EOS 6D Mark II To Shrink & Move Upmarket [CR2]

[Sith Zombie]

They might try to get away with a "early adopters" premium for 6d2 pre-orders, but I'd be very surprised if the 6d2 would stay above the current price level for a longer time.
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These are my thoughts too, they'll probably price it a bit too high at first but after the early adopters have bought it, the main market will decide what they are willing to pay and we'll see the price fall.

 

[Luds34]

I don't get all of this cynicism. The 6D2 doesn't even exist yet, so the price and features are unknown. All we have is a rumor. But people are already blaming Canon for doing something wrong.

Disclaimer: I'm shooting Canon for decades, and it's "my brand".

Having said that, imho Canon has worked hard to get this reputation. It really depends on the specific equipment one owns, but if you're unlucky and are not a premium customer, you could be affected by their marketing policy... I cannot count the times when I though of Canon b/c my 60d doesn't have afma at a €1000 price point. Ymmv. Magic Lantern to the rescue!

At the same time, forums are full of people wanting this or that improvement, but not wanting to pay for it.

That's how a market system works, supply and demand. It's not up to the demand to think for the supply and vice versa. Last not least, there's tech evolution so the "natural" progression is for prices to drop for the same thing or get more "value" for the same price.

+1 Canon working hard for this reputation is spot on IMO.

You have a camera, that until recently had an MSRP in the $1800 range. 1/4000 vs 1/8000 cost them nothing. And was 1/8000 really going to infringe on the 5D3? Of course now. Same with the focus system. Could they have at least made the outter points cross type? I mean again, a camera that is pushing $2k and has a focus system on par with a Canon T2i. An entry level consumer camera from 5 years ago? Rubbish.

Obviously Canon was (maybe still is) the market leader with little competition 10, 15 years ago. So this lead to a bit of arrogance on their part I'm sure, completely understandable as it happens in business over and over again in history. It is just now the competition has caught up and is making Canon look a little less "plugged in" to the market.

Look at the lack of EF-S primes. Why can't we get a fast, ~35mm equivalent prime on a rebel after all these years? Look at what Fuji has done in the past few years.

And Sony, I am no fan of their system, but I applaud their effort, throwing everything they can into a camera, trying to find a niche, enter the market. You don't see them crippling their cameras intentional to maintain market segmentation.

I better be careful, I feel like I'm starting to step on to a soap box.

I get the impression though that Canon is "getting it" (M3 as an example) and I would be surprised if the next 6D is "crippled" as the current one is. I understand they are a "big ship" and can't turn on a dime. However, they have had a few years now to start turning the wheel here. Time to get on it a little bit.

 

[Luds34]

They might try to get away with a "early adopters" premium for 6d2 pre-orders, but I'd be very surprised if the 6d2 would stay above the current price level for a longer time.

These are my thoughts too, they'll probably price it a bit too high at first but after the early adopters have bought it, the main market will decide what they are willing to pay and we'll see the price fall.
[/quote]

Canon's recent products have debuted at very respectable prices. I'm thinking 16-35 f/4L IS, the 7D mark 2, even the 100-400 mark 2. Going back a little bit more, the new 35mm f/2 IS debuting at $800 (if I recall correctly) was priced a bit high, especially considering the excellent Sigma 35mm Art was right there.

I can't picture the 6D2 being north of $2k, and if it is, it won't be for very long.

 

[LonelyBoy]

I don't get all of this cynicism. The 6D2 doesn't even exist yet, so the price and features are unknown. All we have is a rumor. But people are already blaming Canon for doing something wrong.

"Canon never misses an opportunity to squeeze a few more dollars" is the distinctly glass-is-half-empty view of everything. It means that if they improve a camera or lens from one model to the next and charge more for the improved model, they've done something wrong. They never get credit for the improvement, only blame for the price increase.

At the same time, forums are full of people wanting this or that improvement, but not wanting to pay for it. Someone is always blaming Canon for not building the exact camera they want at the exact price they want to pay.

Very much this, and especially your last paragraph.

It's a classic case of damned if they do, damned if they don't - when Canon makes a budget FF DSLR, people slam them for having an FF body that isn't packed with all the features they want. If Canon adds features to that body and raises the price, people whine that Canon isn't offering a budget FF DSLR.

