Canon to release a 100mp EOS R system camera next year [CR2]

jolyonralph

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Not quite. The smaller the subject is in the viewfinder, the harder it is to nail the focus.
You can always expand the viewfinder to only show the 1.6 crop area, this way you can nail the focus as you wish but the AF still has the advantage of the expanded area. And as increasingly nailing the focus is going to be down to the camera and not you (especially with fast action) again there's advantage from using FF.

Each had its advantages and disadvantages. Do you take advantage of the extra real estate around your autofocus point to give you more flexibility and a greater chance at framing a moving object? Or do you crop more tightly and give yourself a better chance of getting the subject in focus?
As I said before, with a FF sensor, and everything else being equal, you have more chance of getting something in focus (using autofocus) than having an APS-C sensor.

It is true that with a 100mp R you can crop the image in the viewfinder and create what is for most purposes a 1.6 crop sensor camera. But, some on this forum object to paying for a full frame when they will almost always be cropping to at least a 1.6x factor.

The ONLY real disadvantages for using FF over APS-C assuming the sensor is otherwise identical are the potential for faster frame rates due to smaller RAW sizes, smaller end files to work with, and of course, the price differential. But these issues will slowly become less and less important as the tech improves and the pricing differential narrows. And at some point Canon will see there's little point in carrying on with RF APS-C bodies. It may take 5 years, maybe more. But it will happen, I'm sure of it.
 

usern4cr

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You can always expand the viewfinder to only show the 1.6 crop area, this way you can nail the focus as you wish but the AF still has the advantage of the expanded area. And as increasingly nailing the focus is going to be down to the camera and not you (especially with fast action) again there's advantage from using FF.


As I said before, with a FF sensor, and everything else being equal, you have more chance of getting something in focus (using autofocus) than having an APS-C sensor.



The ONLY real disadvantages for using FF over APS-C assuming the sensor is otherwise identical are the potential for faster frame rates due to smaller RAW sizes, smaller end files to work with, and of course, the price differential. But these issues will slowly become less and less important as the tech improves and the pricing differential narrows. And at some point Canon will see there's little point in carrying on with RF APS-C bodies. It may take 5 years, maybe more. But it will happen, I'm sure of it.
I agree with your comments regarding the benefits of using FF bodies in crop mode. But you forgot to mention that the APS-C can have a body and lenses that are significantly smaller and lighter. I still miss my M43 Olympus for that reason, and if they'd stayed in business I might have kept it with their latest body & lenses for when I want to go with the smallest & lightest possible, while keeping the R5 & lenses for the best IQ possible. Canon's APS-C could be the same if they focused on that aspect.
 

cayenne

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A 100mp R5s will deliver substantially the same IQ as a GFX 100S, or even as a full 645 sensor at 100mp. The larger sensors would certainly have a high ISO gain, and could possibly yield some more base ISO DR. They would also be a bit sharper out of camera if all other factors are equal. But the differences would not be night and day.

We've seen this every time, over the past 15 years, that 35mm sensors have momentarily matched 645 and crop-645 sensor resolutions. 1Ds mark III and 5D mark II vs Mamiya ZD. D800 vs 30-40mp backs. 5Ds and 5DsR vs 40-60 MP backs.

I'm guessing that will not hold beyond 100mp. But I think it will prove true again at 100mp. And if he has determined that he only needs roughly 130 ppi for satisfactory viewing of 90" prints (at a corresponding distance) then he won't have to wait 10 years for a 35mm sensor to deliver.

Now he did say he would love to have 300 ppi at that size. If that's the long term goal I would agree it will only be met someday by a full 645 sensor camera.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you.
Sure it isn't as large of a difference as it would be if the digital MF sensor was truly as large as a MF film size (6x6, 6x7, etc)....but it is big enough to make a difference.
The bokeh and rendering is different. You have larger glass grabbing light, etc....I can tell you from the images I see out of the gfx100 compared to my FF cameras, there is a difference.

The higher ISO usage makes a difference too. (it kinda has to since it is a bit more difficult to make MF lenses that are fast.

And if you were to jump up to the even larger digital MF sensor of the Phase One...whew....there's a difference.

Is it drastic enough to spend that extra $$? Depends on your use case, your budget and your personal opinions.

But there are reasons that high end product shooters and fashion shooters in the commercial markets use digital MF cameras...
 

Sporgon

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Shooting 50mp...I never want to go back.
:) I know where you're coming from and I think that I will always keep one 5DS body in the future. It's just when you come back from an event like a wedding with 600 to 800 images which will never be printed larger than 17", with maybe an odd canvas at 24" it's a hell of a lot of data baggage. I do have a reasonable work around solution though, and that is writing medium jpgs to the SD card, and full raw to the CF. Then I convert the raws in LR to 24mp TIFF. This way with the exception of the raw upload my workflow is pretty quick and not slowed by the size of the raws. I find that with very accurate exposure the OOC jpegs from the 5DS are pretty good.
 

dtaylor

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Sure it isn't as large of a difference as it would be if the digital MF sensor was truly as large as a MF film size (6x6, 6x7, etc)....but it is big enough to make a difference.
The bokeh and rendering is different.

The way bokeh looks is a lens characteristic, not a format characteristic. Helios swirl is Helios swirl regardless of the sensor or film behind it, as an example. The amount of blue is impacted by format, but is equivalent for equivalent lenses between two formats. An RF 50mm f/1.2 is going to give you pretty much the same DoF and blur amount as a Mamiya 80 f/1.9. As to which is more pleasing...that's up to the optical formula. But that could go either way.

