Lexar Announces Development of SD Express Memory Cards

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,308
427
SD Express has 0% market share. And SD is an obsolete format. Why replace SD with SD Express when we already have CF Express A&B established in a much more sturdy forms. You will be buying £250 SD Express cards or £250 CF Express cards, why let a format that should have ran its course years ago continue? Especially when consumer cameras are a dying breed themselves.
CF Express A is hardly established. Currently, there are no cheap CFExpress B cards, which deters me from buying an R5. Sure, current CFExpress cards have better performance, but that doesn't matter if I'm shooting portraits, panoramas, or time lapses.
 

EOS 4 Life

EOS R
Sep 20, 2020
989
786
CF Express A is hardly established. Currently, there are no cheap CFExpress B cards, which deters me from buying an R5. Sure, current CFExpress cards have better performance, but that doesn't matter if I'm shooting portraits, panoramas, or time lapses.
There are cheap CF Express Type-B cards from Pergear but I do not have the courage to trust my images to them.
I am not one to cheap out on media.
 

Codebunny

Elil
Sep 5, 2018
913
932
Scotland
CF Express A is hardly established. Currently, there are no cheap CFExpress B cards, which deters me from buying an R5. Sure, current CFExpress cards have better performance, but that doesn't matter if I'm shooting portraits, panoramas, or time lapses.
A 128 GB CF Express B card is £250 and a 128 GB SD UHS-II card is £250. SD Express cards will not be £20 like UHS-I cards, you wont save anything. And eventually will need these expensive cards as cameras need them.
 

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,308
427
Seems to me SD is dying because the standard is progressing quickly, but nobody is adopting it. Anyone seen UHS-III cards? SDUC? Devices that support A2? Bueller? Bueller? Ah, yes, the market has just caught up with UHS-II, and those cards would underperform in SD Express slots. I don't see Canon releasing an R6mkII with two SD Express slots.

Lexar is announcing a PCIe 3.1x1 SD 7.0 card, right after the new 8.0 standard was released with support for PCIe 4.0.
 

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,308
427
A 128 GB CF Express B card is £250 and a 128 GB SD UHS-II card is £250. SD Express cards will not be £20 like UHS-I cards, you wont save anything. And eventually will need these expensive cards as cameras need them.
Just checked B&H, there's a 2 pack of 128GB Lexar cards, UHS-II, V60, 1667x, for $71.99. There's a 256GB card by angelbird (UHS-II & v60 as well) for $109.

"as cameras need them" for what? I've never short 4K video, and rarely shoot FHD*. One of the reasons I'm considering upgrading a 5DmkIV to an R6 is because the later has 2 SD slots, which allow me to have cheap backup cards.

* Yes, I know some photographers shoot 4K and 8K, and need performant cards. But some don't, and they'd appreciate if you didn't force them to spend money on fast cards they don't need.
 

Codebunny

Elil
Sep 5, 2018
913
932
Scotland
Just checked B&H, there's a 2 pack of 128GB Lexar cards, UHS-II, V60, 1667x, for $71.99. There's a 256GB card by angelbird (UHS-II & v60 as well) for $109.

"as cameras need them" for what? I've never short 4K video, and rarely shoot FHD*. One of the reasons I'm considering upgrading a 5DmkIV to an R6 is because the later has 2 SD slots, which allow me to have cheap backup cards.

* Yes, I know some photographers shoot 4K and 8K, and need performant cards. But some don't, and they'd appreciate if you didn't force them to spend money on fast cards they don't need.
https://www.parkcameras.com/shop/sony-sdxc-tough-series-128gb-300mbs_7057613x £214 300 MB/s read and 299 MB/s write.
https://www.parkcameras.com/shop/sony-cfexpress-tough-series-128gb-1700mb_7057616c £259 1700 MB/s read and 1480 MB/s write.