 

[Ladislav]

Even landscape / travel camera deservers more than one useful focus point and 1/8000 shutter speed - especially with the price tag.

I completely agree with the price tag vs. features, but strictly speaking you don't "need" 1/8ks for travel and tourism, it's just one stop earlier to use the nd filter.

For motion stopping purposes, 1/4k and 1/8k imho hardly make any difference, what's really for stopping a bullet in motion are electronic shutters reaching far faster shutter speeds. But if I remember correctly, Canon might implement electronic shutter even for their old-school dslrs with the 5d4 and later.

I'd like better weatherproofing in the next 6D.

That is a very good requirement for travel camera. I don't trust weatherproofing of current model.

And you're right not to do so, mine already broke down once after some rain (though it survived some others before and after after immediately drying).

However, "travel" doesn't equal "outdoors" and you'll be just fine with the current sealing for most tourism purposes. Canon will be very careful not to cross into the domain of their premium models, after all the actually working sealing is a big selling point for the 1d series and - less so - for the 5d.

If you want "sealed" and "affordable", look for Pentax, and as Canon won't catch up concerning this combination my guess is that they won't even try.

Are you sure that 1/4k and 1/8k is not already an electronic shutter? It seems to me quite unrealistic to make a mechanical shutter which can move in such a speed in a small device like DSLR. My assumption was that omitting 1/8k is currently a software choice.

If a travel camera is meant to be a tourist camera, than I understand your statement about weatherproofing but I didn't get that impression when I saw marketing material for 6D. It really looked like a camera for outdoor photography where a bad weather is part of the experience. Probably my misunderstanding. Anyway I can confirm that 6D with Tamron 24-70 VC is not weatherproof combo at all. The first try to expose it to a light rain caused quick condensation in the lens. The second try (not with the same lens) caused camera error with a message to clean contacts with a lens.

I'm very satisfied with my 6D. I'm not among those who continuously complains about switching to other manufacturer. I just see how much was 6D ripped off in some areas to not compete with higher models but it actually made it worse in those areas than much cheaper models. Eg. 10 of 11 AF points are worse than all 9 AF points on my previous Canon 650D which cost third the price. 1/8k shutter is available in cheaper bodies like 50D and 60D.

Honestly any solution which involves switching a vendor and replacing not only body but also lenses, is not affordable any more.

 

[LonelyBoy]

+1 Canon working hard for this reputation is spot on IMO.

You have a camera, that until recently had an MSRP in the $1800 range. 1/4000 vs 1/8000 cost them nothing. And was 1/8000 really going to infringe on the 5D3? Of course now. Same with the focus system. Could they have at least made the outter points cross type? I mean again, a camera that is pushing $2k and has a focus system on par with a Canon T2i. An entry level consumer camera from 5 years ago? Rubbish.

Obviously Canon was (maybe still is) the market leader with little competition 10, 15 years ago. So this lead to a bit of arrogance on their part I'm sure, completely understandable as it happens in business over and over again in history. It is just now the competition has caught up and is making Canon look a little less "plugged in" to the market.

Look at the lack of EF-S primes. Why can't we get a fast, ~35mm equivalent prime on a rebel after all these years? Look at what Fuji has done in the past few years.

And Sony, I am no fan of their system, but I applaud their effort, throwing everything they can into a camera, trying to find a niche, enter the market. You don't see them crippling their cameras intentional to maintain market segmentation.

I better be careful, I feel like I'm starting to step on to a soap box.

I get the impression though that Canon is "getting it" (M3 as an example) and I would be surprised if the next 6D is "crippled" as the current one is. I understand they are a "big ship" and can't turn on a dime. However, they have had a few years now to start turning the wheel here. Time to get on it a little bit.

I'm sure it's not "nothing" - a higher-speed mirror and shutter costs something. Better AF points cost something. Sony is desperate and throwing everything at the wall - some people like the result, some don't. That's fine.

As for fast EF-S primes, the market for that is smaller than you think. Most crop shooters are very budget-minded and stick to the slow EF-S zooms. Those shooting crop with higher budgets are usually doing so for reach with sports and birding, so they're after the telephoto options (where the benefits of making an EF-S lens are much lesser). People wanting a fast normal lens for narrow DoF with the budget for a fast prime are mostly a crew that's going to be shooting FF. Frankly, I'm amazed the 60mm macro is even available.

