Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR2]

Orangutan

EOS 5D Mark IV
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Antono Refa said:
2. The 5DmkIV sensor is good enough for a FF MILC to succeed if it had one, e.g. due to other features.

Not necessarily. A mirrorless sensor needs to be "on" (capturing & processing data) much more than a DSLR sensor, so it needs to be particularly good at dissipating heat. It's possible the 5D4 sensor is not able to do that.
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Antono Refa said:
ahsanford said:
Antono Refa said:
And there I though mirrorless was about

1. Not having a mirror, with all the mechanics that go with it, e.g. no blackout, no AFMA, no failure, and quieter operation.

2. Possibly smaller & lighter camera, as there's no space requirement for mirror mechanism.

3. Possibly more frames per second, as the bottleneck of mirror movement is gone.

4. Being able to see how the photo would look before pressing the shutter.

5. Zebras & live histogram.

6. More AF points and spread.

But sure, people care about the sensor. Lets assume people would rather have the same DSLR with a new sensor over a new MILC with an old sensor, because perception and reasons.

I'm lost with your point. This thread isn't about the upsides of mirrorless (nice list, agree) -- it's about the sensor going into that mirrorless body.

The parable of the blind men and the elephant would be appropriate here.

Yes, the thread is all about the sensor, but the camera isn't.

ahsanford said:
Are you saying that the sensor doesn't matter much -- the mirrorless goodies are what we should be talking about?

I'm saying two things:

1. We should be talking about the sensor, at least in this thread, but we shouldn't be evaluating the whole camera based on it.

2. The 5DmkIV sensor is good enough for a FF MILC to succeed if it had one, e.g. due to other features.

Discussions of differences among sensors become tedious quickly when little or no attempt is made to evaluate the practical importance of those differences. This seems especially so in the context of the rollout of Canon's first fullframe mirrorless camera(s) when there are so many other things involved.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Antono Refa said:
I'm saying two things:

1. We should be talking about the sensor, at least in this thread, but we shouldn't be evaluating the whole camera based on it.

2. The 5DmkIV sensor is good enough for a FF MILC to succeed if it had one, e.g. due to other features.

Thank you. 100% agree.

- A
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

fullstop said:
"any object" maybe.
"100 most commonly photographed shapes/objects": today. Would be happy with an implementation limited to those for the moment.
Eye Control AF: Canon, 1990s.

It's really all there in 2018. Just stupid "conservative Canon" does not put it into their cameras. And many customers don't push for it but rather accept sub-par stuff, pay up and even pro-actively defend Canon for their lack of truly USEFUL, innovative features.

I'm not a computer engineer, but even 100 seems a bit much. These are by-and-large application specific processors, running camera functions, limited in data capacity, and cooled passively. Comparatively, the "AI" available in phones, tablets, and devices like Google Home and Alexa runs on a massive server somewhere with probably petabytes of source data managed by farms of processors. You could connect a camera the way a phone is, but the latency would be too much for effective AF.

An example of what's possible is face priority. My experience with the A7Rii was that when there were about 4 or 5 subjects in frame, it stopped being able to find those I've told it to prioritize, though it could still recognize "face-like" things. It would seem that is a limitation of the processing available.

What I think I'd prefer to see is an environment where I can teach the camera what I want, rather than some arbitrary most-photographed list from the manufacturer. I often go out to shoot peregrines. The rock where I know they roost is also home to seagulls, who outnumber the falcons probably 1000:1. I'd like to be able to load a couple thousand images of peregrine falcons into some software, have it build algorithms to recognize their specific shapes, patterns, etc., and then pop that into my camera in a high-speed memory slot, so the camera looks for the falcons rather than anything generically bird-like (like seagulls or fixed-wing airplanes).

Also, doing this really well will require extremely high sensor readout. In the 135-format, I think sony's A9 sensor reads the quickest, at ~120Hz. Most everything else is way behind, like their A7R3 in the ballpark of 30Hz. Of course, that read speed might be traded for dynamic range by way of heat-induced noise, but personally for most of what I shoot 12-ish stops is generally adequate.
 

cpsico

EOS RP
Mar 27, 2011
371
25
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

If it comes with a fully functioning adapter for EF Lenses I am very interested!
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

@3kramd5
wow, your peregrine falcon criteria are much tougher than with regards "AI-AF". :)
i would be happy already if an expensive Canon camera in 2018 could reliably auto-track "any sort of flying object" after i initially select it by tapping on touchscreen ... or by looking at it in viewfinder and double-blink "ECF 2.0" :)).

