From DPR "Canon 5Ds is a camera for those that know what they are doing"
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Loswr
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Tugela said:neuroanatomist said:Tugela said:Does that mean that the people who buy it now "know what they are doing"?
I suspect that 90% of the cameras sold will be for the purchasers to demonstrate that to other photographers.
If I buy one I will be able to strut my stuff and look down on others because I "know what I am doing" (as evidenced by my shiny scuff free new camera)? Sort of like the folk who buy sport utility vehicles for the looks, but never leave the city
Of course! Photography is mostly about how you look while taking pictures. Thus...the Nikon Df.
For the vast majority of people who buy these cameras, yes.
The majority of people who buy a Nikon Df? Yes, that could certainly be true.
Making such a statement about the 'vast majority of people' who buy a 5Ds is quite ludicrous, and only serves to make you look foolish, silly...and perhaps slightly envious.
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neuroanatomist said:Tugela said:neuroanatomist said:Tugela said:Does that mean that the people who buy it now "know what they are doing"?
I suspect that 90% of the cameras sold will be for the purchasers to demonstrate that to other photographers.
If I buy one I will be able to strut my stuff and look down on others because I "know what I am doing" (as evidenced by my shiny scuff free new camera)? Sort of like the folk who buy sport utility vehicles for the looks, but never leave the city
Of course! Photography is mostly about how you look while taking pictures. Thus...the Nikon Df.
For the vast majority of people who buy these cameras, yes.
The majority of people who buy a Nikon Df? Yes, that could certainly be true.
Making such a statement about the 'vast majority of people' who buy a 5Ds is quite ludicrous, and only serves to make you look foolish, silly...and perhaps slightly envious.
Most of the market for high end prosumer cameras are people with large disposable incomes who want "nothing but the best". They don't actually know that much about the merits of one system over another, they want the status symbol. Although they are basically taking snapshots with their 5Ds (or whatever), they wouldn't be seen dead with a Rebel (for example), a camera that would serve their purposes just as well. And the reason is that a Rebel is for common people, not them.
Maybe you don't like it, but that is who is buying these sorts of camera for the most part. Your mistake is that because you are an enthusiast, and you have a camera like this, you think that everyone else who has one is also an enthusiast. They are not. They are mostly people with lots of money who spend it on status symbol products. You see the same behavior in every other consumer product market, there is no reason to think that photography is somehow exempt from that.
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I think you may find it hard to find examples or statistics to back up that. I would be very surprised if you did, unless people like me fall into your defined category.Tugela said:neuroanatomist said:Tugela said:neuroanatomist said:Tugela said:Does that mean that the people who buy it now "know what they are doing"?
I suspect that 90% of the cameras sold will be for the purchasers to demonstrate that to other photographers.
If I buy one I will be able to strut my stuff and look down on others because I "know what I am doing" (as evidenced by my shiny scuff free new camera)? Sort of like the folk who buy sport utility vehicles for the looks, but never leave the city
Of course! Photography is mostly about how you look while taking pictures. Thus...the Nikon Df.
For the vast majority of people who buy these cameras, yes.
The majority of people who buy a Nikon Df? Yes, that could certainly be true.
Making such a statement about the 'vast majority of people' who buy a 5Ds is quite ludicrous, and only serves to make you look foolish, silly...and perhaps slightly envious.
Most of the market for high end prosumer cameras are people with large disposable incomes who want "nothing but the best". They don't actually know that much about the merits of one system over another, they want the status symbol. Although they are basically taking snapshots with their 5Ds (or whatever), they wouldn't be seen dead with a Rebel (for example), a camera that would serve their purposes just as well. And the reason is that a Rebel is for common people, not them.
Maybe you don't like it, but that is who is buying these sorts of camera for the most part. Your mistake is that because you are an enthusiast, and you have a camera like this, you think that everyone else who has one is also an enthusiast. They are not. They are mostly people with lots of money who spend it on status symbol products. You see the same behavior in every other consumer product market, there is no reason to think that photography is somehow exempt from that.
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Tugela said:
Flawed psychology here : wanting the very best does not necessarily equate to status symbol. In many cases people who can afford and want 'the very best' often keep it hidden out of view.
Anyway, someone who wants 'the very best' is going to by a Sony a7RII aren't they ? <sarcasm - the lowest form of wit
>
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Loswr
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msm said:neuroanatomist said:Eldar said:
He's just another arm-chair market researcher, ludicrous claims but no data to support them. :
Yeah unlike for instance you who always back up your claims with solid data :
In fact, I frequently do. But sometimes there's simply no need, because what I'm stating is simple fact which stands on its own in spite of silly obfuscation and weasel-words from certain individuals.
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The discussion so far has ignored another group: those who have sufficient funds and have no idea how to use pro-grade cameras; yet, they truly want to learn and aspire to become at least decent photographers.
At nearly every visit to the local pro-shop I see someone in that general category pumping the sales staff for help understanding and using their first DSLR which just happens to be a $5000 camera/lens combo they bought last month. The classes they offer are filled with lots of people with 6D's, 5DIII's, D750's, and D810's who obviously know little; but, are anxious to learn. Likely a few might breakthrough and become pro's, most will probably wind-up shooting slightly better than average snap-shots. Hopefully all enjoy photography for a long time.
