Canon Says Higher Resolution Sensors Are Coming Soon

[Orangutan]

Because that's exactly what it was...a bold faced lie.

How's that different from all other marketing? ;D

 

[David Hull]

They also strongly implied that they don't care about low ISO DR and will wait until after sales tank, if ever, to bother. I think they just don't like the cost of a new fab and are doing everything to avoid it, not caring what anyone in forums says or how DxO scores look and gambling that only a few will leave and sales will keep going on as they have been for years to come even if they don't improve low ISO DR (and in other places, the word about 4k for 5D4 sounds pretty negatory as well) Oh well.

Guess it's time to look Sony/Nikon if you care about low ISO DR. It sounds like it might be a loooong time before Canon responds to Exmor. Quite a shame (again only if DR matters to you, for some it won't much)....

"One thing we know from our own testing is that Canon DSLR sensors can’t quite compete with some modern sensors from Sony in terms of dynamic range. How important to you is developing sensor technology?

We are very focused on getting the best image quality. I’m not sure what measurements you’re looking at but when it comes to dynamic range for example we consider image quality as a whole, from low to high ISO sensitivities and on balance we consider our sensors to be the best.

My ideal camera is one that can take a picture in any environment from complete darkness to the brightest sunshine.

So in your opinion your sensors are currently the best [DSLR sensors] on the market?

Yes. In the EOS 7D Mark II for example the sensor we’ve used is improved compared to the previous generation, especially at high ISO and in shadows. There’s less noise."

The fact that he has to pretend that he's never heard of DxO or any forum talk or that maybe he somehow actually hasn't heard anything in the forums or from any review sites, paints a kind of bleak picture for DR. If they had something remotely close to being ready, you'd surely think he would have responded in a much different fashion. (The only possible hopeful way to read it is that he was just saving face for the current stuff and valuing that more than being afraid of giving the impression that they were not about to move sensors forward soon. ??? )

:'(

I think they may be surprised at 5D4 sales if they skip low ISO DR fixes and 4k and the only thing they give it over the 5D3 is more MP. And if they do that again for 5D5....

If you don't shoot much any low ISO high DR stuff and don't care about rescuing the odd bad shot, I'm sure the 5D4 will be great though for stills.

They also strongly implied that they don't care about low ISO DR and will wait until after sales tank, if ever, to bother. I think they just don't like the cost of a new fab and are doing everything to avoid it, not caring what anyone in forums says or how DxO scores look and gambling that only a few will leave and sales will keep going on as they have been for years to come even if they don't improve low ISO DR (and in other places, the word about 4k for 5D4 sounds pretty negatory as well) Oh well.


Could you post a link to the article you are referring to? I read the one on DPR and it really didn't say anything like this at all.

 

[zlatko]

Because that's exactly what it was...a bold faced lie.

How's that different from all other marketing? ;D

Eh, touché.

Read the comments under that interview, though...a lot of people knew it was full of bull, particularly the comments about the state of Canon sensors. Canon isn't fooling anyone, and that can backfire. At the very least, I think customers who read that are going to know that they shouldn't be expecting amazing things from Canon any time soon (other than maybe a boost to megapixel count.)

The interview was as informative as it could be without giving away proprietary info. Most of the comments under the interview are pretty silly. It's ridiculously easy to be a critic. It's not nearly so easy to run a company or build real cameras or camera systems. Obviously Canon is working on new and better stuff to please their customers, which is in line with the fact that they already have a lot of pleased customers. Recent camera and lens releases have been pretty much answers to many photographers' wishes — photographers like myself who aren't posting any comments on DP Review. Of course, Canon won't please everyone — no company can — but they know their market very well.

I don't need to be expecting amazing things from Canon anytime soon because I already have amazing things from Canon — truly amazing for what I need it to do. It proves itself time after time. Maybe the people at Canon who live and breath this stuff and sweat every detail know a little more than the critics who are eager to dump on every camera company executive who gives an interview.

 

[raptor3x]

Sure, I don't disagree with that. However, to outright state that their camera sensors are the best on the market is taking it too far. There are many other words and phrases that could be used to describe Canon sensors and still give Canon customers the sense that Canon is working to improve things. But to outright state that they don't know what measurements could possibly be indicating their sensors are lacking in the dynamic range department, or to outright state that their sensors are the best in the world...that's insane.

Especially when so many customers in the market KNOW it's a bold faced lie. Because that's exactly what it was...a bold faced lie.

This article is motivating me to rent a D810 for this weekend, :-\.

