Leaf Shutter Lenses For Canon Dslr

[Drizzt321]

With a focal plane shutter, you can only use a strobe at the sync-speed, which tends to be 1/200s or 1/250s depending on cameras. It used to be even more pronounced, with sync-speeds of 1/60 or 1/125 on the earlier 35mm cameras.

* And by all, I mean the ones that the vast, vast majority of people will or have used

I think you mean all speeds UP TO the maximum sync speeds the camera supports.

What I like about leaf shutter cameras is the silence. Of course this only applies to cameras that lack a reflex mirror.

Yes, that's a better way to put it. The maximum (so fastest shutter) sync speed is generally 1/200-1/250 for modern DSLRs.

Yea, leaf shutters are so much quieter. Especially on the old folders without any mirror 8) Hmm...maybe I should experiment with a cheap folder, and a cheap crapped up Rebel to see if I can fit the guts into an old folder. That'd be pretty crazy =D

 

[privatebydesign]

A flash typically lights the scene for about 1/10,000 of a second, so a faster shutter speed is usually of little consequence.

Studio strobes are not typically in the 1/10,000 second range, even Profoto gear is in the 1/1,000-1/2,000 second T5 range, that puts the T1 at well above that.

Hot shoe style strobes and the PCB Einstein with their IGBT shutoff switch circuitry are much faster with full power at around 1/1,000 second, however it is not until you get down to 1/16 power with a thyristor or IGBT controlled flash that you get into the 1/10.000 sec range.

Leaf shutters are not the answer to high speed sync issues, they just act as second apertures. Either very short duration flash via IGBT control, or HSS and fast shutter speeds are the best way to vastly out perform even the fastest leaf shutters.

 

[docholliday]

A flash typically lights the scene for about 1/10,000 of a second, so a faster shutter speed is usually of little consequence.

Studio strobes are not typically in the 1/10,000 second range, even Profoto gear is in the 1/1,000-1/2,000 second T5 range, that puts the T1 at well above that.

Hot shoe style strobes and the PCB Einstein with their IGBT shutoff switch circuitry are much faster with full power at around 1/1,000 second, however it is not until you get down to 1/16 power with a thyristor or IGBT controlled flash that you get into the 1/10.000 sec range.

Leaf shutters are not the answer to high speed sync issues, they just act as second apertures. Either very short duration flash via IGBT control, or HSS and fast shutter speeds are the best way to vastly out perform even the fastest leaf shutters.

Where the leaf shutter excels is when you need a lot of power alongside ambient. Shooting an 8'+ octabank in daylight where the background ambient is 1/500s at the required f-stop for DOF doesn't do too much with HSS. That's when you need the leaf to be able to sync the strobes. I did it all the time with my Hasselbads. When I shoot my 1Ds's, HSS just is disappointing outdoors because of it's limited usable range. It's almost easier to just pull out an Arri 4K and shoot it through an 8'+ scrim so that I don't have to worry about sync speed.

 

[privatebydesign]

A flash typically lights the scene for about 1/10,000 of a second, so a faster shutter speed is usually of little consequence.

Studio strobes are not typically in the 1/10,000 second range, even Profoto gear is in the 1/1,000-1/2,000 second T5 range, that puts the T1 at well above that.

Hot shoe style strobes and the PCB Einstein with their IGBT shutoff switch circuitry are much faster with full power at around 1/1,000 second, however it is not until you get down to 1/16 power with a thyristor or IGBT controlled flash that you get into the 1/10.000 sec range.

Leaf shutters are not the answer to high speed sync issues, they just act as second apertures. Either very short duration flash via IGBT control, or HSS and fast shutter speeds are the best way to vastly out perform even the fastest leaf shutters.

Where the leaf shutter excels is when you need a lot of power alongside ambient. Shooting an 8'+ octabank in daylight where the background ambient is 1/500s at the required f-stop for DOF doesn't do too much with HSS. That's when you need the leaf to be able to sync the strobes. I did it all the time with my Hasselbads. When I shoot my 1Ds's, HSS just is disappointing outdoors because of it's limited usable range. It's almost easier to just pull out an Arri 4K and shoot it through an 8'+ scrim so that I don't have to worry about sync speed.