 

[ashmadux]

Bah, nothing matters if this body doesn't get a decent AF system. The current sensor is fantastic IMHO.

Who wants to bet it inherits the now lame 19pt af system from down the line.

 

[9VIII]

Are you sure that 1/4k and 1/8k is not already an electronic shutter?...

Last I read the mechanical speed of the shutter is limited to about 1/200sec, thus your max sync speed when using flash. Everything beyond that is accomplished by narrowing the slit between the two halves of the shutter as it moves down the frame, the shutter never fully opens.

I was shooting some hawks on the weekend and the limitations on a Rebel were definitely annoying, there's really no reason to use a mechanical shutter anymore, and the ability to stop down using the shutter speed will be greatly appreciated (and means an infinite shutter life!).
(come to think of it, apparently the Fuji X-T10 is all electronic, one of the first bodies I've read about with no moving parts whatsoever, that thing could probably take thousands of pictures a day for decades.)

 

[zlatko]

I don't get all of this cynicism. The 6D2 doesn't even exist yet, so the price and features are unknown. All we have is a rumor. But people are already blaming Canon for doing something wrong.

Disclaimer: I'm shooting Canon for decades, and it's "my brand".

Having said that, imho Canon has worked hard to get this reputation. It really depends on the specific equipment one owns, but if you're unlucky and are not a premium customer, you could be affected by their marketing policy... I cannot count the times when I though of Canon b/c my 60d doesn't have afma at a €1000 price point. Ymmv. Magic Lantern to the rescue!

At the same time, forums are full of people wanting this or that improvement, but not wanting to pay for it.

That's how a market system works, supply and demand. It's not up to the demand to think for the supply and vice versa. Last not least, there's tech evolution so the "natural" progression is for prices to drop for the same thing or get more "value" for the same price.

I disagree. I still think it's a matter of perception. "You could be affected by their marketing policy" means something bad? If you're a buyer of anything — a lens cap — I suppose you're affected by the the "marketing policy" — whatever that is. In fact, you're affected by the "marketing policy" of every company you buy from. And if you sell anything, your buyers are affected by your marketing policy.

Apparently AFMA was something that mattered to you many times, and yet you bought a 60D. That just makes no sense. Canon makes a bunch of cameras with AFMA, but you choose one that doesn't have it. So this is Canon's fault?

The tech evolution has worked in buyers' favor time after time, with better products being introduced, often at lower prices. And yet some still perceive a constant escalation in prices, notwithstanding plenty of evidence to the contrary.

I see online forums as overflowing with misplaced anti-corporate sentiment apparently based on a feeling of entitlement to the perfect camera at the perfect price, combined with a feeling that camera companies should be not-for-profits running on pure altruism, without regard for the cost of factories, labor, materials, taxes, insurance, ... without regard for survival even. If you read enough, you get the feeling that Canon doesn't do *anything* right or for the right reason.

If one's core outlook is cynicism and gloom, there is no new camera and no new lens that will cause them to give Canon credit for a job well done.

 

[zlatko]

If the 6D goes away - who will pay for a crippled "entry level" FF that costs over $2,200? That's around where the 6D's retail release price was. And rumor is saying "upmarket"

"Upmarket" means only one thing -- higher price.

So...to summarize, Canon is going to offer a 6D2, at a higher price than the original 6D, which other than a newer sensor, will have minor evolutionary advancements, all in a smaller package.

This is appealing to whom?
....

So odd to complain about a product that doesn't exist. But don't let that stop you. "Upmarket" doesn't only mean a higher price. It means a better camera. But you already know it will be "crippled" at any price, not worth whatever they'll charge for it. So you're going full speed ahead with the criticism. If your core outlook is cynicism and gloom, then no rumor can be a good rumor, and nothing Canon does will be right. And if a product makes someone else happy, it will still have "little appeal" because it didn't make you happy. Because you're objective and others aren't.

 

[zlatko]

I don't get all of this cynicism. The 6D2 doesn't even exist yet, so the price and features are unknown. All we have is a rumor. But people are already blaming Canon for doing something wrong.

"Canon never misses an opportunity to squeeze a few more dollars" is the distinctly glass-is-half-empty view of everything. It means that if they improve a camera or lens from one model to the next and charge more for the improved model, they've done something wrong. They never get credit for the improvement, only blame for the price increase.

