Canon to Surprise With New Mirrorless Camera

[Orangutan]

Time will tell. We've all seen the unsuccessful mirrorless present – basically flat sales for a few years now. I suspect if there is to be a successful mirrorless future, that future starts with a Canon/Nikon Rebel/Dxxxx-type body with an EVF and no mirror.

And we are in agreement yet again. As unpopular with some as this may be, if MILC sales are going to move off the mark they've stagnated at, it's going to be Canon that pops the needle.

Not necessarily. Sony has definitely made some improvements with their A7-line, judging from the reports I've seen. The current generation may not be ready for workhorse duty, but one or two iterations may get it very close. If they can make it work reliably with Canon and Nikon lenses, they may have the first legit FF pro-grade MILC.

 

[PureClassA]

Time will tell. We've all seen the unsuccessful mirrorless present – basically flat sales for a few years now. I suspect if there is to be a successful mirrorless future, that future starts with a Canon/Nikon Rebel/Dxxxx-type body with an EVF and no mirror.

And we are in agreement yet again. As unpopular with some as this may be, if MILC sales are going to move off the mark they've stagnated at, it's going to be Canon that pops the needle.

Not necessarily. Sony has definitely made some improvements with their A7-line, judging from the reports I've seen. The current generation may not be ready for workhorse duty, but one or two iterations may get it very close. If they can make it work reliably with Canon and Nikon lenses, they may have the first legit FF pro-grade MILC.

It's just a matter of of market penetration. No one has it like Canon does. Certainly that change, but right now, it's Canon. If MILC is going to grow from where it is, it's going to take Canon to do something meaningful with it. Otherwise it keep being a consumer/pro-sumer type device that will keep playing second fiddle.

 

[Orangutan]

Time will tell. We've all seen the unsuccessful mirrorless present – basically flat sales for a few years now. I suspect if there is to be a successful mirrorless future, that future starts with a Canon/Nikon Rebel/Dxxxx-type body with an EVF and no mirror.

And we are in agreement yet again. As unpopular with some as this may be, if MILC sales are going to move off the mark they've stagnated at, it's going to be Canon that pops the needle.

Not necessarily. Sony has definitely made some improvements with their A7-line, judging from the reports I've seen. The current generation may not be ready for workhorse duty, but one or two iterations may get it very close. If they can make it work reliably with Canon and Nikon lenses, they may have the first legit FF pro-grade MILC.

It's just a matter of of market penetration. No one has it like Canon does. Certainly that change, but right now, it's Canon. If MILC is going to grow from where it is, it's going to take Canon to do something meaningful with it. Otherwise it keep being a consumer/pro-sumer type device that will keep playing second fiddle.

Maybe, but if pros can reliably use their Canon glass on it, they may start using it as their second (or third) body, which could create some momentum. In any event, it'll light a fire under Canon.

 

[HaroldC3]

C'mon Canon surprise me, I dare you!

 

[eosuser1234]

Probably will not release an EF native mount mirrorless. Canon wants people to be able to use the EF lense via an adaptor, but not natively. They want people to buy into new lenses, while being persuaded into the M system via EF capability via the adaptor.

 

[Uneternal]

Canon, please don't screw this up.

- We do not want another EOS-M warmed up crop camera
- We do not want an EOS-M mount
- And we certainly do not want a crippled, worse than 6D camera

If this is anything like a 6D in mirrorless and less than $2000, this is gonna be my next camera.

 

[ChristopherMarkPerez]

Why is Canon worried about playing catch-up? Don't they already own 43percent of the overall photo-imaging market? Don't they already own the pro-imaging space?

Besides, didn't Nikon's marketing team recently make a big splash (and thereby convince the world) about how much better a big bulky DSLR is than a small wimpy lightweight mirrorless? Yes, I know, Fuji came out a few days later and suggested that Nikon was nothing less than a few beers short.

Maybe what's really got Canon worried is the perception that they're doing little to "sell the sizzle". Canon's products no longer have "the sizzle" that make marketer's lives oh so very easy.