Edit(2): That Lextor card might as well be UHS-I, it is 250 MB/s read and up to 120 MB/s write. Something had to give to get it at that price, and that was write speed. Speaking off if you want a cheep CF Express card, ones with 1000 MB/s read and 500 MB/s write are coming to the market for the under £100 crowd: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B095BFDCGR/

Yes the SD card is a wee bit cheeper (depending on time of month and alignment of the moon). But the CF Express card is more durable and faster. There is so little between them. You might not ever need the speed of CF Express. But having the whole industry on that standard will help you get prices down. SD Express will not be any cheeper and it is certainly still going to be a flimsy thing for consumer cameras where it doesn't matter if their is some corruption or the card snaps in half.

Edit:

On backward compatibility. SD Express falls back to UHS-I speeds on UHS-I and UHS-II readers/cameras and likewise UHS-II cards run at UHS-I speed on SD Express slots. The pins to make SD Express work replace the UHS-II pins with the original pins left on for backwards compatibility. So all your fast (comparatively to UHS-I) UHS-II SD cards slow down to 60-100 MB/s in SD Express cameras and the SD Express cards slow to a crawl on card readers. Since these will do into consumer cameras, users will likely not be affected as they'll just transfer wirelessly or plug the camera right into the machine if they have a SD Express card.
 
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Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,308
427
Your point being...?
Edit(2): That Lextor card might as well be UHS-I, it is 250 MB/s read and up to 120 MB/s write. Something had to give to get it at that price, and that was write speed. Speaking off if you want a cheep CF Express card, ones with 1000 MB/s read and 500 MB/s write are coming to the market for the under £100 crowd: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B095BFDCGR/
This is a new brand, pardon me for not trusting it.
Yes the SD card is a wee bit cheaper (depending on time of month and alignment of the moon).
Depending on speed, it might be a whole lot cheaper. E.g. the SanDisk Extreme Pro V30 512GB SDXC card is priced $125.95, about the same as the pergear CFExpress card. Its slower, but again - for those who don't need fast, its nice to have cheaper.
But the CF Express card is more durable and faster.
I never had durability issues with SD.
There is so little between them. You might not ever need the speed of CF Express. But having the whole industry on that standard will help you get prices down.
How nice of you to force me to buy expensive now so I could buy cheap later, when I can buy cheap right now.
SD Express will not be any cheaper
But the SD slot will be compatible with slower, cheaper SD cards.
and it is certainly still going to be a flimsy thing for consumer cameras where it doesn't matter if their is some corruption or the card snaps in half.
Never had an SD card snap in half. Had the pins in my 5Dmk3 bend.
On backward compatibility. SD Express falls back to UHS-I speeds on UHS-I and UHS-II readers/cameras and likewise UHS-II cards run at UHS-I speed on SD Express slots.
So? I can shoot portraits, panoramas, and time lapses with UHS-I speeds.
The pins to make SD Express work replace the UHS-II pins with the original pins left on for backwards compatibility. So all your fast (comparatively to UHS-I) UHS-II SD cards slow down to 60-100 MB/s in SD Express cameras and the SD Express cards slow to a crawl on card readers.
CFExpress will force me to buy new cards anyway, so where's the advantage?
Since these will do into consumer cameras, users will likely not be affected as they'll just transfer wirelessly or plug the camera right into the machine if they have a SD Express card.
Huh? Wirelessly to where? You want me to carry a laptop? Because its small & cheap?
 

Codebunny

Elil
Sep 5, 2018
913
932
Scotland
Your point being...?
SD cards are bloody expensive for what they are.

This is a new brand, pardon me for not trusting it.
Lextor is also a new brand, it is not the Lextor we used to buy.

Depending on speed, it might be a whole lot cheaper. E.g. the SanDisk Extreme Pro V30 512GB SDXC card is priced $125.95, about the same as the pergear CFExpress card. Its slower, but again - for those who don't need fast, its nice to have cheaper.
Slower less reliable cards for consumers are cheeper. But we aren't talking about SD cards, we are talking about SD Express and that if you have to move to new cards anyway, lets just default to the better format.

