Three Sensors Being Tested for Canon Full Frame Mirrorless? [CR1]

[Orangutan]

...for me yes, focus peaking is an essential tool.

Please feel free to support your argument by sharing some exciting and unpredictable images from your portfolio that absolutely required the use of focus peaking to achieve (since after all, that's the definition of 'essential').

Not sure there's a need to be hyper-literal. I read jolyonralph's comment as akin to the notion that a set of wrenches is "essential" to an automotive toolkit: it's not that it will be used in every case, but will be used often enough that the toolkit can reasonably be considered incomplete without it. In any case, it was not worth exercising your claws.

BTW: IMO, caustic wit is not an essential tool for online discussion, but more of a preference

 

[BillB]

I know nothing about Canon's development cycles, but just common sense makes me think that if they are just now testing three different sensors in the middle of 2018, it's highly unlikely that a full-frame body is going to come to market anytime this year.

Sure, but there's also potentially a glut of better-than-Rebel body releases that are all timing out to the second half of next year, leaving a lovely open window from Q4 '18 - Q2 '19 wide open with nothing major (body-wise) slated to happen. It might be nothing, it might be an altogether new thing we never saw coming, etc. but it might be FF mirrorless.

- A

Canon may be testing three sensors in a mirrorless bodies but that doesn't necessarily mean mean that any of the sensors are intended for use in the first FF mirrorless body. There will be other mirrorless bodies coming after the first one, and Canon will have already begun work on them as well.

 

[slclick]

Pfffft...Sony tested four sensors. /s

 

[Canoneer]

For me the sensor variety isn't nearly as important as the form factor variety. I would really love it Canon built three chassis bodies for mirrorless: 1) pro-spec 1D style with high capacity battery and built-in vertical orientation ergonomics, 2) standard SLR style (Sony a7/a9) with extended foregrip, and 3) compact rangefinder style with option for add-on ergonomic accessories (Sony RX1R/Leica Q/M).

While Sony's a7 series has been thrashed for becoming larger and larger due to performance demands by pro photographers, and thus mitigating the potential size advantage of mirrorless, I still think there's a large enough market segment for compact full-frame mirrorless bodies. Fuji R-series lenses in the XF line received a ton of love from users of the X-Pro cameras. Why can't Canon do the same on a full-frame chassis if they intend to make a full-frame mirrorless mount?

 

[melgross]

Oh, why does my name have the Powershot under it? I don’t have a Powershot, and I didn’t bother listing my equipment.

Because you only have 15 posts to your name so are 'entry levels. As you get more posts you will be rewarded by being upgraded to 7D2, 5DIV and more. If you say something naughty you will be relegated to Nikon D850.

Ok, I get it. I suppose I should post more.

 

[ahsanford]

While Sony's a7 series has been thrashed for becoming larger and larger due to performance demands by pro photographers, and thus mitigating the potential size advantage of mirrorless

Are we talking about the same product here?

See below: in each shot it's A7 I - A7 II - A7 III - A9 in order.

They made a grip change from I to II and then Sony really hasn't changed much at all. The later models got a hair thicker front to back, but effectively their front/back view footprint, grip and grip spacing remains as bad today as it ever has been. There are small things they've done to finger cutouts and such, but the basic outer profile is highly locked in.

In fact, the #1 thing Sony needs to do -- even more than fixing menus/controls -- is to make a bigger body that comfortably handles pro glass. They have not done this yet.

- A

 

[neuroanatomist]

The whole discussion is meaningless because the new camera will almost certainly support focus peaking because all previous EOS M models do (even prior to the Powershot-type firmware models).

In fact, that's not true. Neither the EOS M nor the EOS M2 have focus peaking, that feature entered the M lineup with the EOS M3...which also marked the switch to the PowerShot firmware base. In other words, so far there are no EOS-firmware cameras that offer focus peaking (ML-hack notwithstanding). Not one.

