EOS 7D Mark II: More High ISO Samples

[Steve]

So it looks like Viggo and raptor3x are probably the only guys here(besides me, duh)who even know what this new feature cures. They say it cures it, but it's almost a fantasy that they are able to pull this off. Anyway it's good to know that out of the thousands of photo guys here, 3 guys(me included) know what the hell is going on.

I can't even imagine how it would work for stills. I'm pretty sure its a video feature. But as someone that occasionally shoots indoor sports, I hope I'm wrong!

I don't care how accurate the focus is if the RAW file is noisy at 1600 ISO and higher. Cleaning the noise will reduce the sharpness, so what good is it?

I disagree. I'd rather have in focus shots with noise to deal with over out of focus shots that had nice clean shadows. From a high ISO perspective, if this camera is what the 5D3 is to the 5D2, then I think it will be a substantial upgrade. Luminance noise is far easier to clean up in post and for me the 5D3 produced usable images at higher ISO than it's predecessor.

This might sound totally crazy here but I'd like both of these things in the same camera but I guess false dilemmas can be fun too.

 

[Lee Jay]

So it looks like Viggo and raptor3x are probably the only guys here(besides me, duh)who even know what this new feature cures. They say it cures it, but it's almost a fantasy that they are able to pull this off. Anyway it's good to know that out of the thousands of photo guys here, 3 guys(me included) know what the hell is going on.

I can't even imagine how it would work for stills. I'm pretty sure its a video feature. But as someone that occasionally shoots indoor sports, I hope I'm wrong!

It only works for stills. The metering sensor senses the lighting flicker frequency and synchronizes shutter release to the peaks of the flickering lights. Not only are all shots the same, they also get the maximum light.

 

[Steve]

It only works for stills. The metering sensor senses the lighting flicker frequency and synchronizes shutter release to the peaks of the flickering lights. Not only are all shots the same, they also get the maximum light.

Really. That sounds pretty amazing. Where were you seeing that? I haven't seen anything about the specifics of the feature anywhere.

 

[Viggo]

It only works for stills. The metering sensor senses the lighting flicker frequency and synchronizes shutter release to the peaks of the flickering lights. Not only are all shots the same, they also get the maximum light.

Really. That sounds pretty amazing. Where were you seeing that? I haven't seen anything about the specifics of the feature anywhere.

Page 47 of the AF guide

 

[Steve]

Page 47 of the AF guide

Ah, nice.

So...you guys download and read camera manuals for fun, huh?

 

[Viggo]

Page 47 of the AF guide

Ah, nice.

So...you guys download and read camera manuals for fun, huh?

Well, YEAH! 8) ;D

 

[luckydude]

I never said game changer for bif and wildlife. I said it was superb if you're not in the high end 1d market. I said the anti flickering mode is a game changer, and it is.

I think it's hard to understand how big of a deal this is if you haven't shot indoor sports in crappy lighting.

So it looks like Viggo and raptor3x are probably the only guys here(besides me, duh)who even know what this new feature cures. They say it cures it, but it's almost a fantasy that they are able to pull this off. Anyway it's good to know that out of the thousands of photo guys here, 3 guys(me included) know what the hell is going on.

Four.

Might be five but I want to try it. If it really works, yeah, five.

 

[pwp]

...This camera is a sports/bif dream if you ask me....
And the anti-flickering mode for fluorecent light? Are you kidding me? That is a game changer...

A "game changer" for bif and wildlife? - I've taken tens of thousands of shots with my 7D and NONE of them were under fluorescent lights.

The Anti-Flicker mode will be a game changer for lots of photographers, not least corporate shooters who spend a lot of time in fluoro lit office locations.
Correcting the color shift from one frame to the next can be a huge time waster in post production.

I wasn't 100% sure exactly what the Anti Flicker mode was but found this article from Canon:
http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2014/eos7dmkii_antiflicker.htmlp

-pw

 

[Lee Jay]

It could well be that I'm doing NR wrong and if you have any suggestions, I would appreciate them.

Start with this:

Sharpening 40, Radius 1, Detail 25, Masking 40
Luminance NR 40, Detail 90, Contrast 0
Color NR 25, Detail 50, Smoothness 50

Messing around: For more detail, try increasing the first two detail sliders (say, 30 and 100) and sharpening (say, 50-60). For more NR, try increasing L-NR without decreasing detail first.

