Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR2]

[Adelino]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

I will go out on a proverbial limb here:
Key (mount & sensor) features -

Mount - new (with EASY (meaning: works and works right, consistently, and not large), sturdy, weather-sealed and relatively cheap (for Canon) solution for EF and EF-s lens owners)

Sensor - 36.2 MP Backlit (BSO)

: 8)

Eye Control focus.

Superb ergonomics.

But I'm real hazy on the more precise differentiators between the 2 new Mirrorless FF models. I think the lower-end (more pro-sumer) model will probably only be somewhere between 28 & 32 MP's.

Fun times ahead!!!

Would Eye Control Focus work with an EVF?

 

[mph]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

This is all getting interesting. For a long time I've not been interested in mirrorless, but it's starting to make sense. The sensor wouldn't have to be much better for me to upgrade, though 30.4mp doesn't sound great.

I'm just hoping for a camera that's at least as big as a 5D. My 5DSR is small for my hands, and trying out the existing mirrorless makes me wonder how people can hold them all day. Once a lens is over 1 kg then it's really important to have a decent sized body.

Where is the thinking about mirrorless and AF these days? Is it time to sell my 7dii? (I'm not getting much use out of it now that I also have a 5dsr, though there are still times when I wish the AF in the 5dsr was better...)

 

[Aglet]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Canon made it's big on-chip ADC sensor migration already and that's really the only way you make a sensor to get a big jump in performance these days.

Canon sensor still trails Sony/Nikon in the base ISO dynamic range by a fair margin. Quite a bit of room for improvement.

e.g. At a per-pixel level of performance, base ISO of the 5d4 is very similar to the Pentax K-30 from 2012.
So, ya, there's plenty of room for Canon's sensor performance to improve. ;D

 

[-pekr-]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

What I wonder is, if the DPAF only AF is going to be satisfactory enough for at least moderately moving subjects? Has tried mostly only with 70D, which might be its first incarnation and just once with our new 5DIV, but did not find it being so effective in tracking, like in PDAF mode.

 

[edoorn]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Would Eye Control Focus work with an EVF?

It already does, with the M50.

About the tracking, there needs to be a substantial move here if Canon wants it to compete with the tracking of the new A camera's. I shot with the A9 for an evening on an indoor cycling track and for a very non-competent sports shooter (as in: no experience at all) I was surprised how easy it was to nail good shots.

 

[freejay]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Would Eye Control Focus work with an EVF?

It already does, with the M50.

No, no. Eye controlled focus is something totally different than eye tracking focus:

Controlled means: Where you look there's the focus.
Tracked means: The camera identifies eyes in the picture and sets the focus there.

So the M50 has eye tracking focus (although it can not continously track). It doesn't use the photographers eye to detect where to set the focus.

 

[Hector1970]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

I was using an a7IIIR the other night with an adapter and a Canon 24-105 lens
I was very impressed with it. The eye focusing is really good.
The silent mode is great too.
I find the Canon 5D IV very loud in quiet spaces.

It wouldn't bother me if Canon used the same sensor as the 5D IV as long as other aspects like focusing and frame rate increased. If its less than 10FPS I'd wonder what the point would be.
Its got to have some more bells and whistles than the 5D IV to be attractive.
Some sort of intelligent tracking of flying objects would be great.
I hope Canon can produce something at least as on par with Sony.
I think they have the tech to do it already

 

[RGF]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

I will go out on a proverbial limb here:
Key (mount & sensor) features -

Mount - new (with EASY (meaning: works and works right, consistently, and not large), sturdy, weather-sealed and relatively cheap (for Canon) solution for EF and EF-s lens owners)

Sensor - 36.2 MP Backlit (BSO)

: 8)

Eye Control focus.

Superb ergonomics.

But I'm real hazy on the more precise differentiators between the 2 new Mirrorless FF models. I think the lower-end (more pro-sumer) model will probably only be somewhere between 28 & 32 MP's.