AI-driven "auto-spotting and selective tracking of specific bird species" is something even i'd be willing to wait for another year or two until Mark II iteration of "AI-AF". :)

like most (all?) Canon EOS cameras, my 5D3 has "AI-AF"-mode as 3rd AF-mode option other than "one-shot AF" and "servo-AF". according to manual this AI-AF mode should "auto-detect subject motion in frame and use servo-AF to track subject". well, it certainly does NOT work in practice, not even for something as simple as a *non-erratically moving, single, big, contrasty airliner against a clear blue sky*. not to even think about spmething more challengibg like a "dragonfly erratically moving over pond against busy background with a 300/4 close to MFD".

i call "AI-AF" mode as it has been implemented for many years in all/most Canon cameras totally and utterly useless. nobody i know of uses it due to this. it is a prime example for Canon being "pseodo-innovative" with "paper-spec gadgetry". feature". Definitely one more area with lots of room for improvement for Canon (and entire industry).
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

fullstop said:
@3kramd5
wow, your peregrine falcon criteria are much tougher than with regards "AI-AF". :)
i would be happy already if an expensive Canon camera in 2018 could reliably auto-track "any sort of flying object" after i initially select it by tapping on touchscreen ... or by looking at it in viewfinder and double-blink "ECF 2.0" :)).

AI-driven "auto-spotting and selective tracking of specific bird species" is something even i'd be willing to wait for another year or two until Mark II iteration of "AI-AF". :)

like most (all?) Canon EOS cameras, my 5D3 has "AI-AF"-mode as 3rd AF-mode option other than "one-shot AF" and "servo-AF". according to manual this AI-AF mode should "auto-detect subject motion in frame and use servo-AF to track subject". well, it certainly does NOT work in practice, not even for something as simple as a *non-erratically moving, single, big, contrasty airliner against a clear blue sky*. not to even think about spmething more challengibg like a "dragonfly erratically moving over pond against busy background with a 300/4 close to MFD".

i call "AI-AF" mode as it has been implemented for many years in all/most Canon cameras totally and utterly useless. nobody i know of uses it due to this. it is a prime example for Canon being "pseodo-innovative" with "paper-spec gadgetry". feature". Definitely one more area with lots of room for improvement for Canon (and entire industry).

And how far away was this big airliner and what lens were you using?
 

snoke

EOS RP
Jul 20, 2017
306
47
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
CanonFanBoy said:
takesome1 said:
I am confused. Is the Canon Know for Sure site now? :eek:

To give it a CR3, yup. He's got to guard his credibility. Smart.

Agree 100%, but not just for CR2 / CR3 reasons.

This FF mirrorless mount is probably the most closely guarded Canon secret that CR's ever tried to discover. I would be cautious as hell to definitively say what the mount is unless:

  • Legit marketing collaterals surface (brochure, slide deck, photos, etc.)

  • An unmistakable inventory tell surfaces, e.g. "EF-X 35 f/1.4L IS USM" surfaces in a Best Buy inventory system.

  • A test camera is clearly spotted in the wild.

And even then CR will have to tread carefully as Canon may be planning a surprise announcement of two FF mirrorless cameras -- one with thin and one with EF mounts. Some knucklehead may see a CR3 of a thin mount coming, sell all of his EF glass immediately 'because EF is going away and I need to get ahead of the EF fire sales' ::) only to see Canon offer an EF mount variant alongside it on day one.

- A

Stop. You talk silly.

Two reason only not talk about rumor: rumor all different and money.

When all rumor different, publish rumor tell Canon who leak.

Money.

Write story about rumor, get 100 clicks.
Now write rumor story, get 200 clicks.
Total 300 clicks.

Only write rumor story, only get 200 clicks.
 

BeenThere

EOS R
CR Pro
Sep 4, 2012
1,236
662
Eastern Shore
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

The CR guy can use any criteria he wants for publishing Canon Rumors. He has been doing a fine job so far. Inside existing threads the discussions go off in every possible direction, frequently with thought and ideas completely fabricated from the author’s imagination. If you want to call these fabrications rumors, then go ahead, but I believe trusted sources make better rumors and the rest is just imaginative speculation.
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Thought for the day. The longer we go without a CR3 about a new lens mount, the more likely is is that there will be no new lens mount. The current probability of their being a new mount is between 1 and 0, but it is dropping. On the other hand, if my logic is correct, the probability of there being a CR3 tomorrow announcing a new lens mount is higher than for any day so far.
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Quarkcharmed said:
Will there be the AA filter?..