And that doesn't contradict my comment one iota which was about flash duration.

However people make far too much of one stop either way, whilst I'd agree HSS has its limitations the difference between syncing at 1/250 and 1/500 is the same as shooting at 100iso or 50iso, which the Haseelblad (digital) doesn't do. So syncing at 1/500 and 100 iso with the Hasselblad gives you exactly the same ambient EV as syncing at 1/250 and 50 iso, which the 1Ds does do without the need or power loss of HSS. No need for hot lights or HSS to achieve equivalency in that situation.

 

[deleteme]

Conceptually, HSS is really making a flash mimic continuos light. The main problem being that HSS fails to provide enough power (yet) to make a difference at greater distances.

I am waiting to for the next fad of HSS implementation into monolights and packs once the fad of short duration has faded (pun intended).

 

[RLPhoto]

Leaf Shutters = Awesome sync speeds. If canon made a line-up of special leaf shutter lenses, I'd snatch up a few.

Getting a sync at all is the point of fast true sync speeds, It's really for cutting the ambient exposure.

 

[privatebydesign]

Leaf Shutters = Awesome sync speeds. If canon made a line-up of special leaf shutter lenses, I'd snatch up a few.

Getting a sync at all is the point of fast true sync speeds, It's really for cutting the ambient exposure.

Yes but as I tried to explain to you in the last thread about leaf shutters, one, they don't give you "true" sync in that the curtains are not fully open for long, and two, flash durations at any decent power are going to be longer than your sync speed anyway so you are severely limited in actual illuminating capability.

Leaf shutters are not the answer to high speed syncing of flash, electronic "shutters" are, the ability of several Nikon DSLR's with electronic exposure switch off (and the Canon 1D), and lots of P&S's that don't have shutters at all, to truly sync at any speed is proof of that.

 

[Drizzt321]

Leaf Shutters = Awesome sync speeds. If canon made a line-up of special leaf shutter lenses, I'd snatch up a few.

Getting a sync at all is the point of fast true sync speeds, It's really for cutting the ambient exposure.

Yes but as I tried to explain to you in the last thread about leaf shutters, one, they don't give you "true" sync in that the curtains are not fully open for long, and two, flash durations at any decent power are going to be longer than your sync speed anyway so you are severely limited in actual illuminating capability.

Leaf shutters are not the answer to high speed syncing of flash, electronic "shutters" are, the ability of several Nikon DSLR's with electronic exposure switch off (and the Canon 1D), and lots of P&S's that don't have shutters at all, to truly sync at any speed is proof of that.

What do you mean not a "true" sync? From my understand, the 'sync' of a camera is really just the entire sensor/film being exposed at the same point in time by the strobe. High speed sync is nothing more than (what is generally used by speedlites) is nothing more than stretching out the total amount of time the strobe lasts* so that the entire sensor gets exposed with the strobe.

Yes, a stobe lasts longer than just the peak, but modern strobes (at least the really expensive ones) can be a very, very small time slice. I'm looking at here and here. Basically, on a focal plane shutter camera at those fastest flash durations you can't use faster than your sync speed.

In a studio where you have complete control of all light, it doesn't matter as much because the flashes are so short in duration and easily overwhelm any ambient light, you get crisp & sharp images unless you are flailing the camera around. But if you go outdoors and try and combine strobes and sunlight, or other various light sources that you can't control, if you need a fast shutter to control the ambient lighting, you can't use the short duration strobes. And HSS is not the solution for many people, because they need high power to match the rest of the lighting. So you need a shutter which can be fast while still letting the strobes peak hit the sensor all at once, which is a leaf shutter.

* Yes, I know HSS is really just a whole bunch of lower powered flashes

 

[docholliday]

Leaf Shutters = Awesome sync speeds. If canon made a line-up of special leaf shutter lenses, I'd snatch up a few.

Getting a sync at all is the point of fast true sync speeds, It's really for cutting the ambient exposure.

Yes but as I tried to explain to you in the last thread about leaf shutters, one, they don't give you "true" sync in that the curtains are not fully open for long, and two, flash durations at any decent power are going to be longer than your sync speed anyway so you are severely limited in actual illuminating capability.

