Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR2]

melgross

EOS RP
Nov 2, 2016
704
461
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
melgross said:
It’s possible that my 5Dmk IV has another 18 months left to it before a new one arrives.

That would mean that the 5D4 Mark IV has less than a 3.5 year product lifecycle. Canon highly likely will take longer than that -- both based on past track record and the fact that they have so many camera lines to maintain these days.

And I stand by my Page 1 post on this: Canon could put a new sensor in there, but if it's the same resolution and packs the same DPAF, (a) it will just look like the same sensor as the 5D4 from a top-line spec standpoint and (b) it will likely be only marginally better. See plots on Page 2 for why I feel that way.

I would love to be wrong here, don't misunderstand me. It'd would be great for a sweet new sensor to surpass our expectations.

- A

I understand what you’re saying about the number of lines. But it could also be that the long time between the III and the IV was an aberration. Everything doesn’t look to be extending that much.

But, this is a major new line for Canon. It’s the future for them, and they know it. Going back to the interview early this year, I think it was, when Canon said, and we already discussed this elsewhere, that they were moving forward to EXTEND their lead, by increasing R&D, marketing and by other methods, it seems to me that it’s only logical that they would be thinking that they want to move out in front on this. One way to do that is to give a reason to move, other than for size and weight, which are things most full time pros, and many advanced amateurs, don’t care that much about. I know I don’t, and I’m retired.

If someone wants a small and light mirrorless model, they can buy an aps-c model. After all, that’s why they exist, and Canon is being very successful with the M line.
 

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
1,892
684
Davidson, NC
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

3kramd5 said:
fullstop said:
thats how i imagine an AF system to work in 2018. no hands, no nipples, no custom menu settings. just look, blink twice, focus it, track it, nail it.

It’s a nice imagination, I think we are years away from that type of capability in a portable camera, if not decades. Consider: in 2018 even the knowledge base and processing/programming power of google can not reliably recognize subjects.

I got quite excited reading in some past thread about cameras that had eye focus. I was disillusioned when I discovered they were talking about just tracking rather than choice of focus points. As for nipples, I hadn't even considered that a camera could track them.
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

stevelee said:
3kramd5 said:
fullstop said:
thats how i imagine an AF system to work in 2018. no hands, no nipples, no custom menu settings. just look, blink twice, focus it, track it, nail it.

It’s a nice imagination, I think we are years away from that type of capability in a portable camera, if not decades. Consider: in 2018 even the knowledge base and processing/programming power of google can not reliably recognize subjects.

I got quite excited reading in some past thread about cameras that had eye focus. I was disillusioned when I discovered they were talking about just tracking rather than choice of focus points. As for nipples, I hadn't even considered that a camera could track them.

I have a canon which is advertised as eye controlled AF selection. It never works very well, but it’s old and perhaps could be better implemented today.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

I have a Canon EOS 30 / Elan 7E with Eye Control AF and it works very well. Even when I wear glasses. But of course the system would need an update/upgrade into 2018.
 

photonius

EOS RP
Jul 13, 2013
242
20
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

the reason for the new sensor could simply be that they want to get proper 4K video without the crop factor.
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

fullstop said:
I have a Canon EOS 30 / Elan 7E with Eye Control AF and it works very well. Even when I wear glasses. But of course the system would need an update/upgrade into 2018.

I have the sane one and it is very unreliable. Maybe there’s something wrong with it.
 

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,245
403
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
And I stand by my Page 1 post on this: Canon could put a new sensor in there, but if it's the same resolution and packs the same DPAF, (a) it will just look like the same sensor as the 5D4 from a top-line spec standpoint and (b) it will likely be only marginally better. See plots on Page 2 for why I feel that way.

And there I though mirrorless was about

1. Not having a mirror, with all the mechanics that go with it, e.g. no blackout, no AFMA, no failure, and quieter operation.