 

[garyknrd]

I flipped through the AF guide the other day, and people need to start really seeing how much awesomeness that has trickled down from the 1dX, plus new features. This camera is a sports/bif dream if you ask me. Superb AF coverage, must be the best coverage ever? And all the tuning you can to to the AF in the same way as the 1dX will open a brand new world for people not in the 1d market. I would be over the moon excited if I wasn't in the 1d crowd, and even now I can't wait to have a go.

And the anti-flickering mode for fluorecent light? Are you kidding me? That is a game changer...

It is going to be as huge as the original 7d.

-And buyers, PLEASE do read the AF guide and really understand how to make use of the AF system, because if you don't, you will miss out BIG TIME...

I saw the 7d2 also now can assign different AF settings to the AF-ON button and the *-button, and that is probably my most favorite feature of the 1dX.

Yes, I do realize this thread is about IQ and noise, but that shouldn't be the main reason to buy or not but the 7d2. But you take a fantastic shot with perfect focus in a ridicolous fast pace situation and that epic moment, or would you like a miss focused shot that is superclean with 14 stops of DR? Then buy another camera.

It's got the functions, but that is it. The AF module on the 1Dx and 5DII are light years ahead of the 7D II.

Do you have proof?

7D II AF sensor specs. http://www.brochures.canon-europe.com/getFile.php?productid=9090&languageid=-111

1Dx AF sensor specs. http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/education/technical/eos_1d_x_explained/AF_guide_EOS-1DX_eng.pdf

It took me all of about 5 minutes to find the difference.

 

[Lee Jay]

7D II AF sensor specs. http://www.brochures.canon-europe.com/getFile.php?productid=9090&languageid=-111

1Dx AF sensor specs. http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/education/technical/eos_1d_x_explained/AF_guide_EOS-1DX_eng.pdf

It took me all of about 5 minutes to find the difference.

No matter what difference you're talking about (there are several), none of them come anywhere close to correctly being described by the term "light years". And several of those subtle differences are in favor of the 7D Mark II, including coverage.

 

[garyknrd]

7D II AF sensor specs. http://www.brochures.canon-europe.com/getFile.php?productid=9090&languageid=-111

1Dx AF sensor specs. http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/education/technical/eos_1d_x_explained/AF_guide_EOS-1DX_eng.pdf

It took me all of about 5 minutes to find the difference.

No matter what difference you're talking about (there are several), none of them come anywhere close to correctly being described by the term "light years". And several of those subtle differences are in favor of the 7D Mark II, including coverage.

No sweat. Enjoy your new 7D II. I personally will pass.

 

[Eldar]

I have ordered this camera as a supplement to my 1DX. I will use it to get more reach (primarily birds) and less need for cropping. I will also use it with the 200-400 f4L IS 1.4x on longer hikes, to save the weight of multiple lenses and the 1DX. I will most likely get the 300mm f2.8L IS II for this use (with the xIII extenders) and also buy a super-zoom (probably the Tamron 16-300) for my wife, to be her walk-around camera on vacations and trips.

For that use, with what I have seen of its performance, including playing with the image files I have found and reading the AF manual, I believe this will be a Great camera and I am really looking forward to getting my hands on it.

 

[dufflover]

I own a 70D as well and they look pretty much the same to me ...

 

[Viggo]

For NR process in Lr I do this:

First off set EVERYTHING to 0 , including tone curve camera calibration, sharpening NR everything to 0 and hold alt key and press "SET AS DEFAULT", that way you are in control and don't leave anything to any Adobe auto cr@p.

NR before sharpening always. I pull the color noise down first as it is easier to see what is left of luminance noise. Then a slight pull on that until there is a little noise, but not a lot.

Then for sharpening there is one key you always have to use, and that is the ALT-key, hold it down while pulling the sliders to see the effect. As a general rule I use around 70 for low iso clean shots, and decrease to around 30-40 for very high iso (above 8000)

The radius I hardly touch, don't like over 0,7. But use the ALT key again to see that you're juuust covering the edges and that it doesn't go to far and cause halos.

Then the Detail slider is pushed up, while holding the ALT-key of course. I tend to go high on this one to really get the crispness, but also dependendt on the iso, release the ALT-key to see if you're where you want.

And then go back and pull the amount up or down slightly to finish it off.

And then the most important slider, Masking. Hold the ALT-key and see that only the edges, and a bit more is sharpened, if it's black no sharpening is added to that area, but if you ONLY do edges it looks unatural at high iso's. You need sort of a sharpening gradient to make the shot look balanced.

Here's an example where it's very important to only sharpen what is focused on, because most of the shot is a blur, and why sharpen that?