Leaf shutters are not the answer to high speed syncing of flash, electronic "shutters" are, the ability of several Nikon DSLR's with electronic exposure switch off (and the Canon 1D), and lots of P&S's that don't have shutters at all, to truly sync at any speed is proof of that.

What do you mean not a "true" sync? From my understand, the 'sync' of a camera is really just the entire sensor/film being exposed at the same point in time by the strobe. High speed sync is nothing more than (what is generally used by speedlites) is nothing more than stretching out the total amount of time the strobe lasts* so that the entire sensor gets exposed with the strobe.

Yes, a stobe lasts longer than just the peak, but modern strobes (at least the really expensive ones) can be a very, very small time slice. I'm looking at here and here. Basically, on a focal plane shutter camera at those fastest flash durations you can't use faster than your sync speed.

In a studio where you have complete control of all light, it doesn't matter as much because the flashes are so short in duration and easily overwhelm any ambient light, you get crisp & sharp images unless you are flailing the camera around. But if you go outdoors and try and combine strobes and sunlight, or other various light sources that you can't control, if you need a fast shutter to control the ambient lighting, you can't use the short duration strobes. And HSS is not the solution for many people, because they need high power to match the rest of the lighting. So you need a shutter which can be fast while still letting the strobes peak hit the sensor all at once, which is a leaf shutter.

* Yes, I know HSS is really just a whole bunch of lower powered flashes

Go and try to shoot things in motion with HSS (if you could get enough energy to actually light the scene propertly) - at some speeds and directions, you actually get what seems like blur, when actually its the strobe's multiple bursts freezing the movement milliseconds apart. A HSS "burst" is actually a bunch of fast, low powered bursts that are timed to give "even power" as the narrowed slit of the shutter is traveling along the plane of exposure attempting to give even total exposure overall to the shot. It's not "stretching out the total amount of time". The closest to that would be using something like Hypersync to fire the strobe earlier so that the lead and tail end of the burst is more usable, at the cost of a bit of clipping at one end or another.

With a leaf, you would get one burst, so the object would be captured in (1) moment of time, not multiples. A true sync of 1 burst of light to freeze 1 frame, not a bunch of tiny bursts makes the difference in some subject matters - I've gotten it shooting macro of insects. When not shooting HSS, wings are solid and crisp, but with HSS on, there's much more of what seems at first like motion blur when, due to the speed of the insect's wings, is actually multiple exposures of the wings in different positions micro-meters apart (when I printed to 60+ inches, you notice those uM=inches). So, I pushed up the hypersync on the PW's, clipped the bottom of the frame a bit, and nailed the shot using larger strobes set to the side instead of the twinlight with HSS and got a solid wing. If I would have had a leaf shutter, I could have done the same, but without clipping anything (and I wouldn't have needed my Pocketwizards) - I used to do that using a Metz 45 on HB all the time.

A flash typically lights the scene for about 1/10,000 of a second, so a faster shutter speed is usually of little consequence.

Studio strobes are not typically in the 1/10,000 second range, even Profoto gear is in the 1/1,000-1/2,000 second T5 range, that puts the T1 at well above that.

Hot shoe style strobes and the PCB Einstein with their IGBT shutoff switch circuitry are much faster with full power at around 1/1,000 second, however it is not until you get down to 1/16 power with a thyristor or IGBT controlled flash that you get into the 1/10.000 sec range.

Leaf shutters are not the answer to high speed sync issues, they just act as second apertures. Either very short duration flash via IGBT control, or HSS and fast shutter speeds are the best way to vastly out perform even the fastest leaf shutters.

Where the leaf shutter excels is when you need a lot of power alongside ambient. Shooting an 8'+ octabank in daylight where the background ambient is 1/500s at the required f-stop for DOF doesn't do too much with HSS. That's when you need the leaf to be able to sync the strobes. I did it all the time with my Hasselbads. When I shoot my 1Ds's, HSS just is disappointing outdoors because of it's limited usable range. It's almost easier to just pull out an Arri 4K and shoot it through an 8'+ scrim so that I don't have to worry about sync speed.