Fun times ahead!!!

Would Eye Control Focus work with an EVF?

Eye control focus will require a large housing for the electronics. Don't think Canon will make it happen.

 

[RGF]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

wonder how the sensor will be improved. Small incremental or something new like dual pixel where each half has a different ISO?

 

[edoorn]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

No, no. Eye controlled focus is something totally different than eye tracking focus:

Controlled means: Where you look there's the focus.
Tracked means: The camera identifies eyes in the picture and sets the focus there.

So the M50 has eye tracking focus (although it can not continously track). It doesn't use the photographers eye to detect where to set the focus.

Aaah sorry, misread that. Yes that's a different thing. I suppose the FF mirrorless would have continues focus eye tracking. But eye controlled focus; I very much doubt it. Question is, will we need it? The M's have touch focus (so you can keep the eye on your EVF and select the focus point by touching the screen); I think if further improved this will be more effective (and of course, the camera should have a multicontroller/joystick too).

 

[Antono Refa]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

And if Canon actually did believe another 30 MP sensor would be perceived badly, DOA etc. in 2018, they'd just bump a res a bit to make it look newer. Go 36. Whatever.

When I was a kid in the seventies, I was ashamed that not all of the photos in my album were printed A4 size, nowadays everyone prints their kids' photos at least poster size, a camera with less than 36MP just wouldn't sell any more.

There isn't a current DSLR on the shelves that doesn't have sufficient resolution for the average photographer, why are people stuck on it?

 

[snoke]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

I have been told, but I'm not reporting on it until I'm sure.

Website is canonrumors, not canonfacts.

Where rumors?

 

[BeenThere]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Hi, it's my first post - although I've lurked for some time.

On the new sensor point, I don't pretend to understand the EXMORs and SNRs and ADCs, so I'm coming from a relative place of ignorance. But, in terms of having a different FF sensor to the 5D4, is it not possible that it is a similar sensor (with the same MP count) but simply updated for a native mirrorless environment? Is there anything that 'needs' to be done to an existing sensor designed for a SLR case to use it in a mirrorless case? Or it simply could be that they are turning over the full frame 5d4-level sensor to incorporate the cumulative advances to date a couple of years earlier because the FF mirrorless release is a big event.

Like everyone else I'm sweating on the mount issue - as a 6D owner I'm getting ready to turn over (and potentially upgrade) the body, but I really don't want to turn over my L (and 3rd party) lenses.

If the flange distance is the same then nothing should be needed to be changed sensor wise between SLR and MILC, if the MILC has a shorter flange distance then the sensor stack, which includes the microlens array on top of the sensor, would need to be changed to optimize the light path.

That’s why an EF adapter used on a short flange distance camera is not quite optimized for the match-up. Probably not a big deal, but would at least change the vignette characteristics.

 

[PureClassA]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Really excited by this news. I'd love to have a second camera body for video work to compliment the DX2 and also be my more compact "walking around" rig. As it stood I was thinking about getting a 6D2 to replace my wearing down 5D3. (But then I just bought the new 85L 1.4 instead...so money went bye-bye already) Key here is what sort of glass will we be looking at? How bulky will an EF lens plus the adapter be on this sucker? All questions we will have to wait til September to see answered.

 

[fullstop]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

yes. Eye Control Focus would work very well with an EVF, especially when it has 400+ finely selectable AF fields all over the frame, right to the edge.

i would like to get both:
1. Eye Control AF to select (initial) AF point without needing to fumble around with joystick nipple or thumb on touchscreen in front of my nose.
2. really smart AI-AF that detects what it is i habe selected in step 1 and then applies best suitable use case to focus it and keep it in focus, whichever way it moves - as long as it is visible anywhere in frame. no matter whether face/eye, cat, dog, soccer ball, soccer player, puck or hockey player, bitd on flight, airplane at aurshow, drummer at concert, race car on track, etc etc.
until i go back to step 1 and select a different subject/object by looking at it and blinking twice.

thats how i imagine an AF system to work in 2018. no hands, no nipples, no custom menu settings. just look, blink twice, focus it, track it, nail it.