I never had durability issues with SD.
While I can also say the same about all manner of things, that doesn't change that SD cards do fail more often than other cards when the user sample size is greater than one.

How nice of you to force me to buy expensive now so I could buy cheap later, when I can buy cheap right now.
You aren't being forced. You can choose to use an older camera that still uses CF or SD and continue to use your old cards. But let's make the better format take over. SD Express is bigger than CF Express A and only slightly smaller than CF Express B. It is slower, and has all the durability issues of SD. SD Express never taking off will not stop your existing cameras from working.

But the SD slot will be compatible with slower, cheaper SD cards.
And the SD slot can remain on cheeper cameras or be a dual CF Express A slot.

Never had an SD card snap in half. Had the pins in my 5Dmk3 bend.
CF Express does not use pins like CF. And again, you are a sample size of one.

So? I can shoot portraits, panoramas, and time lapses with UHS-I speeds.
Thats great, but will that pan out when the cameras sold are 100 MP? 16 bit RAW? This isn't about what you can do today, it is about the next decade and hopefully not being stuck with SD cards.

CFExpress will force me to buy new cards anyway, so where's the advantage?
SD Express will force you to buy new cards that are slower and less durable than CF Express. The could be cheeper or more expensive. Or as they are just now you get a worse product for the same money.

Huh? Wirelessly to where? You want me to carry a laptop? Because its small & cheap?
SD cards are primarily used in consumer devices so that card once in is never coming out so when you get home you can shove it next to your desktop and 'download' the photos from the camera. I am surprised built in storage hasn't killed SD already.
 

wsmith96

Advancing Amateur
Aug 17, 2012
948
41
Texas
SD cards are bloody expensive for what they are.


Lextor is also a new brand, it is not the Lextor we used to buy.


Slower less reliable cards for consumers are cheeper. But we aren't talking about SD cards, we are talking about SD Express and that if you have to move to new cards anyway, lets just default to the better format.


While I can also say the same about all manner of things, that doesn't change that SD cards do fail more often than other cards when the user sample size is greater than one.


You aren't being forced. You can choose to use an older camera that still uses CF or SD and continue to use your old cards. But let's make the better format take over. SD Express is bigger than CF Express A and only slightly smaller than CF Express B. It is slower, and has all the durability issues of SD. SD Express never taking off will not stop your existing cameras from working.


And the SD slot can remain on cheeper cameras or be a dual CF Express A slot.


CF Express does not use pins like CF. And again, you are a sample size of one.


Thats great, but will that pan out when the cameras sold are 100 MP? 16 bit RAW? This isn't about what you can do today, it is about the next decade and hopefully not being stuck with SD cards.


SD Express will force you to buy new cards that are slower and less durable than CF Express. The could be cheeper or more expensive. Or as they are just now you get a worse product for the same money.


SD cards are primarily used in consumer devices so that card once in is never coming out so when you get home you can shove it next to your desktop and 'download' the photos from the camera. I am surprised built in storage hasn't killed SD already.
You are very passionate about this topic.... It's just a memory card. They are expensive when they are first introduced. A year later, they are pennies. This conversation is heading in the direction of betamax vs VHS. Yes, betamax is technically better, but VHS was the clear winner because it was good enough. In your situation, use the CF express card as it provides the performance you are demanding. Others may not demand that performance and for them, SD cards are good enough.
 

wsmith96

Advancing Amateur
Aug 17, 2012
948
41
Texas
It is a shame to site Camera memory Speed slowly die off, it has not been update in a long long time, I assume it will just disappear one day.
Yes, I was being hopeful as the information on that site is valuable. It may indeed be dying.
 