And that doesn't contradict my comment one iota which was about flash duration.

However people make far too much of one stop either way, whilst I'd agree HSS has its limitations the difference between syncing at 1/250 and 1/500 is the same as shooting at 100iso or 50iso, which the Haseelblad (digital) doesn't do. So syncing at 1/500 and 100 iso with the Hasselblad gives you exactly the same ambient EV as syncing at 1/250 and 50 iso, which the 1Ds does do without the need or power loss of HSS. No need for hot lights or HSS to achieve equivalency in that situation.

Wasn't contradicting you about flash duration (that's a given that it's almost always faster than the shutter speed) - the problem with 50 iso (in your example) would be that I'd lose DR where as the Hasselblad (digital) doesn't - and, that 1 stop of shutter speed usually does make a difference in the ambient's motion/lack of motion. I rarely use anything above ISO 100 (may go to 200 or 400 if necessary), but 95% of the time, it's at ISO100.

Now with studio strobes you can drop the duration for a given output by using a larger pack. Using a 3200j Bron Scoro at 1/2 power will give a faster duration than a 1600j pack at full or, you could use (2) 3200j packs at 1/4 power to drop it even more...been there, done that too...and it was an outdoor shoot. Granted, most people wouldn't care or even notice the details, but for the critical shoots and large printing, it makes all the world to nail it the first time around - I rarely post any images online and rarely print smaller than 11x14 nowadays...

 

[privatebydesign]

What I mean by true sync speed is what everybody understands as a sync speed, that is the entire sensor is unshaded by the shutter curtains for the full duration of the flash exposure, we all understand the black bar we get with focal plane shutters, what nobody espousing the vast superiority of leaf shutters seems to grasp is how they actually work. They open and close and it can take a surprisingly long time for them to do it. They do not expose the frame equally, it just appears that way because the shutter acts as a second aperture, this costs flash power and increases you flash illuminated dof.

Look at these videos and you will understand why the leaf shutter pundits are barking up the wrong tree. http://www.khousen.com/blog/files/Fuji%20X100s%20Shutter%20Speed.html

The only way to get "true" high speed sync is with electronic shutters.

As for the links, as I said earlier, the power output has a huge effect on the T1 and T5 times, the Einstein does so well because it has the same circuitry as our hot shoe strobes, IGBT cut off controllers. But those 1/13,000 exposure times are a 2.5Ws, nine stops down from full power! The $14,000 Profoto set puts out a mighty 4.5Ws....... If you can light something with 2.5Ws you could be using a $50 285 clone, if you needed 5Ws you could do it with two!

Of course that is a little tongue in cheek, but I just wish people who made silly comments believing in a technology that clearly don't understand it would lighten up.

As for the wonderful liquid images that seem to be the area most often needing very fast flash times, they are not relying on high sync speeds as much as short duration light pops, after all they lower the ambient to not become a factor in the exposure.

The people that need high speed sync are the ones trying to overcome uncontrollable ambient, but again this is often a diversion, after all once you go above sync and min iso you have to increase dof, and that is often not the desired payoff. So you need to use ND filters to control dof and these can control sync speed too.

As I said, one stop of sync speed is very workable, 1/250 for a focal plane shutter at 50 iso is just the same as your expensive leaf shutter equipped lens at 1/500 sync and 100 iso, you'd have to be crazy to pay any money for that non difference.

 

[Portrait_Moments_Photogra]

Phase ONE 645DF will sync at 1/1600th with FULL FLASH Output.

 

[privatebydesign]

Phase ONE 645DF will sync at 1/1600th with FULL FLASH Output.

I'd like video proof of that. Not saying it couldn't be done, but as my linked videos illustrate what it says on the box isn't necessarily so, I'd be interested in how they do it and how fast the shutter blades are moving.

Oh, and yet again, what flashes output decent power at T1 times of 1/1600? There is equipment to do this stuff, but if you need it you already understand the issues.