OTOH, in informal unscientific, non-statistically accurate conversations with folks at several camera shops, the stuff that's flying off the shelves these days are the Sony FF/APS-C mirrorless cameras and lenses. They're seeing the pros switching systems and this has the "pull along effect" of encouraging non-pro buyers into Sony products, too. Nikon and Canon materials are just sitting on the shelves these days. Literally. Some of the salesmen noted they'd not sold a DSLR in a while. It feels like it's been pretty much "dulls-ville" in the Canon Camp since the 5D MkII. So maybe Canon no longer owns 43percent of the overall market and they really _are_ frightened?

...there has been internal talk at Canon about no longer playing catch-up in emerging segments, this including cinema and mirrorless...

 

[ChristopherMarkPerez]

Looking at it from this perspective, it strongly smells of Canon not wanting to eat it's own lunch by sinking yet more costly R&D monies into parallel product lines.

Which reminds me of Sony's own conundrum many years ago. Siemens offered Sony what would've been first whack at the LCD flat-panel market (which at the time was basically non-existant). Sony passed because their Trinitron TV's were selling like hot cakes.

So, Siemans went to LG and Samsung. And the rest, as we say, is history.

The moral of the story should/could be obvious. I think Canon is currently facing a similar conundrum. Only in this case, the situation is slightly different in that Sony/Oly/Pana/Fuji have already built-out/carved-out/proven the market.

Of course it doesn't help that Sony has heavily invested in sensors of all kinds. Canon has a LOT of catch-up to play and I seriously doubt they have the financial resources to pull it off.

I haven't read through all 8 pages to see if this has already been mentioned. But I think Canon are on the wrong track. There's nothing "wrong" with the M cameras themselves. What's wrong is the lack of quality lens choices and question marks over Canon's commitment.

 

[Loswr]

I TOH, in informal unscientific, non-statistically accurate conversations with folks at several camera shops, the stuff that's flying off the shelves these days are the Sony FF/APS-C mirrorless cameras and lenses. They're seeing the pros switching systems and this has the "pull along effect" of encouraging non-pro buyers into Sony products, too.

As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.

 

[ChristopherMarkPerez]

Tell you what. Come on over and I'll personally take you to the shops I mentioned and you too can ask any and all questions you like. That way you can verify for yourself the things you might hold in doubt.

As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.

 

[rrcphoto]

Canon, please don't screw this up.

- We do not want another EOS-M warmed up crop camera
- We do not want an EOS-M mount
- And we certainly do not want a crippled, worse than 6D camera

who's this "we" .. your multiple personalities?

I frankly do want an much better performing M in the EF-M mount. I want the damned bugs of the M3 fixed and the shot to shot times dramatically improved. I also want the mag alloy body back that the M had.

I also don't want to go to a fixed EVF either, so GX7/8 style or bust, because the articulating EVF on the M3 is amazing.

so speak for yourself.

 

[mkabi]

We weren’t told much, but we were told that Canon will “surprise a lot of people” with one of their next mirrorless cameras. We weren’t told if it was an APS-C or full frame mirrorless camera, but I don’t think there’s much that would surprise people if it was a crop camera.</p>
<p>The same source said there has been internal talk at Canon about no longer playing catch-up in emerging segments, this including cinema and mirrorless. It may sound arrogant, but there’s those that feel if Canon gets fully behind mirrorless, they’re the one brand that could help the segment finally reach the masses.</p>
<p>There have been rumors that the EOS M line could get an announcement for CP+ next month, alongside the EOS-1D X Mark II.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>

Yeah... for some reason... I believe that they are going to "surprise a lot of people," but not in the way that they want or what we are expecting. I foresee another XC10 concoction coming, in which case keep that Frankenstein behind the patents.

Hopefully, they bought out the NX system... lets wait and see.

 

[rrcphoto]

We weren’t told much, but we were told that Canon will “surprise a lot of people” with one of their next mirrorless cameras. We weren’t told if it was an APS-C or full frame mirrorless camera, but I don’t think there’s much that would surprise people if it was a crop camera.</p>
<p>The same source said there has been internal talk at Canon about no longer playing catch-up in emerging segments, this including cinema and mirrorless. It may sound arrogant, but there’s those that feel if Canon gets fully behind mirrorless, they’re the one brand that could help the segment finally reach the masses.</p>
<p>There have been rumors that the EOS M line could get an announcement for CP+ next month, alongside the EOS-1D X Mark II.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>

Yeah... for some reason... I believe that they are going to "surprise a lot of people," but not in the way that they want or what we are expecting. I foresee another XC10 concoction coming, in which case keep that Frankenstein behind the patents.