So, do you think the new Canon FF MILC will be running the PowerShot firmware base? Or will it be the first EOS firmware ILC to offer focus peaking? If it's truly a 'prosumer FF MILC', I would expect them to use the EOS firmware base. Either way, while the new FF MILC may have focus peaking, it's by no means the certainty you claim it to be.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

The whole discussion is meaningless because the new camera will almost certainly support focus peaking because all previous EOS M models do (even prior to the Powershot-type firmware models).

In fact, that's not true. Neither the EOS M nor the EOS M2 have focus peaking, that feature entered the M lineup with the EOS M3...which also marked the switch to the PowerShot firmware base. In other words, so far there are no EOS-firmware cameras that offer focus peaking (ML-hack notwithstanding). Not one.

So, do you think the new Canon FF MILC will be running the PowerShot firmware base? Or will it be the first EOS firmware ILC to offer focus peaking? If it's truly a 'prosumer FF MILC', I would expect them to use the EOS firmware base. Either way, while the new FF MILC may have focus peaking, it's by no means the certainty you claim it to be.

I skipped the EOS M series because of the Powershot like firmware. The SL2 has EOS firmware which is more capable for less cost. Mirrorless cameras should cost less to manufacture (fewer parts), but sell for higher prices. To me, thats like charging more for more MP.

 

[ahsanford]

I had forgotten the value of 5x or 10x for focusing.

Peaking is still a keen interest of mine for the reasons I previously mentioned, but I suppose if I could go 5x / 10x -- through the EVF -- to confirm focus very quickly (like a button hold for zooming the VF and a release immediately snaps back to the full framing) I could get onboard.

The last M I used was the original. I appreciate things have changed a ton since then -- does the M5 have this option, and if so, how slick/precise/quick is the implementation?

- A

 

[fullstop]

Mirrorless cameras should cost less to manufacture (fewer parts), but sell for higher prices.

no no no, don't you dare say that!

Unless you have precise and full information of each and every bit of Canon's and Sony's internal cost accounting! Otherwise you live in dream land! And if you are not a certified accountant AND engineer in opto-electronics and manufacturing process, it is all totally unfounded conjecture! ;D

At least according to our well known Canonics in this forum.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Peaking is still a keen interest of mine for the reasons I previously mentioned, but I suppose if I could go 5x / 10x -- through the EVF -- to confirm focus very quickly (like a button hold for zooming the VF and a release immediately snaps back to the full framing) I could get onboard.

The last M I used was the original. I appreciate things have changed a ton since then -- does the M5 have this option, and if so, how slick/precise/quick is the implementation?

On the M6 (and probably also true for the M5 VF, which clones the main LCD), if you have the focus mode set to AF+MF, no button push is required – simply turning the manual focus ring on the lens automatically zooms the image on the LCD at the selected focus area (I suspect that behavior could be changed, but I like it so haven't tried).

 

[ahsanford]

Peaking is still a keen interest of mine for the reasons I previously mentioned, but I suppose if I could go 5x / 10x -- through the EVF -- to confirm focus very quickly (like a button hold for zooming the VF and a release immediately snaps back to the full framing) I could get onboard.

The last M I used was the original. I appreciate things have changed a ton since then -- does the M5 have this option, and if so, how slick/precise/quick is the implementation?

On the M6 (and probably also true for the M5 VF, which clones the main LCD), if you have the focus mode set to AF+MF, no button push is required – simply turning the manual focus ring on the lens automatically zooms the image on the LCD at the selected focus area (I suspect that behavior could be changed, but I like it so haven't tried).

Awesome, even faster/simpler than a button press!

Is that true for all lenses, or just the native EF-M FBW ones? If I tried this with a USM lens, Zeiss MF lens, would it also work? I wasn't sure if FBW was a pre-requisite for that communication to the body to work.

- A

 

[stevelee]

I had forgotten the value of 5x or 10x for focusing.

focus peeking

 

[ahsanford]

I had forgotten the value of 5x or 10x for focusing.

focus peeking

;D

 

[jolyonralph]

In fact, that's not true. Neither the EOS M nor the EOS M2 have focus peaking, that feature entered the M lineup with the EOS M3...which also marked the switch to the PowerShot firmware base.