 

[Nethawk]

I flipped through the AF guide the other day, and people need to start really seeing how much awesomeness that has trickled down from the 1dX, plus new features. This camera is a sports/bif dream if you ask me. Superb AF coverage, must be the best coverage ever? And all the tuning you can to to the AF in the same way as the 1dX will open a brand new world for people not in the 1d market. I would be over the moon excited if I wasn't in the 1d crowd, and even now I can't wait to have a go.

And the anti-flickering mode for fluorecent light? Are you kidding me? That is a game changer...

It is going to be as huge as the original 7d.

-And buyers, PLEASE do read the AF guide and really understand how to make use of the AF system, because if you don't, you will miss out BIG TIME...

I saw the 7d2 also now can assign different AF settings to the AF-ON button and the *-button, and that is probably my most favorite feature of the 1dX.

Yes, I do realize this thread is about IQ and noise, but that shouldn't be the main reason to buy or not but the 7d2. But you take a fantastic shot with perfect focus in a ridicolous fast pace situation and that epic moment, or would you like a miss focused shot that is superclean with 14 stops of DR? Then buy another camera.

It's got the functions, but that is it. The AF module on the 1Dx and 5DII are light years ahead of the 7D II.

Do you have proof?

7D II AF sensor specs. http://www.brochures.canon-europe.com/getFile.php?productid=9090&languageid=-111

1Dx AF sensor specs. http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/education/technical/eos_1d_x_explained/AF_guide_EOS-1DX_eng.pdf

It took me all of about 5 minutes to find the difference.

7D II MSRP http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081808-REG/canon_9128b002_eos_7d_mark_ii.html

1Dx MSRP http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/827036-REG/Canon_5253B002_EOS_1D_X_EOS_Digital.html

Just sayin'.

It took me about 12 seconds...

You've complained about this in several forums, but previously you were waiting for a price drop. Now your mind has changed. We'll see in a year, I'd bet you will own this camera once field tests narrow that $5k gap.

 

[Lee Jay]

NR before sharpening always.

You do realize that the order of application makes no difference to the final result, correct? It may make a difference to what numbers you end up choosing and how you choose them, but the application order is hard coded into the Camera Raw code.

 

[Viggo]

NR before sharpening always.

You do realize that the order of application makes no difference to the final result, correct? It may make a difference to what numbers you end up choosing and how you choose them, but the application order is hard coded into the Camera Raw code.

Hm, I have always liked the results better that way, and I have watched a few tutorials back in the day, and at Adobe they have said, always start with NR so you don't sharpen the noise, but remove it first. And that makes sense so I have always done that.

 

[AccipiterQ]

...This camera is a sports/bif dream if you ask me....

And the anti-flickering mode for fluorecent light? Are you kidding me? That is a game changer...

A "game changer" for bif and wildlife? - I've taken tens of thousands of shots with my 7D and NONE of them were under fluorescent lights.

Yes, I do realize this thread is about IQ and noise, but that shouldn't be the main reason to buy or not but the 7d2. But you take a fantastic shot with perfect focus in a ridicolous fast pace situation and that epic moment, or would you like a miss focused shot that is superclean with 14 stops of DR? Then buy another camera.

I don't care how accurate the focus is if the RAW file is noisy at 1600 ISO and higher. Cleaning the noise will reduce the sharpness, so what good is it?

Nailed it. the NR will just reduce sharpness, which is already hard to get on a bird in flight for instance. The tepid response from the market is because we waited 5 years and they basically vomited up a 5% improvement over the 70D. The AF points are great, but for me for instance, the center point is what I use on 95% of my wildlife shots. The sensor doesn't look much better than a 70D, and as someone earlier in the thread noted, they found the full-sized versions of some of these shots and they're completely useless when at even 50%. In other words they keep releasing these compressed versions, like 2MP versions of a 20MP shot. I could shoot at 3200 on a T2i and get it to look decent at that ratio...

 

[Lee Jay]

NR before sharpening always.

You do realize that the order of application makes no difference to the final result, correct? It may make a difference to what numbers you end up choosing and how you choose them, but the application order is hard coded into the Camera Raw code.

Hm, I have always liked the results better that way, and I have watched a few tutorials back in the day, and at Adobe they have said, always start with NR so you don't sharpen the noise, but remove it first. And that makes sense so I have always done that.

In Lightroom (or Camera Raw), it doesn't matter. The final numbers are all that matter.

Try this. Apply 100L-NR and then 100 sharpening and export an image. Then reset and apply 100 sharpening and then 100L-NR and export again. Now, compare the final images. They will be identical.

Note that doing the same in Photoshop (not using the Camera Raw plugin) WILL depend on the order of application.