At the same time, forums are full of people wanting this or that improvement, but not wanting to pay for it. Someone is always blaming Canon for not building the exact camera they want at the exact price they want to pay.

Very much this, and especially your last paragraph.

It's a classic case of damned if they do, damned if they don't - when Canon makes a budget FF DSLR, people slam them for having an FF body that isn't packed with all the features they want. If Canon adds features to that body and raises the price, people whine that Canon isn't offering a budget FF DSLR.

Thank you. Anything Canon builds — and anything they are rumored to build — leads to criticism from the glass-is-half-empty crowd. If Canon builds something better, it's to "jack up" the price and "abandon" their entry level customers. If Canon builds something cheaper, it's to "cripple" the product and "abandon" their pro customers. Always wrong, never right, never a job well done.

 

[degos]

Apparently AFMA was something that mattered to you many times, and yet you bought a 60D. That just makes no sense. Canon makes a bunch of cameras with AFMA, but you choose one that doesn't have it. So this is Canon's fault?

His point was that the only reason the 60D lacks AFMA is because Canon's marketing department made that a segmentation feature.

There is no technical reason for it to lack it, just that Canon decided that only high-end amateur and pro cameras should have it. It's a software feature that costs this much to enable for a specific model: $0.

I see online forums as overflowing with misplaced anti-corporate sentiment apparently based on a feeling of entitlement to the perfect camera at the perfect price

That's because they make cameras for us, the users. Not for their executives, not for their shareholders. For the users. We are entitled to that perfect camera for our hard-earned cash.

If Canon can't make me the camera I want to replace, for example, the 1D4 then I'm quite entitled to state my opinions. The 1DX is lacks the reach for me. The 7D2 lacks the high-ISO quality I want. Until Canon deliver the 'perfect' camera for my needs they're not seeing a cent of my cash.

 

[LonelyBoy]

That's because they make cameras for us, the users. Not for their executives, not for their shareholders. For the users. We are entitled to that perfect camera for our hard-earned cash.

This is why you'll always be unhappy. You are not entitled to Canon making a high-iso 1.3x crop body any more than I'm entitled to Honda making a sports car. Companies abandon niche market segments all the time, usually to the end of those people screaming to high heaven (like the six people who bought the Ford Ranger), but usually abandoning that segment was done for a good reason.

And you're wrong - Canon makes cameras to make money for the shareholders. They're exactly like Nikon and Sony in that. If they don't think a given camera will make money (at least indirectly) it's not getting released. Period.

 

[verysimplejason]

Really, to make 6D Mark II successful is just to give the current 6D an AF with all cross-type, -3 sensitive points (or 19-pt AF, all cross-type). Also, a DR improvement of 0.5, dual iso capability just like C300II, and dual SD card slot. A nice to have feature would be a vari-angle LCD screen. For me, there's no need to shrink it at all nor to increase the MP size. Just retain the same price and it's already a more viable product.

 

[zlatko]

Apparently AFMA was something that mattered to you many times, and yet you bought a 60D. That just makes no sense. Canon makes a bunch of cameras with AFMA, but you choose one that doesn't have it. So this is Canon's fault?

His point was that the only reason the 60D lacks AFMA is because Canon's marketing department made that a segmentation feature.

There is no technical reason for it to lack it, just that Canon decided that only high-end amateur and pro cameras should have it. It's a software feature that costs this much to enable for a specific model: $0.

I see online forums as overflowing with misplaced anti-corporate sentiment apparently based on a feeling of entitlement to the perfect camera at the perfect price

That's because they make cameras for us, the users. Not for their executives, not for their shareholders. For the users. We are entitled to that perfect camera for our hard-earned cash.

If Canon can't make me the camera I want to replace, for example, the 1D4 then I'm quite entitled to state my opinions. The 1DX is lacks the reach for me. The 7D2 lacks the high-ISO quality I want. Until Canon deliver the 'perfect' camera for my needs they're not seeing a cent of my cash.

What is wrong with segmentation? Photographers generally don't sell a high res file at the same price as low res file, even though the photographer's added cost for the high res file is virtually zero.