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,308
427
SD cards are bloody expensive for what they are.
For what you think they are.
Lextor is also a new brand, it is not the Lextor we used to buy.
I've never heard of Lextor. If you mean Lexar, there are plenty of other brands making SD cards cheaper than CFExpress.
Slower less reliable cards for consumers are cheeper.
I'll assume you mean cheaper, and that you have proof that, for the same $/MB, CFExpress is more reliable (not faster, more reliable) than SD, other than throwing adjectives like flimsy.
But we aren't talking about SD cards, we are talking about SD Express and that if you have to move to new cards anyway, lets just default to the better format.
You're telling me what I'm talking about, and how I define better?
While I can also say the same about all manner of things, that doesn't change that SD cards do fail more often than other cards when the user sample size is greater than one.
And your source showing SD cards fail more often than CFExpress cards is...?
You aren't being forced. You can choose to use an older camera that still uses CF or SD and continue to use your old cards.
I never said I am, and there new cameras, such as the R6, that use SD cards.
But let's make the better format take over. SD Express is bigger than CF Express A and only slightly smaller than CF Express B. It is slower, and has all the durability issues of SD.
And, again, your source for the durability issues is...?
SD Express never taking off will not stop your existing cameras from working.
Never said it did.
CF Express does not use pins like CF. And again, you are a sample size of one.
You think I'm the only one who had CD pins bent? Oh, please.
Thats great, but will that pan out when the cameras sold are 100 MP? 16 bit RAW?
1. You think 100MP will become mainstream. I disagree, e.g. Canon's new R6 has 20MP, and the 6DmkII 26MP.

2. Even with 100MP sensor, current SD speeds will still be sufficient for many shooting styles.

This isn't about what you can do today, it is about the next decade and hopefully not being stuck with SD cards.
Its about people would do in the next decade, and what would be the cheapest solution for them. Plenty of photographers, e.g. studio & nature, would do just fine with current SD cards' speed.
SD Express will force you to buy new cards that are slower and less durable than CF Express.
Again, your source is for SD cards being less durable than CFExpress at all, and to the point of giving less bang for the buck, is...?
The could be cheeper or more expensive. Or as they are just now you get a worse product for the same money.
Again, support your claim.
SD cards are primarily used in consumer devices
I don't understand how you would interpret that so it would actually make sense.
so that card once in is never coming out so when you get home you can shove it next to your desktop and 'download' the photos from the camera. I am surprised built in storage hasn't killed SD already.
Oh, I can, its just that I don't know anyone who does. Also, every laptop I bought in the past decade had a microSD slot. Apparently the manufacturers missed something you do.
 
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Kiton

Too deep in Canon to list! :o
Jun 13, 2015
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Oh, I can, its just that I don't know anyone who does. Also, every laptop I bought in the past decade had a microSD slot. Apparently the manufacturers missed something you do.
Major piss of with Apple, they did away with the SD card slot. Personally I feel that was a stupid move! I guess they feel the majority of "soft" users hard wire or use wifi? I think many of us daily users would love to have the SD slot back! Fortuantly ProGrade makes a CFexpress and SD card reader, so I can ingest both cards with one reader, thereby only using one USB slot.
 

FrenchFry

Wildlife enthusiast!
Jun 14, 2020
440
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They are expensive when they are first introduced. A year later, they are pennies.

Someone should let the retailers know. I was looking at pricing for a 256GB CFexpress B card this weekend and it was over $350, even though these cards are over a year old. 35,000 is a lot of pennies!

I think it takes more like 3-5 years for prices to meaningfully fall beyond special sales like Black Friday.

I am really liking CFExpress B so far and very much looking forward to the days where pricing is below $1/GB. The more manufacturers that adopt this format, the quicker that day will come.
 

Codebunny

Elil
Sep 5, 2018
913
932
Scotland
Major piss of with Apple, they did away with the SD card slot. Personally I feel that was a stupid move! I guess they feel the majority of "soft" users hard wire or use wifi? I think many of us daily users would love to have the SD slot back! Fortuantly ProGrade makes a CFexpress and SD card reader, so I can ingest both cards with one reader, thereby only using one USB slot.