You have larger glass grabbing light, etc....I can tell you from the images I see out of the gfx100 compared to my FF cameras, there is a difference.

Yes but that's the 100mp version. Compare test shots from the 50mp sensor and the R5. The Fuji is better. A bit sharper and picking up a bit more detail near extinction resolution. But the difference is not night and day.

The higher ISO usage makes a difference too. (it kinda has to since it is a bit more difficult to make MF lenses that are fast.

Higher ISO I acknowledge, if your lens is fast enough.

And if you were to jump up to the even larger digital MF sensor of the Phase One...whew....there's a difference.

Back in the day I seriously considered an Aptus-II 10. (Well...lusted after is probably the better way to describe it. I could not have afforded one new.) That's not quite full 645 because it's 3:2 but it is full width. I still have some sample shots on my drive, and it's not significantly better than 35mm sensors with matching resolutions, including the 5Ds.

Sampling frequency (MP) is simply a huge factor in how big the difference is between two near formats. A larger format will always be able to deliver higher IQ assuming someone is making a sensor with comparable pixel density / MP to the smaller format being compared. But things get surprisingly close when the MP are the same. Not equal...the larger format retains a high ISO and sharpness advantage, and should have a DR advantage given equal tech...but very close.

Again, I don't think this will hold much beyond 100mp, but I think it will still hold at 100mp.
 
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dtaylor

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:) I know where you're coming from and I think that I will always keep one 5DS body in the future. It's just when you come back from an event like a wedding with 600 to 800 images which will never be printed larger than 17", with maybe an odd canvas at 24" it's a hell of a lot of data baggage. I do have a reasonable work around solution though, and that is writing medium jpgs to the SD card, and full raw to the CF. Then I convert the raws in LR to 24mp TIFF. This way with the exception of the raw upload my workflow is pretty quick and not slowed by the size of the raws. I find that with very accurate exposure the OOC jpegs from the 5DS are pretty good.

I can appreciate that. And that's a good work around.
 

privatebydesign

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I think that's the answer to your question. That camera is made for specialized and niche users and uses.
But nobody can really tell me what they are, other than the large print market, and that is a tiny market that is already well served. It certainly isn’t large enough to support a bulk camera model.

I suppose I need to accept the fact that people will just buy it because they want it even though it is unlikely to be the most appropriate camera for their actual use.
 

jolyonralph

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I agree with your comments regarding the benefits of using FF bodies in crop mode. But you forgot to mention that the APS-C can have a body and lenses that are significantly smaller and lighter. I still miss my M43 Olympus for that reason, and if they'd stayed in business I might have kept it with their latest body & lenses for when I want to go with the smallest & lightest possible, while keeping the R5 & lenses for the best IQ possible. Canon's APS-C could be the same if they focused on that aspect.
I didn't mention it because it's not really relevent to the RF ecosystem. Canon have repeatedly said they won't be launching APS-C lenses for R, the R7 isn't likely to be a small and compact camera, and Canon already have a very successful compact APS-C system with the M series.
 

Aussie shooter

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I have not been paying too much attention to this thread recently and there is a lot to go through so I am just going to ask. I just say Fro's latest update and he stated the R5s had been announced. Even gave a few specs to go with it. Did I miss it or is he drunk?
 

privatebydesign

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I have not been paying too much attention to this thread recently and there is a lot to go through so I am just going to ask. I just say Fro's latest update and he stated the R5s had been announced. Even gave a few specs to go with it. Did I miss it or is he drunk?
What’s the date of the video? And why didn’t you watch it to the end...
 
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usern4cr

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I didn't mention it because it's not really relevent to the RF ecosystem. Canon have repeatedly said they won't be launching APS-C lenses for R, the R7 isn't likely to be a small and compact camera, and Canon already have a very successful compact APS-C system with the M series.
Yes, Canon isn't pushing APS-C for the R. But my comment was that that they could do it if they wanted to. And if they did, then they could have made a stunningly great system within the R mount with an APS-C small body with a viewfinder and everything else state of the art including small R-C lenses for it. If it's not a good business decision in today's market, then I can understand. But I still say that they could do it if they wanted to.
 

privatebydesign

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Yeah. I realised a few hours later what the date was. Obviously not particularly on the ball when I watched it. 1 point to Fro I guess :(
I know a lot here don’t like him but I think he has a pretty good sense of humor, and he did troll Sony, Nikon and Canon fanboys equally :)

I think it was so easy because we all seem to want the next something. That R5s and TS-E16 sounded like nice ideas... But the Sony fanboys really want an A7 IV and the Nikonites definitely want a mirrorless D850! It seems to me he has his finger on the pulse even if people don’t like his delivery.
 

cayenne

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I know a lot here don’t like him but I think he has a pretty good sense of humor, and he did troll Sony, Nikon and Canon fanboys equally :)

I think it was so easy because we all seem to want the next something. That R5s and TS-E16 sounded like nice ideas... But the Sony fanboys really want an A7 IV and the Nikonites definitely want a mirrorless D850! It seems to me he has his finger on the pulse even if people don’t like his delivery.
Yup...I have to think he might come off as a little abrasive in meatspace...but I gotta admit I get a laugh watching his videos and I do pick up on some stuff from them time to time.

I started watching him a few years ago, I found him while searching how to shoot concerts and low lighting events.

I like his sense of humor. And well, no-one is everyones' cup of tea....and like you said, I find he's got a decent finger on the pulse of things.
C
 
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