Photographers who want or need AFMA can't understand or even guess why anyone would not want it. They've never heard of the camera buyer who wants a nice camera that's "not too complicated". They can't imagine a buyer who is turned off by the inclusion features that "over-complicate" a camera. They don't understand the appeal of a camera that doesn't have a nit-picky labor intensive focus adjustment feature. But Canon does understand this, so they build cameras for both kinds of buyers. Canon may calculate the true cost of AFMA not by what it costs to add it (labor hours, pages in a manual, customer support, etc.), but rather in terms of the lost sales it generates because buyers are looking for a simpler camera. I know a number of amateur photographers who would buy a DSLR but would never want to do AFMA adjustments or learn about them. Seeing AFMA in the product description would just be another clue that a particular camera is not for them.

As for that "perfect" camera that you are "entitled" to, let me be the bearer of sad news: it doesn't exist from any brand and will never exist from any brand, and you're not entitle to it anyway. Cameras aren't built for one individual's needs. That's an unattainable goal and an unrealistic expectation. But good luck in finding it.

 

[LSXPhotog]

An EF-S prime? It wouldn't make all that much sense seeing that you can buy a full frame prime.

Want approximately 35mm? Get a 24mm prime.
50mm? Get a 35mm prime.
85mm? Get a 55mm prime.
135mm? Get an 85mm prime.

You're still losing the compression of a legitimate focal length on a full frame, but these give the similar image crop, leaving no need for an EF-S mount specific lens. Sigma makes a 30mm...or just buy the 35 and it will work on a full frame camera if you ever want that.

 

[Sith Zombie]

They might try to get away with a "early adopters" premium for 6d2 pre-orders, but I'd be very surprised if the 6d2 would stay above the current price level for a longer time.

These are my thoughts too, they'll probably price it a bit too high at first but after the early adopters have bought it, the main market will decide what they are willing to pay and we'll see the price fall.

Canon's recent products have debuted at very respectable prices. I'm thinking 16-35 f/4L IS, the 7D mark 2, even the 100-400 mark 2. Going back a little bit more, the new 35mm f/2 IS debuting at $800 (if I recall correctly) was priced a bit high, especially considering the excellent Sigma 35mm Art was right there.

I can't picture the 6D2 being north of $2k, and if it is, it won't be for very long.
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Yeah the 7dmkii had a pretty good launch price, I agree. Over here in the U.K the 16-35mm is came in at around £1100 if I remember correctly, only a bit off the 16-35 2.8, so I think that was a bit pricy. However, now you can get it for around £800 which is very reasonable for the quality.

 

[Sith Zombie]

Bah, nothing matters if this body doesn't get a decent AF system. The current sensor is fantastic IMHO.

Who wants to bet it inherits the now lame 19pt af system from down the line.

Ha, I'll take that bet!

 

[joseph james]

The smaller size and weight is good news. I think it's a given it will have a moderately improved sensor (a few more pixels, maybe a bit lower noise). What would seal the deal would be if they put the 5D3 AF in it.

 

[Marsu42]

You have a camera, that until recently had an MSRP in the $1800 range. 1/4000 vs 1/8000 cost them nothing.

There's the problem: We don't know these things. It could very well be that 1/8k wears down the shutter faster, generating service costs and demanding better materials or a tougher q&c = higher production prices. Or it just could be that Canon crippled 1/8k by software for pure marketing reasons.

Are you sure that 1/4k and 1/8k is not already an electronic shutter? It seems to me quite unrealistic to make a mechanical shutter which can move in such a speed in a small device like DSLR. My assumption was that omitting 1/8k is currently a software choice.

It's mechanical alright, you can search for a youtube highspeed-slomo video shooting a dslr shutter - even at 1/8k the slid is larger than I expected it to be.

If a travel camera is meant to be a tourist camera, than I understand your statement about weatherproofing but I didn't get that impression when I saw marketing material for 6D. It really looked like a camera for outdoor photography where a bad weather is part of the experience. Probably my misunderstanding.

I picked up a brochure at my local cps and it definitely has a tourist "shoot the pyramids" and landscape spin, no nothing about wet and rough outdoor use.

1/8k shutter is available in cheaper bodies like 50D and 60D.

Totally different b/c on a crop camera, the shutter is much smaller and it's easier to get high shutter speeds! Same reason for the 5d3 having just 1/200s flash x-sync while 60d crop and so on have 1/250s.