2. Possibly smaller & lighter camera, as there's no space requirement for mirror mechanism.

3. Possibly more frames per second, as the bottleneck of mirror movement is gone.

4. Being able to see how the photo would look before pressing the shutter.

5. Zebras & live histogram.

6. More AF points and spread.

But sure, people care about the sensor. Lets assume people would rather have the same DSLR with a new sensor over a new MILC with an old sensor, because perception and reasons.
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Antono Refa said:
ahsanford said:
And I stand by my Page 1 post on this: Canon could put a new sensor in there, but if it's the same resolution and packs the same DPAF, (a) it will just look like the same sensor as the 5D4 from a top-line spec standpoint and (b) it will likely be only marginally better. See plots on Page 2 for why I feel that way.

And there I though mirrorless was about

1. Not having a mirror, with all the mechanics that go with it, e.g. no blackout, no AFMA, no failure, and quieter operation.

No failure? No way.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

melgross said:
I understand what you’re saying about the number of lines. But it could also be that the long time between the III and the IV was an aberration. Everything doesn’t look to be extending that much.

The long time was not an aberration -- though an earthquake (or tsunami?) did occur to delay companies a spell over that period if I recall. Please head to the chart at Northlight and identify and see the last time Canon 'sequeled' a camera line faster than the generation that came before:

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/rumours-page/
(pan down about half way)

It has been about 10 years since Canon has gone faster than the camera that came before. Cycles are either maintained or lengthened every single time.

Further, in the case of FF cameras, Canon has been locked in to a cadence of 1DX --> 5D --> 6D for two cycles now, so for a 5D4 to come more quickly, one would imagine the 1DX3 would be accelerated as well.

There are a few instances where it might make sense for Canon speed up a line faster than its predecessor, but it's not the 5D# line:

  • 7D: the 7D1 lifecycle was comically long. We can attribute that to a fancy firmware update that Canon gave that line, but I can't help but wonder if Nikon abandoning that D300/s market segment for so long had something to do with it. So a 7D3 coming faster than 5+ years after the 7D2 would be plausible as a response to the D500.

  • The 5DS rather famously doesn't fit that the FF cadence I listed above (it is staggered like the Euros vs. World Cup, winter vs. summer olympics, etc.), and that creates some feature-set envy between the 5D# and 5DS lines. Feature set envy can be good and bad if both live in similar price points, but there's some logic to accelerated the 5DS2 to get it more in line with the FF waterfall of releases so that folskwith $3500+ in their pockets can choose 'all-around' or 'detail' with the same latest supporting technology.

- A
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Antono Refa said:
And there I though mirrorless was about

1. Not having a mirror, with all the mechanics that go with it, e.g. no blackout, no AFMA, no failure, and quieter operation.

2. Possibly smaller & lighter camera, as there's no space requirement for mirror mechanism.

3. Possibly more frames per second, as the bottleneck of mirror movement is gone.

4. Being able to see how the photo would look before pressing the shutter.

5. Zebras & live histogram.

6. More AF points and spread.

But sure, people care about the sensor. Lets assume people would rather have the same DSLR with a new sensor over a new MILC with an old sensor, because perception and reasons.

I'm lost with your point. This thread isn't about the upsides of mirrorless (nice list, agree) -- it's about the sensor going into that mirrorless body.

Are you saying that the sensor doesn't matter much -- the mirrorless goodies are what we should be talking about?

(Forgive me, I'm just trying to understand your post.)

- A
 

sebasan

EOS M6 Mark II
Mar 12, 2016
97
45
sebasantos.1x.com
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Amazing amount of sony cameras (I know, it doesn't have anything to match with the topic)
 

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tmc784

Just press down the shutter.
Apr 1, 2018
81
24
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

I don't care about rumors, before I buy a new product, I must have to wait for reviews from source of professional photographers. And final decision is depend on my checking account balance. :p
 

takesome1

EOS R
Aug 23, 2013
1,492
126
100
Licking, Missouri
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Canon Rumors said:
ahsanford said:
fullstop said:
I find it rather strange that none of all those sources can tell anything about the most crucial element: lens mount. There must be quite a number of people who know this by now.