 

[bycostello]

give it a year or 2 and they'll all be electronic shutters

 

[docholliday]

What I mean by true sync speed is what everybody understands as a sync speed, that is the entire sensor is unshaded by the shutter curtains for the full duration of the flash exposure, we all understand the black bar we get with focal plane shutters, what nobody espousing the vast superiority of leaf shutters seems to grasp is how they actually work. They open and close and it can take a surprisingly long time for them to do it. They do not expose the frame equally, it just appears that way because the shutter acts as a second aperture, this costs flash power and increases you flash illuminated dof.

Look at these videos and you will understand why the leaf shutter pundits are barking up the wrong tree. http://www.khousen.com/blog/files/Fuji%20X100s%20Shutter%20Speed.html

The only way to get "true" high speed sync is with electronic shutters.

As for the links, as I said earlier, the power output has a huge effect on the T1 and T5 times, the Einstein does so well because it has the same circuitry as our hot shoe strobes, IGBT cut off controllers. But those 1/13,000 exposure times are a 2.5Ws, nine stops down from full power! The $14,000 Profoto set puts out a mighty 4.5Ws....... If you can light something with 2.5Ws you could be using a $50 285 clone, if you needed 5Ws you could do it with two!

Of course that is a little tongue in cheek, but I just wish people who made silly comments believing in a technology that clearly don't understand it would lighten up.

As for the wonderful liquid images that seem to be the area most often needing very fast flash times, they are not relying on high sync speeds as much as short duration light pops, after all they lower the ambient to not become a factor in the exposure.

The people that need high speed sync are the ones trying to overcome uncontrollable ambient, but again this is often a diversion, after all once you go above sync and min iso you have to increase dof, and that is often not the desired payoff. So you need to use ND filters to control dof and these can control sync speed too.

As I said, one stop of sync speed is very workable, 1/250 for a focal plane shutter at 50 iso is just the same as your expensive leaf shutter equipped lens at 1/500 sync and 100 iso, you'd have to be crazy to pay any money for that non difference.

I think we'll just agree to disagree. I've owned my share of leaf shutters, used them to their advantages, and will now stop discussing the merits of either so that I can get back to what I was doing...shooting. Each tool has it's uses and their times, and I'll go now use mine for what they were intended...

Phase ONE 645DF will sync at 1/1600th with FULL FLASH Output.

I completely forgot about the DF doing 1/1600 with a leaf shutter - a colleague routinely uses his IQ160 to do high sync on a set of Verso's firing about 1/2 power each bound into a single box. They are nice...beautiful studio fashion work with pin-sharp stop motion and aerial ambiance.

 

[Drizzt321]

What I mean by true sync speed is what everybody understands as a sync speed, that is the entire sensor is unshaded by the shutter curtains for the full duration of the flash exposure, we all understand the black bar we get with focal plane shutters, what nobody espousing the vast superiority of leaf shutters seems to grasp is how they actually work. They open and close and it can take a surprisingly long time for them to do it. They do not expose the frame equally, it just appears that way because the shutter acts as a second aperture, this costs flash power and increases you flash illuminated dof.

Look at these videos and you will understand why the leaf shutter pundits are barking up the wrong tree. http://www.khousen.com/blog/files/Fuji%20X100s%20Shutter%20Speed.html

The only way to get "true" high speed sync is with electronic shutters.

As for the links, as I said earlier, the power output has a huge effect on the T1 and T5 times, the Einstein does so well because it has the same circuitry as our hot shoe strobes, IGBT cut off controllers. But those 1/13,000 exposure times are a 2.5Ws, nine stops down from full power! The $14,000 Profoto set puts out a mighty 4.5Ws....... If you can light something with 2.5Ws you could be using a $50 285 clone, if you needed 5Ws you could do it with two!

Of course that is a little tongue in cheek, but I just wish people who made silly comments believing in a technology that clearly don't understand it would lighten up.

As for the wonderful liquid images that seem to be the area most often needing very fast flash times, they are not relying on high sync speeds as much as short duration light pops, after all they lower the ambient to not become a factor in the exposure.

The people that need high speed sync are the ones trying to overcome uncontrollable ambient, but again this is often a diversion, after all once you go above sync and min iso you have to increase dof, and that is often not the desired payoff. So you need to use ND filters to control dof and these can control sync speed too.