SD slots made sense in their consumer laptops but not in the pro machines. Now if they want to put in a modern card reader, that is PCIe lanes that could go to another TB3 port or space for a bigger battery. And when they did have it the read speed was terrible compared to an external reader and they only had SD when at the time pro cameras were using CF only or CF with a crippled SD backup slot. I don't know about you, but I have all the TB3 ports in use at times and often want more.

I haven't seen a computer with built in SD for over a decade, though plenty still have USB-A, keeping that port alive and taking away much of the incentive to move on. For all it costs to buy a USB-B or USB-B 3.0 to USB-C cable.
 

Dragon

EF 800L
May 29, 2019
491
454
CFast and CF cards were more expensive than the same capacity SD cards but were no match in speed/performance.

CFe Type B card spec came out in 2017 and there was already healthy competition from a number of OEMs in 2021 with multiple cameras using them. SD USH-II cards were approximately the same cost as CFe cards when I bought them last year but seem to have dropped a bit in price but are topping out at ~300MB/s vs 1400MB/s CFe Type B write speeds.

4 year introduction time for SD Express cards and no camera using them yet. Max speed from Lexar appears to be 400MB/s write speed ie 30% more than USH-II speeds today but no match for CFe Type B. There needs to be volume and unless there are cameras released or alternative uses then I can't see where the volume/price reduction will come from.

People are still buying cheap SD class 1 cards and have difficulties understanding what cards are required for 4k/30 video. The speed/naming classes are a mess with SD. Ubiquitous but very confusing.
To your last point, even CFE cards are confusing. I had to do a fair bit of shopping to find a CFE card for the R5 that was actually fast enough. Most of the lower capacity cards are not, but you really have to dig to find the actual specs. Memory card speeds are kind of like lithium battery ampere hours. We lost 'truth in advertising" long ago.
 

wsmith96

Advancing Amateur
Aug 17, 2012
948
41
Texas
Someone should let the retailers know. I was looking at pricing for a 256GB CFexpress B card this weekend and it was over $350, even though these cards are over a year old. 35,000 is a lot of pennies!

I think it takes more like 3-5 years for prices to meaningfully fall beyond special sales like Black Friday.

I am really liking CFExpress B so far and very much looking forward to the days where pricing is below $1/GB. The more manufacturers that adopt this format, the quicker that day will come.
Hmm. I took a look at some pricing history on a lexar card and for the size you listed it's gone from $400 down to ~$280 in a year. I think that the global chip shortage is driving costs back up. A lot of companies dealing with supply shortages.

for reference: https://www.cpricewatch.com/product/07333/Lexar-256GB-Professional-CFexpress-Type-B-price.html

Even the san disk hit $300. Generally when they go that low they don't come back up that high, but they did. But again to my argument, the graphs show about a 25% decline in price over one year with both cards coming back up. I say this is a global supply chain issue right now and that your cards will go down again. Let's hope they go back down soon!
 
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Kiton

Too deep in Canon to list! :o
Jun 13, 2015
150
134
Its about people would do in the next decade, and what would be the cheapest solution for them. Plenty of photographers, e.g. studio & nature, would do just fine with current SD cards' speed.
Agreed, if I could tame the frame rate of silent mode a little, jpegs to the SD card would be fine. but at full rate, it is just a little too much data for the current SD card config.
SD slots made sense in their consumer laptops but not in the pro machines. Now if they want to put in a modern card reader, that is PCIe lanes that could go to another TB3 port or space for a bigger battery. And when they did have it the read speed was terrible compared to an external reader and they only had SD when at the time pro cameras were using CF only or CF with a crippled SD backup slot. I don't know about you, but I have all the TB3 ports in use at times and often want more.