All day. This.

- A

I have been told, but I'm not reporting on it until I'm sure.

I am confused. Is the Canon Know for Sure site now? :eek:
 

melgross

EOS RP
Nov 2, 2016
704
461
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
melgross said:
I understand what you’re saying about the number of lines. But it could also be that the long time between the III and the IV was an aberration. Everything doesn’t look to be extending that much.

The long time was not an aberration -- though an earthquake (or tsunami?) did occur to delay companies a spell over that period if I recall. Please head to the chart at Northlight and identify and see the last time Canon 'sequeled' a camera line faster than the generation that came before:

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/rumours-page/
(pan down about half way)

It has been about 10 years since Canon has gone faster than the camera that came before. Cycles are either maintained or lengthened every single time.

Further, in the case of FF cameras, Canon has been locked in to a cadence of 1DX --> 5D --> 6D for two cycles now, so for a 5D4 to come more quickly, one would imagine the 1DX3 would be accelerated as well.

There are a few instances where it might make sense for Canon speed up a line faster than its predecessor, but it's not the 5D# line:

  • 7D: the 7D1 lifecycle was comically long. We can attribute that to a fancy firmware update that Canon gave that line, but I can't help but wonder if Nikon abandoning that D300/s market segment for so long had something to do with it. So a 7D3 coming faster than 5+ years after the 7D2 would be plausible as a response to the D500.

  • The 5DS rather famously doesn't fit that the FF cadence I listed above (it is staggered like the Euros vs. World Cup, winter vs. summer olympics, etc.), and that creates some feature-set envy between the 5D# and 5DS lines. Feature set envy can be good and bad if both live in similar price points, but there's some logic to accelerated the 5DS2 to get it more in line with the FF waterfall of releases so that folskwith $3500+ in their pockets can choose 'all-around' or 'detail' with the same latest supporting technology.

- A

I don’t say that they didn’t lengthen it. I agree with that. But I’m saying that the time from the III to the IV seems longer than the average, and so it might be aberrant. If you look at the 5D to 5mk II Times, which were about the same, and then at the III to IV time, it’s about double. Canon was the only manufacturer who wasn’t effected by the weather. Besides, 18 months was just a number I picked because it seemed about right. It wasn’t a hard date estimate.
 

CanonFanBoy

Purple
CR Pro
Jan 28, 2015
5,325
3,643
Irving, Texas
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

takesome1 said:
Canon Rumors said:
ahsanford said:
fullstop said:
I find it rather strange that none of all those sources can tell anything about the most crucial element: lens mount. There must be quite a number of people who know this by now.

All day. This.

- A

I have been told, but I'm not reporting on it until I'm sure.

I am confused. Is the Canon Know for Sure site now? :eek:

To give it a CR3, yup. He's got to guard his credibility. Smart.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

CanonFanBoy said:
takesome1 said:
I am confused. Is the Canon Know for Sure site now? :eek:

To give it a CR3, yup. He's got to guard his credibility. Smart.

Agree 100%, but not just for CR2 / CR3 reasons.

This FF mirrorless mount is probably the most closely guarded Canon secret that CR's ever tried to discover. I would be cautious as hell to definitively say what the mount is unless:

  • Legit marketing collaterals surface (brochure, slide deck, photos, etc.)

  • An unmistakable inventory tell surfaces, e.g. "EF-X 35 f/1.4L IS USM" surfaces in a Best Buy inventory system.

  • A test camera is clearly spotted in the wild.