 

[zlatko]

But to outright state that they don't know what measurements could possibly be indicating their sensors are lacking in the dynamic range department, or to outright state that their sensors are the best in the world...that's insane.

Their sensors aren't objectively lacking anything unless you have particular needs such as the forum member who needs to boost shadows by 4 or 5 or more stops. For most photographers in most situations, Canon sensors are superb.

I could write pages demonstrating what is "lacking" in the Nikon or Sony systems, but that would be silly because it would just show that Nikon or Sony aren't meeting my particular photographic needs. My comments would be pretty useless to all of the Nikon and Sony photographers whose needs are being met by those systems.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Could you post a link to the article you are referring to? I read the one on DPR and it really didn't say anything like this at all.

I'm not the only one who got that reading between the lines. Hopefully I (we) are wrong. I'd LOVE to be utterly, ridiculously, completely, embarrassingly proven wrong. We'll see.

 

[PureClassA]

Let's see what happens in October in New York. Sony is supposedly set to announce a whole new line in January with new sensors. Maybe Canon will be employing them too. They already did it in the new G7X. So now the door is wide open for others. I can hold my breath another 30 days or 3 months. The intrigue has me. I'm not in a big rush for new bodies, so maybe I'm alone here. Love the debate

 

[IsaacImage]

Sure, I don't disagree with that. However, to outright state that their camera sensors are the best on the market is taking it too far. There are many other words and phrases that could be used to describe Canon sensors and still give Canon customers the sense that Canon is working to improve things. But to outright state that they don't know what measurements could possibly be indicating their sensors are lacking in the dynamic range department, or to outright state that their sensors are the best in the world...that's insane.

Especially when so many customers in the market KNOW it's a bold faced lie. Because that's exactly what it was...a bold faced lie.

This article is motivating me to rent a D810 for this weekend, :-\.

Becareful you will not be disappointed
but live you still sucks
but ISO 64 will blow you away

 

[PureClassA]

Let's see what happens in October in New York. Sony is supposedly set to announce a whole new line in January with new sensors. Maybe Canon will be employing them too. They already did it in the new G7X. So now the door is wide open for others. I can hold my breath another 30 days or 3 months. The intrigue has me. I'm not in a big rush for new bodies, so maybe I'm alone here. Love the debate

Canon has been using smaller form factor Sony sensors in their smaller cameras for many years now. So them using another Sony sensor in the G7x isn't something new, or game changing...it's actually pretty run of the mill for Canon.

Maeda himself has said in past interviews that Canon prides itself on their fully integrated design and manufacturing, so I'm skeptical of them switching to Sony sensors for their DSLRs or MILCs any time soon.

Did not realize that! Thanks for the insight

 

[Aglet]

Sure, I don't disagree with that. However, to outright state that their camera sensors are the best on the market is taking it too far. There are many other words and phrases that could be used to describe Canon sensors and still give Canon customers the sense that Canon is working to improve things. But to outright state that they don't know what measurements could possibly be indicating their sensors are lacking in the dynamic range department, or to outright state that their sensors are the best in the world...that's insane.

Especially when so many customers in the market KNOW it's a bold faced lie. Because that's exactly what it was...a bold faced lie.

HAHA! reminds me of another camera maker saying something like, "What are you talking about? There's no dust or oil spot issue with our camera."

This is like politics, they have to tell the not-truth enough so that (many) people will (continue to) believe it.
it would NOT be good for stock price for Canon to admit their sensors are in any way behind in any performance metric.
It's all about the money, first. product and customers are secondary, even if they do have great service.
That said, I'm looking fwd to trying the 7d2, even if it's not quite as good, IQ-wise, as my micro-four-thirds. As long as the FPN is gone, i can use it.

Edit: well, IQ-wise I still prefer the bigger pixels from my 60D than from my MFT as the also larger long Canon lens I use with it outperforms the tiny miracle on my MFT. But the noise metrics on the MFT are obviously better.

 

[Helios68]

An higher resolution would lead to an higher density also with smaller pixels. I am afraid that ISO performance suffers from this high MP count. This is what happens with APS-C vs. FF...

I really hope that this issue could be solved by new multilayer sensors. Let's wait and see...

 

[zlatko]

However, I AM one of a group of people here who are regularly treated like idiots and fools writing useless words because we want more DR in a Canon camera. Why is it that DR specifically is singled out as something no one should be complaining about with regards to Canon cameras? Why are all the other things more acceptable things to complain about, like the lack of WiFi in the 7D II, or the lack in most of their models of an AF-linked meter for full 3D tracking like Nikon has, or any number of other things. It's perfectly fine and dandy to whine and complain about those things...but DR? Whew...watch yourself if to even mention DR...