There does seem to be a practical threshold though for those just jumping into "serious" photography for the first time. I have yet to see anyone with a 1DX, D4S or 645Z doing anything other than teaching the classes. It's too soon to say whether the 5Ds(R) falls in this category.
At nearly every visit to the local pro-shop I see someone in that general category pumping the sales staff for help understanding and using their first DSLR which just happens to be a $5000 camera/lens combo they bought last month. The classes they offer are filled with lots of people with 6D's, 5DIII's, D750's, and D810's who obviously know little; but, are anxious to learn. Likely a few might breakthrough and become pro's, most will probably wind-up shooting slightly better than average snap-shots. Hopefully all enjoy photography for a long time.
There does seem to be a practical threshold though for those just jumping into "serious" photography for the first time. I have yet to see anyone with a 1DX, D4S or 645Z doing anything other than teaching the classes. It's too soon to say whether the 5Ds(R) falls in this category.
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I'm not sure how relevant it is to this thread, but I went hiking with friends last weekend, and twice I was asked if I was "self taught" as a photographer.
As though some kind of rigorous training is a prerequisite to owning an 1100D.
I was kind of shocked that people think there's so much learning inbolved. Yes, the really complex stuff is there if you want it but most of the technical stuff we talk about here doesn't even have a lot to do with the act of shooting, that part is mostly creative and in your head, the only training that's really necessary is the same approarch as I usually take with new electronics and just hit every button in sequence and see what happens. There isn't a lot to go wrong and the effects are fairly evident in the result.
Obviously these people had little to no experience with a camera, but it's surprising that the subject is perceived as being so complex in general.
Which may or may not support the position that people would buy the 5Ds just to look cool.
The unfortunate thing about people taking classes for photography is that they probably see it as an investment of some sort when really it's just another product being sold to the consumer. People expecting to turn a hobby into something productive are in for a shock.
I have a feeling that's another one of those generational gaps that hasn't gone away yet, people think you need to be someone special to run a camera.
Back in the 90's developing film meant that practice was both expensive and time consuming. It seems that culturally it still hasn't quite sunk in that "taking a photo" has gone from a process that takes hours to produce a finished result, to being able to look at the results of your combination of camera settings within seconds of pressing the button.
Learning to use a camera is an order of magnitude faster now than it was 20 years ago.
I seriously think people should be giving cameras to their kids from a fairly young age, used cameras are dirt cheap compared to the other toys they have nowdays, and probably far more educational.
As though some kind of rigorous training is a prerequisite to owning an 1100D.
I was kind of shocked that people think there's so much learning inbolved. Yes, the really complex stuff is there if you want it but most of the technical stuff we talk about here doesn't even have a lot to do with the act of shooting, that part is mostly creative and in your head, the only training that's really necessary is the same approarch as I usually take with new electronics and just hit every button in sequence and see what happens. There isn't a lot to go wrong and the effects are fairly evident in the result.
Obviously these people had little to no experience with a camera, but it's surprising that the subject is perceived as being so complex in general.
Which may or may not support the position that people would buy the 5Ds just to look cool.
The unfortunate thing about people taking classes for photography is that they probably see it as an investment of some sort when really it's just another product being sold to the consumer. People expecting to turn a hobby into something productive are in for a shock.
I have a feeling that's another one of those generational gaps that hasn't gone away yet, people think you need to be someone special to run a camera.
Back in the 90's developing film meant that practice was both expensive and time consuming. It seems that culturally it still hasn't quite sunk in that "taking a photo" has gone from a process that takes hours to produce a finished result, to being able to look at the results of your combination of camera settings within seconds of pressing the button.
Learning to use a camera is an order of magnitude faster now than it was 20 years ago.
I seriously think people should be giving cameras to their kids from a fairly young age, used cameras are dirt cheap compared to the other toys they have nowdays, and probably far more educational.
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neuroanatomist said:
Oh you mean like refusing to relate to established definitions of well defined concepts, instead trying to twist the discussion over on your misinterpretation of those concepts. Of which you can't even provide a meaningful definition. Yeah I know who my prime candidate of beeing among those "certain individuals" is :
.
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Tugela said:neuroanatomist said:Tugela said:neuroanatomist said:Tugela said:Does that mean that the people who buy it now "know what they are doing"?
I suspect that 90% of the cameras sold will be for the purchasers to demonstrate that to other photographers.
If I buy one I will be able to strut my stuff and look down on others because I "know what I am doing" (as evidenced by my shiny scuff free new camera)? Sort of like the folk who buy sport utility vehicles for the looks, but never leave the city
Of course! Photography is mostly about how you look while taking pictures. Thus...the Nikon Df.
For the vast majority of people who buy these cameras, yes.
The majority of people who buy a Nikon Df? Yes, that could certainly be true.
Making such a statement about the 'vast majority of people' who buy a 5Ds is quite ludicrous, and only serves to make you look foolish, silly...and perhaps slightly envious.