I haven't seen a computer with built in SD for over a decade, though plenty still have USB-A, keeping that port alive and taking away much of the incentive to move on. For all it costs to buy a USB-B or USB-B 3.0 to USB-C cable.
Agreed, but it was nice when you are at a rink, or editing and sending pictures from the side of a boxing ring etc etc not to have a cable that can get pulled out by mistake on deadline. 98% of the time, I am using all 4 USB-C ports on my macbook pro. But there are odd times when I wish I could just slide an SD card in to the machine and work quickly to hammer out a few pictures and get back to shooting.

I use Photo Mechanic to ingest and bulk caption and re-name all the files, so often the the speed is not the biggest concern as I ingest incrementally as the night goes on, but having the cable pulled out by mistake or having the reader dangling sucks.

I guess this is really just a case of wanting everything :(
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,409
2,271
SD Express will force you to buy new cards that are slower and less durable than CF Express.

Uh, no it won't...you will be able to use your existing SD cards there.

Buying a camera with a CF Express slot (because Canon took your advice) WILL force you to buy new media even if regular SD speeds are satisfactory, if you have been using SD all along.

You are in the position of advocating forcing everyone else to upgrade to what you like (and never mind the fact that the reasons you give for liking it have largely been debunked by other replies). I generally agree with the things you say but this time, I really hope you don't get what you want, here.
 

David - Sydney

EOS R
CR Pro
Dec 7, 2014
910
759
www.flickr.com
To your last point, even CFE cards are confusing. I had to do a fair bit of shopping to find a CFE card for the R5 that was actually fast enough. Most of the lower capacity cards are not, but you really have to dig to find the actual specs. Memory card speeds are kind of like lithium battery ampere hours. We lost 'truth in advertising" long ago.
Fair point. The OEMs of the CFe Type B cards haven't been clear about the write speeds. Canon did provide a list of supported cards but Sandisk wasn't included for instance. Even looking up spec sheets didn't always show the sustained write speed. No issues with Sony Tough though.

That said, even the slowest Type B card looks to be faster recording speed than the Lexar SD Express @ 400MB/s :)
 

David - Sydney

EOS R
CR Pro
Dec 7, 2014
910
759
www.flickr.com
I get why you might not be sure, but what I mean by pointless is that I don't really see much of a point in a combined CF Express Type-A/SD slot over simply having an SD Express slot. No one was making CF Express Type A cards at the time and Sony chose to make the drives and the media when they could have done the same thing for SD Express.
Sony didn't have a choice but to use the dual SD USH-II/Type A slot on the A1. They needed to support 8K recording which UHS-II can't do and their body is small so dual CFe Type B wasn't an option. Can you imagine the situation where the A1 was future proof by including CFe Type A but there was no cards available to support their 8k recording? Sony had to make them because no one is.

CFe Type B spec was launched 2Q17 => multiple OEMs and multiple cameras using them in 2020
CFe Type A spec was launched 1Q19 => 1 OEM and 1 camera using them in 2021
SD UHS-II spec was launch in 2014 => Wikipedia says that >50 cameras is now using it in 2021 so it must be true :)
SD UHS-III spec was launched 1Q17 => no support from OEM or users
SD Express spec 7 was launched 2Q18 => had hacking issues
SD Express spec 8 was launched 2Q20 => extra row of pins. 2021 = 1 OEM and no camera using them. Backward compatible to UHS-I
I would suggest that SD Express is late to the party and could be rendered obsolete just as UHS-III has been
Anecdotally, A1 users are not buying CFe Type A cards yet due to their current cost, capacity limitations and availability relying instead on USH-II cards

I get the SD card backward compatibility benefits but that is the only benefit that I can see. It takes a few years to get manufacturers to make and distribute new cards after the spec is released. CFe Type B and UHS-II has been successful but SD Express brings a limited incremental performance (based on the Lexar announcement) and still slow compared to CFe B
By form factor, I mean around the same size. CF Express Type A and SD are not the same sizes either.
True but they can be combined into one slot which the A1 needed. XQD and CFe Type B cards also use the same physical slot.