Here is your answer. Let me be very clear. There is nothing wrong with wanting more DR in a camera. What I am taking issue with is people saying this:
"Canon sensors are lacking" (or worse)
— when what they really mean is —
"Canon sensors don't meet my DR needs."

The reason I take issue is that Canon sensors aren't lacking *for me*. People who say they are lacking typically make it sound as if Canon sensors are lacking for *everyone* when that isn't true, and really does sound silly. With all of the excellent photography being done with Canon sensors, it's easy to show that sweeping condemnations of Canon's sensors are untrue.

This is where someone comes along and asks, "But don't you ever mess up an exposure and want to fix the photo?" Of course, everyone does. That's why I'm not against more DR. I'm in favor of it. But it's not particularly deficient in the current sensors. And I don't treat failure recovery as the one critical test of what is a good sensor. Failure recovery wasn't the topmost consideration when I chose a film in the film days, and it's not the topmost consideration today.

And then someone asks, "But don't you ever encounter high contrast situations that the DR of the sensor just can't handle?" Of course, every photographer does. Every photographer since the beginning of photography has encountered that. But there is more than one way to deal with it. If the only solution available were pushing shadow sliders in software, then I too would be complaining about the need for more DR.

As the guy says in the interview, "we consider image quality as a whole". I like that approach.

I am currently editing work partly shot with a current Nikon / Sony sensor and there is just nothing about the sensor that stands out in relation to my Canon photos of the same event. Sure, if I had to fix massive underexposure then the Nikon / Sony would perform better. As I don't have to fix massive underexposure, my Canon sensors are performing well and not lacking at all — for me.

 

[J.R.]

I feel too much is being read into this interview ... after just releasing a 7DII, what was Maeda supposed to say? That the sensor in the camera sucks or is worse off than the SoNykon cameras?

Of course this is marketing BS and there is no way Canon would be delusional to not know that there is a difference in the sensor performance. Canon usually comes up with what the majority of its customers want while ignoring the requirements of a niche group.

Who know how many people are buying cameras basing their decisions on the DR of the sensor ... I'm sure the members of this forum do not know and I'm also sure that Canon knows!

 

[Marsu42]

In the very near future you can expect us to show something in terms of mirrorless and also a higher resolution sensor.

With the latest build-up of high iq lenses and dual pixel af, of course this is bound to happen, everyone knows it, so this news is old news...

... but how soon is "the very near future"? And what will be the sensor iq? Canon could have scaled up the 18mp resolution from the crop sensors to ff more than 5 years ago, but they didn't for lens and iq reasons. So if they release a high mp ff sensor now, this either means...

• Canon really has put their revolutionary patents to work to make their current sensors look like stone-age models
• Canon has gotten desperate enough to scale up their current high-density sensors because the market demand is so large, but high-iso performance will be meh.

 

[Ivan Muller]

Apart from the 'untested' Samsung the highest pixels in apsc is 24mp so about 10% increase in pixels compared to the Canon offering. That's not enough to switch systems imo. The 7d2 image quality is untested as yet. The few off the cuff jpegs are really no indication of image quality of the 7d2. So no one can say right now that the sensor is rubbish. It may not be what we wanted but it may be very good ito of Canons definition of image quality. Sounds reasonable to me.

If the 7d2 is to be THE apsc sports camera with 'only' 20mp but very good high iso quality, I am happy with it. After all the 1dx is 'only' 18mp and I have yet to hear anyone complain about that.

I am not in the market for the 7d2 nor the 1dx nor the 5d3, for me the 6d has just been the most amazing commercial tool ito features and price/quality ratio. The lamented low 'dynamic' range everyone complains about has been a non event practically speaking in my experience. The 6d sensor has an amazing ability to capture highlights, which are more important to me than shadow detail....I am not really into HDR looking images...

I have been using high iso more often than I would like to admit, they are just so good. It has opened a whole new world for me ito more flash power, shooting in really dark environments handheld etc etc.

What I would like to have is a higher mp FF camera and MR Canon has promised that...I am willing to wait a bit longer for that. I am sure even if the rumored beast from Canon is going to cost 8/9 K the technology will eventually filter down to cheaper more consumer orientated models that are also more affordable.

In the meantime the 6D is 90% there ito what I need right now in low iso image quality an 100% ito high iso image quality.

I, for one, ( and reading here probably the ONLY one!), am prepared to take the man at his word and wait a bit longer....

And if all else fails in the short term there is always the possibility of an A7R MK2 with a EF lens adapter.....