And even then CR will have to tread carefully as Canon may be planning a surprise announcement of two FF mirrorless cameras -- one with thin and one with EF mounts. Some knucklehead may see a CR3 of a thin mount coming, sell all of his EF glass immediately 'because EF is going away and I need to get ahead of the EF fire sales' ::) only to see Canon offer an EF mount variant alongside it on day one.

- A
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

CanonFanBoy said:
takesome1 said:
Canon Rumors said:
ahsanford said:
fullstop said:
I find it rather strange that none of all those sources can tell anything about the most crucial element: lens mount. There must be quite a number of people who know this by now.

All day. This.

- A

I have been told, but I'm not reporting on it until I'm sure.

I am confused. Is the Canon Know for Sure site now? :eek:

To give it a CR3, yup. He's got to guard his credibility. Smart.

If I've followed the bidding, there are rumors of the impending arrival of at least 3 cameras, any of which might come with an EF mount, an M mount, or some other sort of mount, and could be either fullframe or crop, OVF or EVF. An then there things like the 5DS replacement a little further into the future. I can see where CR guy might want be a little cautious. Just staying on the same songsheet with whoever was confiding in you could be a challenge, let alone assessing the plausibility of what you were being told.
 

Adelino

EOS RP
Jan 21, 2015
372
244
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
CanonFanBoy said:
takesome1 said:
I am confused. Is the Canon Know for Sure site now? :eek:

To give it a CR3, yup. He's got to guard his credibility. Smart.

Agree 100%, but not just for CR2 / CR3 reasons.

This FF mirrorless mount is probably the most closely guarded Canon secret that CR's ever tried to discover. I would be cautious as hell to definitively say what the mount is unless:

  • Legit marketing collaterals surface (brochure, slide deck, photos, etc.)

  • An unmistakable inventory tell surfaces, e.g. "EF-X 35 f/1.4L IS USM" surfaces in a Best Buy inventory system.

  • A test camera is clearly spotted in the wild.

And even then CR will have to tread carefully as Canon may be planning a surprise announcement of two FF mirrorless cameras -- one with thin and one with EF mounts. Some knucklehead may see a CR3 of a thin mount coming, sell all of his EF glass immediately 'because EF is going away and I need to get ahead of the EF fire sales' ::) only to see Canon offer an EF mount variant alongside it on day one.

- A

You are right on! I would not be surprised with two mounts. Maybe that is the sexy solution....
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

Adelino said:
You are right on! I would not be surprised with two mounts. Maybe that is the sexy solution....

Again: please take part in the polls, which I believe will close in a few days:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=35293.msg727180#msg727180
(second poll is linked as the first discussion post below this poll.)


- A
 

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,245
403
Re: Canon's First Full Frame Mirrorless Won't Have the Exact Same Sensors as the EOS 5D Mark IV. [CR

ahsanford said:
Antono Refa said:
And there I though mirrorless was about

1. Not having a mirror, with all the mechanics that go with it, e.g. no blackout, no AFMA, no failure, and quieter operation.

2. Possibly smaller & lighter camera, as there's no space requirement for mirror mechanism.

3. Possibly more frames per second, as the bottleneck of mirror movement is gone.

4. Being able to see how the photo would look before pressing the shutter.

5. Zebras & live histogram.

6. More AF points and spread.

But sure, people care about the sensor. Lets assume people would rather have the same DSLR with a new sensor over a new MILC with an old sensor, because perception and reasons.

I'm lost with your point. This thread isn't about the upsides of mirrorless (nice list, agree) -- it's about the sensor going into that mirrorless body.

The parable of the blind men and the elephant would be appropriate here.

Yes, the thread is all about the sensor, but the camera isn't.

ahsanford said:
Are you saying that the sensor doesn't matter much -- the mirrorless goodies are what we should be talking about?

I'm saying two things:

1. We should be talking about the sensor, at least in this thread, but we shouldn't be evaluating the whole camera based on it.

2. The 5DmkIV sensor is good enough for a FF MILC to succeed if it had one, e.g. due to other features.
 
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