Hopefully, they bought out the NX system... lets wait and see.

you know what's funny. from reading the threads of actual users of the XC10 on EOSHD .. they love it.

seems the only one complaining about it are reviewers and those that never picked it up.

 

[rrcphoto]

Tell you what. Come on over and I'll personally take you to the shops I mentioned and you too can ask any and all questions you like. That way you can verify for yourself the things you might hold in doubt.

As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.

still a pretty small statistical sample. you are in france?

it's actually pretty difficult to get a feel for Europe, there's not much in the way of amazon, etc where you can track sales statistics.

looking at amazon france, i'm not seeing what you are though:

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/electronics/342795031/ref=zg_bs_nav_ce_2_13910691#2

amazon germany though as always been for the last 2 years pretty MILC top heavy:

http://www.amazon.de/gp/bestsellers/photo/571862/ref=zg_b_bs_571862_1#2

however full frame flying off the shelves? DSLR's collecting dust?

I've never seen any statistics of that anywhere. also if that was the case, DSLR's wouldn't be shipping in still 3x the quantity as MILC's.

I have seen over the 4-6 months the A7 series sell well at BH photo video, as you can see from their current list even:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Digital-Cameras/ci/9811/N/4288586282

however in a more mass market, we see the A7 disappear.

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Interchangeable-Lens-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/12556502011/ref=zg_bs_nav_e_3_281052#2

 

[rrcphoto]

Of course it doesn't help that Sony has heavily invested in sensors of all kinds. Canon has a LOT of catch-up to play and I seriously doubt they have the financial resources to pull it off.

Canon doesn't have the financial resources to create another camera product line? for real?

I think you forget just the size difference between canon and the REST of that market you mentioned.

Sony never published their numbers last quarter except to say that sales were down, profits were slightly up.
however Olympus who is #1 in Japan for 2015, did.

they expect to ship 510,000 cameras for fiscal 2015.

That's ALL.

meanwhile on the other side of the fence, canon will ship 3.8 million ILC's.

Just to put this in prospective to how much more manufacturing, logistics and sales ability a canon has versus the other niche players that you are bringing up.

Sony at last measure was at 13% and they have slipped down to 11% from what I hear. they may be shipping 800,000-1 million cameras, and that really hasn't changed much in the 5-7 years that sony has had Minolta.

 

[Loswr]

As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.

Tell you what. Come on over and I'll personally take you to the shops I mentioned and you too can ask any and all questions you like. That way you can verify for yourself the things you might hold in doubt.

Oh, I've talked to people in camera stores around here...usually the owners (a couple are personal friends). Canon's policies really don't favor brick and mortar stores, particularly small chains or solos. Things like volume invoice credits, prepayment requirements, and margin. Nikon is a little better, but not much. When you're the big fish in the pond, you can get away with it. Margins on MILCs and 3rd party lenses are higher, it's a way for those manufacturers to increase their market penetration.

Maybe you watched Miracle on 34th Street over the holidays? Remember how all the Macy's salespeople were given a list of products to push (until Kris came along, but after all it was a fantasy story)? When sales people tell you something is popular and 'flying off the shelves', you should consider their motivation.

The objective reality is the sales figures. Mirrorless is ~25% of the ILC market and their sales are basically flat. Anyone who says different is selling something…in your case quite literally!

 

[rrcphoto]

As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.

Tell you what. Come on over and I'll personally take you to the shops I mentioned and you too can ask any and all questions you like. That way you can verify for yourself the things you might hold in doubt.

Oh, I've talked to people in camera stores around here...usually the owners (a couple are personal friends). Canon's policies really don't favor brick and mortar stores, particularly small chains or solos. Things like volume invoice credits, prepayment requirements, and margin. Nikon is a little better, but not much. When you're the big fish in the pond, you can get away with it. Margins on MILCs and 3rd party lenses are higher, it's a way for those manufacturers to increase their market penetration.

Maybe you watched Miracle on 34th Street over the holidays? Remember how all the Macy's salespeople were given a list of products to push (until Kris came along, but after all it was a fantasy story)? When sales people tell you something is popular and 'flying off the shelves', you should consider their motivation.