 

[Efka76]

I have never read in my life so much bullshit from senior person. Few my comments:

1) Canon should fire all their engineers if they need 5 years to include 1Dx autofocus technology into other camera. According to Maeda, 7DII was redesigned but remained absolutely the same as previous model

2) Canon's sensors are significantly behind Exmor sensor. If you are not capable producing competitive sensor, please buy it from Sony.

3) Significant focus on mirrorless - are you joking or are you stupid? Canon produced mirrorless camera which is maybe worst in the market. OF course theu sold many such cameras at a loss

4) What I see now when look to Canon: arrogant company, which is led by very old japanese person who still thinks that he is living in 60s' Canon is still able to support its leadership as it is not easy to change firm when you have many L lenses. For example, myself are not considering changing system into Sony or Nikon as I do not want to incur financial losses due to sale of lenses. But if we talk about new customers, it is doubtful that Canon is winning on this side.

5) It is very clear that Canon is a big ship and starts sinking slowly. This is due to not flexible management. Canon need to replace this old man and put American in CEO position, who would shake the whole corporation and kick engineers asses

6) Also, I think it would be a good idea to take Steve Jobs strategy and produce smaller number of models, which are much better than competitors.

Mirrorless market is getting serious and many new customers might buy mirrorless cameras. Canon and Nikon are practically newcomers in this market and need to put more focus and not just provide BS answers to journalists

 

[AUGS]

A very wise man once said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Sadly, I think its time some people on these forums had a look at what they are doing with respect to their posts.

 

[AvTvM]

Exactly the way I see it too.

I have never read in my life so much bullshit from senior person. Few my comments:

1) Canon should fire all their engineers if they need 5 years to include 1Dx autofocus technology into other camera. According to Maeda, 7DII was redesigned but remained absolutely the same as previous model

2) Canon's sensors are significantly behind Exmor sensor. If you are not capable producing competitive sensor, please buy it from Sony.

3) Significant focus on mirrorless - are you joking or are you stupid? Canon produced mirrorless camera which is maybe worst in the market. OF course theu sold many such cameras at a loss

4) What I see now when look to Canon: arrogant company, which is led by very old japanese person who still thinks that he is living in 60s' Canon is still able to support its leadership as it is not easy to change firm when you have many L lenses. For example, myself are not considering changing system into Sony or Nikon as I do not want to incur financial losses due to sale of lenses. But if we talk about new customers, it is doubtful that Canon is winning on this side.

5) It is very clear that Canon is a big ship and starts sinking slowly. This is due to not flexible management. Canon need to replace this old man and put American in CEO position, who would shake the whole corporation and kick engineers asses

6) Also, I think it would be a good idea to take Steve Jobs strategy and produce smaller number of models, which are much better than competitors.

Mirrorless market is getting serious and many new customers might buy mirrorless cameras. Canon and Nikon are practically newcomers in this market and need to put more focus and not just provide BS answers to journalists

 

[Marsu42]

1) Canon should fire all their engineers if they need 5 years to include 1Dx autofocus technology into other camera.

You're missing the whole point right there which invalidates any further considerations of yours. It's not like Canon isn't able to, it's that they don't want to because why rock the boat if the current strategy still generates a lot of profit. The old-school dslr crowd likes to whine about the newest model missing this and that, but they keep buying and that's what matters to a profit-oriented company which has to concentrate on the next quarterly report to their shareholders.

If no one buys the 6d or 70d because they've got outdated af systems from half a decade ago, we'll see a 6d2 and 80d in no time. But as you know, this won't happen.

 

[vscd]

<mimimi>
Dear Canon.

I don't know how people created pictures in the last few years... how did they manage to take even one serious shot on a 5D with those 11.3 Stops of dynamic range? All my photography can start in maybe 4 years, when Canon will be able to at least ship sensors with 14 or better 16 stops.

On the landscapes, everytime I go outside there is a huge gap between sky and the shadows... I can't really capture the beauty of my scene to the fullest. My HDR Button is broken and I can't use the AEB to compensate even a little bit. If I just could have a Nikon, then every picture would be awesome, I could post my food on Instagramm and there will be no banding in the shadow of my sandwich. Please Canon, PLEASE, give me more Range. My portfolio just depends on the last stop of DR. And give it to me @110 MPixel, because if I want to print it for my mum I will do it on A3.

I have nothing shown to mankind yet, and this is your fault!! And by the way, your primes have aberations. I don't like aberations. I once hat aberations in china, they tasted good. But I can't buy them here.
</mimimi>