As I said, one stop of sync speed is very workable, 1/250 for a focal plane shutter at 50 iso is just the same as your expensive leaf shutter equipped lens at 1/500 sync and 100 iso, you'd have to be crazy to pay any money for that non difference.

Reading the Strobist, he's shooting fine at 1/1000 wide open. Yes, the physics and design of leaf shutters can sometimes limit the actual sync-speed, but it will definitely depend on which lens/body and which shutters are used. For the example from the Strobist, that's still 2 stops of light compared to a 1/250s focal plane shutter.

Also there are some videos at http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/Leaf-Shutter-Lenses/LS-In-action.aspx which help show some of the places where they need the fast leaf shutters along with strobes that sync at those speeds.

 

[privatebydesign]

My point was not there is no need or point to high end gear, there is a point and need. I actually own MF and large format gear with leaf shutters. I 100% agree that there are shots taken with MF digital that can't be shot with 135 format gear, that is a fact despite some posters stated belief that gear is just a matter of convenience and any shot could be shot with any gear given time and thought!

My point was unless you actually understand how it works and the limitations it has then jumping on the term "leaf shutter" as a seemingly all encompassing panacea of creative sync work is inaccurate. Thinking that a leaf shutter in an EOS lens would actually give you much additional creativity is fraught with errors, to realise any of those additional capabilities you would need more than just a lens with a leaf shutter. As for an EOS lens with a leaf shutter that gave you 1/500 instead of 1/250 sync, well there is a very good reason that hasn't been made (though you could easily use a current lens with a convertor), the cost would not be worth the effort.

 

[Drizzt321]

My point was not there is no need or point to high end gear, there is a point and need. I actually own MF and large format gear with leaf shutters. I 100% agree that there are shots taken with MF digital that can't be shot with 135 format gear, that is a fact despite some posters stated belief that gear is just a matter of convenience and any shot could be shot with any gear given time and thought!

My point was unless you actually understand how it works and the limitations it has then jumping on the term "leaf shutter" as a seemingly all encompassing panacea of creative sync work is inaccurate. Thinking that a leaf shutter in an EOS lens would actually give you much additional creativity is fraught with errors, to realise any of those additional capabilities you would need more than just a lens with a leaf shutter. As for an EOS lens with a leaf shutter that gave you 1/500 instead of 1/250 sync, well there is a very good reason that hasn't been made (though you could easily use a current lens with a convertor), the cost would not be worth the effort.

Ah, my reading of your postings were "just use 35mm focal plane since leaf shutters are overrated".

I definitely agree that just "leaf shutter" doesn't automatically solve all problems, and is just one piece (albeit maybe very important) in capturing what you want. It would be quite interested to see someone put together an adapter that will do that, but that's more of a "that's cool" than useful except for a limited cases.

 

[RLPhoto]

some posters stated belief that gear is just a matter of convenience and any shot could be shot with any gear given time and thought!

U mad bro? Don't be hurt because other's here also called you out on the convenient applications of a leaf shutter.

 

[bvukich]

some posters stated belief that gear is just a matter of convenience and any shot could be shot with any gear given time and thought!

U mad bro? Don't be hurt because other's here also called you out on the convenient applications of a leaf shutter.

As privatebydesign correctly pointed out, there are applications that would be served by having a leaf shutter, but none that wouldn't be BETTER served by having an electronic shutter. You get all the benefits (but instead of only 1-2 stops gain, you're bound only by flash duration), without all the caveats of a leaf shutter.

 

[RLPhoto]

some posters stated belief that gear is just a matter of convenience and any shot could be shot with any gear given time and thought!

U mad bro? Don't be hurt because other's here also called you out on the convenient applications of a leaf shutter.

As privatebydesign correctly pointed out, there are applications that would be served by having a leaf shutter, but none that wouldn't be BETTER served by having an electronic shutter. You get all the benefits (but instead of only 1-2 stops gain, you're bound only by flash duration), without all the caveats of a leaf shutter.

Indeed, That's why I use my g15 for its sync speed but leaf shutters are a decent compromise. Afterall, It's about two stops of ambient cutting power.