 

[melgross]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Not buying it (this rumor).

- A

Reason:

Canon made it's big on-chip ADC sensor migration already and that's really the only way you make a sensor to get a big jump in performance these days. A next-gen 30 MP FF sensor that's only 2 years newer won't be anywhere near better enough to look meaningfully better than the 5D4 sensor. It would get similar sensor test scores and still be 30.4 MP --> folks will still see it as a 5D4 sensor. I don't think that's a bad thing, mind you, but going to the trouble of putting out a 3% better sensor at the same resolution to avoid looking bad... will just look bad. So why do it? Just put a 5D4 sensor in there. It wouldn't be dead on arrival at all (that entire statement screams fanboy / internet denizen to me).

And if Canon actually did believe another 30 MP sensor would be perceived badly, DOA etc. in 2018, they'd just bump a res a bit to make it look newer. Go 36. Whatever. Even a slight bump in MP will have a more positive initial market perception of 'being new' than a fraction of a stop high ISO or DR (that won't materialize until initial testing comes out months later) would be.

- A

I don’t understand why you think that way. I believe it would be the opposite to what you say. It’s possible that my 5Dmk IV has another 18 months left to it before a new one arrives. If Canon wants to promote a new line like this, it’s because they see where DSLR sales are going, just like everyone else.

If they’re smart, and they are, they will understand that at some point in the future, everything will be mirrorless. What better way to begin this FF line with an even better sensor? If they do it well, then a good adapter from Canon will allow their current lenses to work without compromise, while working on a new line, assuming they are coming out with a new mount.

If this has the same sensor as my 5D my IV, I won’t be interested. But if is has a noticeably better one, then I might just part with the cash, as long as that adapter really is good. I think a lot of others may feel the same way. And people here know how I fell about a better sensor.

 

[3kramd5]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

thats how i imagine an AF system to work in 2018. no hands, no nipples, no custom menu settings. just look, blink twice, focus it, track it, nail it.

It’s a nice imagination, I think we are years away from that type of capability in a portable camera, if not decades. Consider: in 2018 even the knowledge base and processing/programming power of google can not reliably recognize subjects.

 

[fullstop]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

"any object" maybe.
"100 most commonly photographed shapes/objects": today. Would be happy with an implementation limited to those for the moment.
Eye Control AF: Canon, 1990s.

It's really all there in 2018. Just stupid "conservative Canon" does not put it into their cameras. And many customers don't push for it but rather accept sub-par stuff, pay up and even pro-actively defend Canon for their lack of truly USEFUL, innovative features.

 

[dak723]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

...
If this has the same sensor as my 5D my IV, I won’t be interested. But if is has a noticeably better one, then I might just part with the cash, as long as that adapter really is good. I think a lot of others may feel the same way. And people here know how I fell about a better sensor.

The problem is that there is no technology today that will give you a "noticeably better" sensor. I think that is the point some folks are trying to make. No one can be sure, of course, but even the famed Sony FF sensors have not improved any noticeable amount in now their 3rd generation.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

It’s possible that my 5Dmk IV has another 18 months left to it before a new one arrives.

That would mean that the 5D4 Mark IV has less than a 3.5 year product lifecycle. Canon highly likely will take longer than that -- both based on past track record and the fact that they have so many camera lines to maintain these days.

And I stand by my Page 1 post on this: Canon could put a new sensor in there, but if it's the same resolution and packs the same DPAF, (a) it will just look like the same sensor as the 5D4 from a top-line spec standpoint and (b) it will likely be only marginally better. See plots on Page 2 for why I feel that way.

I would love to be wrong here, don't misunderstand me. It'd would be great for a sweet new sensor to surpass our expectations.

- A