Most of the market for high end prosumer cameras are people with large disposable incomes who want "nothing but the best". They don't actually know that much about the merits of one system over another, they want the status symbol. Although they are basically taking snapshots with their 5Ds (or whatever), they wouldn't be seen dead with a Rebel (for example), a camera that would serve their purposes just as well. And the reason is that a Rebel is for common people, not them.
Maybe you don't like it, but that is who is buying these sorts of camera for the most part. Your mistake is that because you are an enthusiast, and you have a camera like this, you think that everyone else who has one is also an enthusiast. They are not. They are mostly people with lots of money who spend it on status symbol products. You see the same behavior in every other consumer product market, there is no reason to think that photography is somehow exempt from that.
Yeah I'm curious too. How do you know that?
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Loswr
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msm said:neuroanatomist said:
Oh you mean like refusing to relate to established definitions of well defined concepts, instead trying to twist the discussion over on your misinterpretation of those concepts. Of which you can't even provide a meaningful definition. Yeah I know who my prime candidate of beeing among those "certain individuals" is :
I mean hiding behind those 'established definitions' to avoid answering a direct question, and in so doing being intentionally misleading about the capabilities of a camera, and supporting false statements by others. To find the prime candidate, use a mirror.
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Tugela said:
This is absolutely absurd. I took my SL1 and 18-135STM to my girlfriend's trail race. Multiple people were impressed by my awesome camera and thought I was the pro shooting the event. People who are not photogeeks just see "big camera with protruding lens". My girlfriend couldn't tell a 5D3 from a T6i any more than she could tell a Ferrari from a Lamborghini (or I could tell a Hermes bag from a Gucci, or a rose from a tulip).
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bdunbar79 said:Tugela said:neuroanatomist said:Tugela said:neuroanatomist said:Tugela said:Does that mean that the people who buy it now "know what they are doing"?
I suspect that 90% of the cameras sold will be for the purchasers to demonstrate that to other photographers.
If I buy one I will be able to strut my stuff and look down on others because I "know what I am doing" (as evidenced by my shiny scuff free new camera)? Sort of like the folk who buy sport utility vehicles for the looks, but never leave the city
Of course! Photography is mostly about how you look while taking pictures. Thus...the Nikon Df.
For the vast majority of people who buy these cameras, yes.
The majority of people who buy a Nikon Df? Yes, that could certainly be true.
Making such a statement about the 'vast majority of people' who buy a 5Ds is quite ludicrous, and only serves to make you look foolish, silly...and perhaps slightly envious.
Most of the market for high end prosumer cameras are people with large disposable incomes who want "nothing but the best". They don't actually know that much about the merits of one system over another, they want the status symbol. Although they are basically taking snapshots with their 5Ds (or whatever), they wouldn't be seen dead with a Rebel (for example), a camera that would serve their purposes just as well. And the reason is that a Rebel is for common people, not them.
Maybe you don't like it, but that is who is buying these sorts of camera for the most part. Your mistake is that because you are an enthusiast, and you have a camera like this, you think that everyone else who has one is also an enthusiast. They are not. They are mostly people with lots of money who spend it on status symbol products. You see the same behavior in every other consumer product market, there is no reason to think that photography is somehow exempt from that.
Yeah I'm curious too. How do you know that?
You think that photography is somehow different from all the other consumer markets, such as cars, watches, TVs and all the rest?
Most high end sales are for status symbols, not because the buyers really "need" it. The exception of course would be professionals, who do actually need it. But most everyone else does not, and the vast majority of people who do buy these things buy them as expensive toys. They have to have the "best", even if they don't really know why they actually need it.
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LonelyBoy said:
Right. And those with money who DO take pictures don't want to be lumped with common people like you. To demonstrate that they are really serious amateurs, shooting with an SL1 would not do, because that is a cheap camera any Joe Blo (such as yourself) could buy. No, to prove that they are serious they HAVE to have a high end system. Remember, they are not trying to impress regular folk, they are trying to impress other photographers. If you are carrying around a 5D (or better still, a 1D), other photographers will think that you are super skilled and advanced, when in fact you are merely taking family snapshots that anyone with a smartphone could do just as well.
When I go down to the seawall in the evenings, I see many people like that wandering around. Very few of them are taking the sort of effort needed to craft a fine photograph. No doubt it makes them feel good about themselves personally, but lets be honest about it.
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There is an infinity of potential thoughts to dwell on.
Many are more productive than the baseless imagining of other people's motivations.
Many are also healthier than the construction of class warfare based systems of contempt for other people's purchases.
A photographic project of portraits of well healed photographers taken with entry level gear could be a constructive beginning of your transition away from this dark habit. That assumes the process will teach you to see the humanity in these poor souls trapped within their consumerist vanities.
Many are more productive than the baseless imagining of other people's motivations.
Many are also healthier than the construction of class warfare based systems of contempt for other people's purchases.
A photographic project of portraits of well healed photographers taken with entry level gear could be a constructive beginning of your transition away from this dark habit. That assumes the process will teach you to see the humanity in these poor souls trapped within their consumerist vanities.
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