Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?

[Don Haines]

Here's a challenge to anyone who feel they know their stuff:
Meet me at a local brasserie. I'll bring the stack of prints. You bring your deep knowledge of "how things really are." As I share my prints you tell me which camera and which lens made which image.

"All right. Where is the Exmor? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both mount and frame, and find out who is right... and who is dead."

"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the Exmor into his own print or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the Exmor into his own print, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the print in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the print in front of me."

"You've made your decision then?"

"Not remotely. Because Exmor comes from Sony, as everyone knows, and Sony is entirely peopled with marketeers, and marketeers are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the print in front of you."

"Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."

I haven't checked this thread since my last post. Decided to go ahead and see what was on the last page. Thank you Neuro, I needed the laughs ;D

"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is "Never get involved in a lens debate in Asia." But only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sony when shadows are on the line! Ahahahaha, ahahahaha, ahahaha" -- thud

"Who are you?"

"I am no photographer to be trifled with, that is all you ever need know."

"To think -- all that time it was your print that was Exmor."

"They were both Canon. I spent the last few years building up an exposure technique immune to shadow noise." ;D

Inconceivable!

 

[GmwDarkroom]

So when you guys re-quote each other a dozen times, this is what happens on an iPad to the thread:

Between this and the Dread Pirate Neuro, it keeps it amusing.

 

[Maiaibing]

Everything I have read from people who have tested says the opposite - what do you build this claim on?

Having provided 4 links to articles etc. to back my claim - as you asked for - I continue to eagerly await support for your claim the the 5DIII AF has better than the D810 AF.

 

[Loswr]

Having provided 4 links to articles etc. to back my claim

Admittedly, I visited only the first three links you provided, and found no credible evidence to support your claim (and therefore saw no point clicking the 4th link).

Perhaps you missed my reply, posted over a week ago?

I can offer the following:
1.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR7Kjeq2aH4 with links to samples and additional info /main points. more accurate and flexible
2.) http://www.digitalcameraworld.com/2014/07/02/nikon-d810-vs-canon-5d-mark-iii-comparison-full-frame-dslrs/3/ /main point advantage for wildlife photography (just one of many such remarks around)
3.) http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d810.htm#comp /main point much better autofocus for portraits (also lots of these around)

1) Northrup's "sports test" was a joke. Heck, even his wife (? I assume she is) called it a 'moving portrait'. As I stated, a ~60% hit rate in that scenario is ridiculously low – something I'd expect even an entry-level dSLR to beat in that 'test'. It's already been pointed out that he had a setting enabled which Canon warns against using with moving subject.

2) I don't see where DCW tests AF, they just list specs. I think you're over interpreting their statement about wildlife, which applies specifically to f/8 TC combos. They also incompletely describe the 5DIII's f/8 AF, which is the center point with 4 surrounding assist points. Still, the 11 f/8 AF points are a nice advantage for an f/4 supertele with a 2x TC or an f/5.6 lens with a 1.4x TC (that advantage would be even better for bird/wildlife shooters if Nikon had a 400/5.6 like Canon!). By the way, did you notice their conclusion? In it, they state, "The Canon 5D Mark III remains a hugely desirable camera and is still arguably the better all-rounder. It offers slightly faster continuous shooting, albeit with smaller resolution files, more cross-type AF sensors and class-leading video quality." Interesting that a review you link to support the contention that the D810 has better AF mentions a 5DIII AF advantage in concluding that the 5DIII is a better all-around camera. Given that, it seems you have not only read a review that suggests the 5DIII has better AF, you provided the link yourself.

3) You're citing KR to support your assertion? Really?? KR's goal is to make money from web traffic. He makes outrageous claims to further that goal, then later makes equally outrageous but diametrically opposed statements to further it further. I've read enough of KR to know better than to rely on his information, particularly as far as technical matters are concerned.

 

[StudentOfLight]

So when you guys re-quote each other a dozen times, this is what happens on an iPad to the thread:

Between this and the Dread Pirate Neuro, it keeps it amusing.

Your screen needs more latitude. Sony is apparently coming out with one that's 2-stops wider....

 

[Maiaibing]

Perhaps you missed my reply, posted over a week ago?

I did not miss anything.

You claimed 5dIII AF was better than D810 AF. I asked you to share why you thought so - however instead of providing any evidence you asked me to provide evidence that the D810 AF was better (I claim I actually did not make - only saying that I had seen evidence that if anything pointed to the opposite).

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

 

[ULFULFSEN]

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

Normaly now the Squirrle posting or other attempts to ruin a thread start.

And of course the Moderators will do nothing against it, as long as the attempts are made by know Canon fanboys with a 1000+ postcount (as we can see in this thread already).

 

[BozillaNZ]

Perhaps you missed my reply, posted over a week ago?

I did not miss anything.

You claimed 5dIII AF was better than D810 AF. I asked you to share why you thought so - however instead of providing any evidence you asked me to provide evidence that the D810 AF was better (I claim I actually did not make - only saying that I had seen evidence that if anything pointed to the opposite).

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

Woot? The same old same old Multicam 3500 FX now wants to challenge canon's new 61 pt AF? Have you ever tried to use a D810, or a D4/s for that matter, to focus on a telephone pole and found that you can't lock on focus in any of the periphery points? EPIC FAIL LOL!

 

[Loswr]

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

To be honest, I haven't seen any reliable comparisons online that are conclusive, one way or the other. As I stated before, I tested them head to head, personally (in part because there was nothing conclusive online). I didn't write up my results as a white paper or a blog, and have no intention of doing so. You may conclude whatever you wish.

