.

and a number of potential snags / cross-dependencies may also be encountered, eg:
https://dpreview.com/forums/thread/4253759

but definitely nice to see it in viewfinder mode in mirrorslappers. who knows, maybe it will eventually also become available in innovative Canons ... unless it is already.