It appears my memory has failed me! I was sure my old EOS M (sold a while back) did focus peaking, but it appears it didn't.

I'm probably getting mixed with using Magic Lantern on the EOS M, but because none of the EOS M series cameras support USB tethered shooting I never used them much for Macro photography.

I very much doubt the new FF will use a Powershot firmware, but we certainly can't rule that out, after all at the moment it's the only firmware that has been written to take advantage of the Digic 8 chip. It would make sense for Canon to consolidate their development into a single firmware system, and ditch either the current EOS-M firmware branch or the traditional firmware.

 

[slclick]

I enjoy FP on my M5 but I use a couple mf lenses including Lensbabies and that is certainly not in the majority. All said and done, I'll take accurate and fast AF on my bodies as opposed to MF capabilities every day of of the week.

 

[stevelee]

I had forgotten the value of 5x or 10x for focusing.

focus peeking

;D

Glad you liked that.

 

[Talys]

I enjoy FP on my M5 but I use a couple mf lenses including Lensbabies and that is certainly not in the majority. All said and done, I'll take accurate and fast AF on my bodies as opposed to MF capabilities every day of of the week.

I have a love/hate relationship with focus magnification and focus peaking and razor-sharp, manually focused photos. On one hand, I just love that every photo is bang-on focused on the part of the photo I want focused. On the other hand, I waste so much time doing so that I miss a crap ton of shots. Conceptually, it's so awesome that I can't stop myself from using it, often in cases that are to my detriment.

The reality is that the spot AF (square with dot in center) on a Canon DSLR is super-duper accurate. If I'm pointing at a bee pollinating a flower, 3/4 of the time, the bee will be in perfect focus. So, yeah, 25% of the photos will be unusable. But there are so many great shots that it's ok.

All the cameras I've used with some form of MF wizardry (Canon, Sony, it doesn't matter), by the time the bee is perfectly focused, I've 75% of the interesting positions I would have captured, and although 100% of the shots are perfectly focused, I might not like any of them.

The other problem I have with Canon and Sony is that whether it's the M5 or the A7R3, the AF is not precise enough, in that although something in the AF focus point will be in perfect focus, it might not be what's in the center of it, like with spot AF.

 

[fullstop]

EOS M - including M5 - is notorious for "not small enough AF fields" / lack of "pinpoint spot AF". i hope this is really improved on with M50 - though apparently not for all but only with 3 EF-M lenses: 28 macro, 18-150, 55-200.

http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2018/eos-m50/eos-m50-autofocus.shtml

hopefully "precise spot-af" selection will be implemented for all EF-M lenses (firmware? upgrade?) on all future EOS M bodies. not sure, what the bottlenecks are. sensor? digic? lens af drive? firmware ? lens-body protocol? some or all of them?

 

[Talys]

EOS M - including M5 - is notorious for "not small enough AF fields" / lack of "pinpoint spot AF". i hope this is really improved on with M50 - though apparently not for all but only with 3 EF-M lenses: 28 macro, 18-150, 55-200.

http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2018/eos-m50/eos-m50-autofocus.shtml

hopefully "precise spot-af" selection will be implemented for all EF-M lenses (firmware? upgrade?) on all future EOS M bodies. not sure, what the bottlenecks are. sensor? digic? lens af drive? firmware ? lens-body protocol? some or all of them?

The AF coverage on all EFM lenses is excellent. The lack of precision on M50, however, is probably disqualifying for me, but if I'm hire frank about it, I really don't like M5 or A7R3 precision either. Also, the M50's lack of controls makes the M5 a better choice for me, as much as I enjoyed playing with M50.

I do recognize, however, that in Canon land, Spot AF (square with dot) is a higher end enthusiast feature -- I think the cheapes body it is on is 6D2 -- so I get why it isn't on M5 or M50. I hope it can be found on the future enthusiast/semi-pro bodies, though.