It may depend on how serious Canon is about video with this camera. My guess is it will have an AA filter
 

sdz

EOS RP
Sep 13, 2016
253
194
Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

The new mount? Same as the old mounts!

https://www.canonnews.com/canon-patent-application-the-first-sniff-of-a-new-mount-for-canon
 

Cthulhu

EOS 90D
Apr 6, 2016
137
0
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

3kramd5 said:
rrcphoto said:
Canon Rumors said:
The 30.4mp sensor (which we haven’t confirmed with certainty) will be “very different than what is found in the EOS 5D Mark IV”.

this stands to reason. Canon's been happily applying for WAY too many advanced sensor patents to not pull a rabbit out of a hat and skip a few EXMOR generations and catch up quickly.

Patents don’t necessarily translate into production, but didn’t they already essentially catch up (5D4)?

No
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Cthulhu said:
3kramd5 said:
rrcphoto said:
Canon Rumors said:
The 30.4mp sensor (which we haven’t confirmed with certainty) will be “very different than what is found in the EOS 5D Mark IV”.

this stands to reason. Canon's been happily applying for WAY too many advanced sensor patents to not pull a rabbit out of a hat and skip a few EXMOR generations and catch up quickly.

Patents don’t necessarily translate into production, but didn’t they already essentially catch up (5D4)?

No

Please elaborate.
 

jeanluc

EOS 90D
Oct 29, 2012
196
108
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

If the new FF mirrorless is in fact going to have the same resolution as my 5d4, then I sure hope it has
A) a little better DR ( 5d4 is very good, but it’s 2 years old and the competition is better)
B) no AA filter to compensate a bit for no increase in resolution
C) tilty flippy screen (I’m 6’5)
D) some painless way to use our EF Glass

Of the 5 people I know who jumped from Canon to Sony or Nikon,
all did so to get more resolution in a camera a lot more modern than the
5dsr. No one disliked their canon gear, it just is a generation behind sensor wise. Interestingly
4 of those guys would have just bought a 5dsr Mark 2 with up to date sensor if there was one.
No real reason for the to “go mirror less “ other than that.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,727
2,159
Alberta, Canada
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Seems there are always people jockeying for the top spot in gear, probably wasting a fair bit of money and for what? Isn't a photo the desired outcome and proof of superiority? I seldom see a photo in these gear threads and I think I know why. ;)

Jack
 

Cthulhu

EOS 90D
Apr 6, 2016
137
0
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

3kramd5 said:
Cthulhu said:
3kramd5 said:
rrcphoto said:
Canon Rumors said:
The 30.4mp sensor (which we haven’t confirmed with certainty) will be “very different than what is found in the EOS 5D Mark IV”.

this stands to reason. Canon's been happily applying for WAY too many advanced sensor patents to not pull a rabbit out of a hat and skip a few EXMOR generations and catch up quickly.

Patents don’t necessarily translate into production, but didn’t they already essentially catch up (5D4)?

No

Please elaborate.

In the rare occasion where Canon comes within 1ev of sony, it still has less detail and sharpness.
 

zim

EOS 5D Mark IV
CR Pro
Oct 18, 2011
2,123
315
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Jack Douglas said:
Seems there are always people jockeying for the top spot in gear, probably wasting a fair bit of money and for what? Isn't a photo the desired outcome and proof of superiority? I seldom see a photo in these gear threads and I think I know why. ;)

Jack

I've often thought that there should be some kind of relationship between posting allowance and photos posted. I'd find that an easier way of judging experience and motive.
anyone here can look at my images and know how to pitch replies :eek: ;D
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,318
505
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Cthulhu said:
3kramd5 said:
Cthulhu said:
3kramd5 said:
rrcphoto said:
Canon Rumors said:
The 30.4mp sensor (which we haven’t confirmed with certainty) will be “very different than what is found in the EOS 5D Mark IV”.

this stands to reason. Canon's been happily applying for WAY too many advanced sensor patents to not pull a rabbit out of a hat and skip a few EXMOR generations and catch up quickly.

Patents don’t necessarily translate into production, but didn’t they already essentially catch up (5D4)?

No

Please elaborate.

In the rare occasion where Canon comes within 1ev of sony, it still has less detail and sharpness.

are you referring to ooc jpegs?
Similar MP sensors?
 
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