Fact-based discussion? The facts are (as one of your links pointed out) that the 5DIII AF is better spec'd, with the exception of number of AF points available with an f/8 TC combo. The 5DIII has more AF points, more cross-type points, cross-type points spread across the frame instead of clustered in the center, and central points with a wider baseline (f/2.8, five dual-cross points) for increased accuracy.

 

[ULFULFSEN]

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

To be honest, I haven't seen any reliable comparisons online that are conclusive, one way or the other.

Aha so it´s subjective.
But you always make it sound like it´s a fact written in stone.

Now the sensor performance is well documented and there are dozend of tests and reviews that show Sonys sensors are better.

 

[Loswr]

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

To be honest, I haven't seen any reliable comparisons online that are conclusive, one way or the other.

Aha so it´s subjective.
But you always make it sound like it´s a fact written in stone.

Scroll up one post above yours where I list the better specs of the 5DIII. Scroll back a few pages to where I say I tested them head to head personally.

 

[ULFULFSEN]

Now, please provide the evidence for your claim. Or I will conclude that you - once again - prefer babbling rants to any fact based discussion.

To be honest, I haven't seen any reliable comparisons online that are conclusive, one way or the other.

Aha so it´s subjective.
But you always make it sound like it´s a fact written in stone.

Scroll up one post above yours where I list the better specs of the 5DIII. Scroll back a few pages to where I say I tested them head to head personally.

subjective and no facts to present.

i mean... what would you say if someone else posted such opinions?
based on tests he has done in his backyard with nobody to verify them.

and about specs alone...
as you wrote yourself, that the samsung NX1 probably will have twice as much cross AF points proves nothing.

 

[Loswr]

and about specs alone...
as you wrote yourself, that the samsung NX1 probably will have twice as much cross AF points proves nothing.

Cross AF points on a dedicated PDAF sensor?

 

[ULFULFSEN]

Cross AF points on a dedicated PDAF sensor?

that´s what they call it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poY8QAZbtEI#t=48#

i am glad that´s all you have to retort.
so i guess we agree that your tests are not meant to settle this dispute about which AF is better.

 

[Loswr]

Cross AF points on a dedicated PDAF sensor?

that´s what they call it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poY8QAZbtEI#t=48#

i am glad that´s all you have to retort.
so i guess we agree that your tests are not meant to settle this dispute about which AF is better.

No mirror = no dedicated phase AF sensor.

My tests were meant to settle the issue for me, which they did.

 

[ULFULFSEN]

Cross AF points on a dedicated PDAF sensor?

that´s what they call it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poY8QAZbtEI#t=48#

i am glad that´s all you have to retort.
so i guess we agree that your tests are not meant to settle this dispute about which AF is better.

No mirror = no dedicated phase AF sensor.

i thought you are going about "cross points".

My tests were meant to settle the issue for me, which they did.

and that´s fine.

thought for me it looked as if you have hard facts.
so it´s still a question who you want to believe.

i still tend to think the 5D MK3 AF is better but i have read the opposit too.

 

[Loswr]

Cross AF points on a dedicated PDAF sensor?

No mirror = no dedicated phase AF sensor.

i thought you are going about "cross points".

Imaging Resource indicates that only 3 of the 105 phase detect points on the image sensor are cross type. Regardless, the dedicated PDAF sensor is a key difference. The NX30 uses 'hybrid AF' – the phase AF points get focus in the ballpark, then contrast detect is used to refurb the focus. That multistep process takes longer than the dedicated PDAF sensor AF points, which measure the phase difference with sufficient accuracy (assuming proper AFMA) and precision that contrast detect refinement isn't needed.

105 phase detect AF points sounds impressive. 105 AF points who's function is just to assist with contrast detect AF is much less impressive, but that's the reality.

My tests were meant to settle the issue for me, which they did.

and that´s fine.

thought for me it looked as if you have hard facts.
so it´s still a question who you want to believe.

i still tend to think the 5D MK3 AF is better but i have read the opposit too.

AF performance testing is always going to be subjective. However, the few comparisons that I've seen haven't been performed properly (e.g., Northrup's use of a setting which Canon recommends against).

 

[ULFULFSEN]

Imaging Resource indicates that only 3 of the 105 phase detect points on the image sensor are cross type.

for the NX30, yes.

what the samsung NX1 will bring is in the stars.
rumors say 150+ cross type points and a "revolutionary" PD system.

anyway what i thought you mean is, that the on sensor AF points are called cross type.
but they are not the same as cross type sensors on a dedicated AF sensor.

 

[Loswr]

Imaging Resource indicates that only 3 of the 105 phase detect points on the image sensor are cross type.

for the NX30, yes.

what the samsung NX1 will bring is in the stars.
rumors say 150+ cross type points and a "revolutionary" PD system.

It will be 'revolutionary' if it uses only the phase sensors to achieve focus. If it's still handing off from phase to contrast, it's still hybrid AF and not really revolutionary.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Maybe soon in video too (for now they are ahead with the 5D3+ML being easily the best).

From a Canon employee (although not one from DSLR division or even from Japan):"....or those expecting 4K video in a DLSR will be very disappointed. Canon sees no reason for this in a consumer camera yet. They told my boss only about 10% of people buy a 5D III for it's video capabilities. They are focusing on cinema market and want you to pay big dollars for the C300/500 or 1DC if you must have a DSLR with 4K. 5D IV will not get it IMO and at best we will see 1080p @ 60fps."

Great so they want to go from a lot buying the 5D2 for video to 10% for the 5D3 to 0.1% for the 5D4. Brilliant.

If this is true and no Exmor-low ISO.... maybe Canon really and truly has lost the plot.
We'll see next year.

I still findit hard to believe they'd be that THAT foolish to leave 4k out of even the 5D4 though. I still think it will ahve it.