The objective reality is the sales figures. Mirrorless is ~25% of the ILC market and their sales are basically flat. Anyone who says different is selling something…in your case quite literally!

speaking of numbers.

there was a really curious mass shipment of MILC"s into Asia regions in november.

it's really curious because it was dramatic. up from around 60,000 units the prior year to over 180K last year.

doesn't seem to be attributed to any one vendor.. however the only two vendors I could see that could ship that much inventory are canon or nikon.

outside of Asia for Europe and NA - MILC shipments slumped hard. only 130K units shipped to those two markets versus 540K DSLR's.

 

[Orangutan]

As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.

Tell you what. Come on over and I'll personally take you to the shops I mentioned and you too can ask any and all questions you like. That way you can verify for yourself the things you might hold in doubt.

Oh, I've talked to people in camera stores around here...usually the owners (a couple are personal friends). Canon's policies really don't favor brick and mortar stores, particularly small chains or solos. Things like volume invoice credits, prepayment requirements, and margin. Nikon is a little better, but not much. When you're the big fish in the pond, you can get away with it. Margins on MILCs and 3rd party lenses are higher, it's a way for those manufacturers to increase their market penetration.

Maybe you watched Miracle on 34th Street over the holidays? Remember how all the Macy's salespeople were given a list of products to push (until Kris came along, but after all it was a fantasy story)? When sales people tell you something is popular and 'flying off the shelves', you should consider their motivation.

The objective reality is the sales figures. Mirrorless is ~25% of the ILC market and their sales are basically flat. Anyone who says different is selling something…in your case quite literally!

speaking of numbers.

there was a really curious mass shipment of MILC"s into Asia regions in november.

it's really curious because it was dramatic. up from around 60,000 units the prior year to over 180K last year.

doesn't seem to be attributed to any one vendor.. however the only two vendors I could see that could ship that much inventory are canon or nikon.

Source?

 

[eosuser1234]

http://www.everyothershot.com/will-the-eos-m4-be-full-frame/

Interesting read to show that a full frame EOS-M mirrorless is very likely a possibility, with a sensor being able to crop on its own depending on what lense is used (according to Canon patent jargon). I.E. Self cropping when used with EF-S lense with adaptor, or with EF-M (APS-C).

Another interesting note, EF-M mount (not current lenses) has been designed all along to work on full frame sensors. EF-M lenses can continue to be released without any difference between aps-c and full frame versions. I.E. a 50mm EF-M will be 50mm on full frame and 80mm on APS-C EF-M mounts. Just like EF lense work just fine on APS-C cameras. Those full frame EF-M lenses may come with a red square mark on them. EF= Red Dot, EF-M (Full frame)=Red Square.
EF-S (white square), EF-M (aps-c) White Dot.

4k is coming soon.

Canon Rumors should launch a contest who can guess the specs closest. And whoever wins, gets a EOS M new body.

 

[rrcphoto]

As usual around here, opinion trumps objective reality.

Tell you what. Come on over and I'll personally take you to the shops I mentioned and you too can ask any and all questions you like. That way you can verify for yourself the things you might hold in doubt.

Oh, I've talked to people in camera stores around here...usually the owners (a couple are personal friends). Canon's policies really don't favor brick and mortar stores, particularly small chains or solos. Things like volume invoice credits, prepayment requirements, and margin. Nikon is a little better, but not much. When you're the big fish in the pond, you can get away with it. Margins on MILCs and 3rd party lenses are higher, it's a way for those manufacturers to increase their market penetration.

Maybe you watched Miracle on 34th Street over the holidays? Remember how all the Macy's salespeople were given a list of products to push (until Kris came along, but after all it was a fantasy story)? When sales people tell you something is popular and 'flying off the shelves', you should consider their motivation.

The objective reality is the sales figures. Mirrorless is ~25% of the ILC market and their sales are basically flat. Anyone who says different is selling something…in your case quite literally!

speaking of numbers.

there was a really curious mass shipment of MILC"s into Asia regions in november.

it's really curious because it was dramatic. up from around 60,000 units the prior year to over 180K last year.

doesn't seem to be attributed to any one vendor.. however the only two vendors I could see that could ship that much inventory are canon or nikon.

Source?

CIPA data.