Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...

[neuroanatomist]

and there are enough tests that show that nikkors are often better then the equivalent canon.

Which ones? 24-70? Canon wins (with the MkII, that is). 24-105? Canon wins. 70-200/2.8? Canon wins. TS-E/PC-E 24mm? Canon wins. Pretty much the entire supertele lineup? Canon wins. UWA zoom? Nikon wins. Macro lenses? Toss-up on quality, Canon wins on variety. Fast primes? About an even split.

So, where's the list of 'often better' Nikkors?

 

[RustyTheGeek]

I agree with neuro - Canon has been known for their exceptional lens lineup for years. Nothing necc wrong with Nikon if that's the system you're invested in but if you're just starting out, Canon is hard to beat on lenses and Canon adds/updates lenses on a consistent timeline. Canon has recently increased their new lens prices but hopefully that will change in 2013. The quality is still there, it's just a little too expensive for new at the moment.

 

[RS2021]

The 6D is a repackaged 5D2, which is a repackaged 20D w/ a FF sensor.

+1 true.

Canon plays it safe nowadays and makes incremental moves since the past 2 decades. They used to be a lot bolder (remember the FD to EF mount jump?). Big dog syndrome has set in since the 90's.

 

[RS2021]

and there are enough tests that show that nikkors are often better then the equivalent canon.

This is patently false, Canon by reputation which translates to the obvious supremacy in market share owns the consumer and professional SLR lens market today...you have to move up to higher formats to see other players and Canon wisely doesn't dabble in those markets. So much so, their supremacy in the SLR lens market is in fact the basis of their marketing leverage in pricing their bodies a smidge higher, and getting away with small annoyances like not including hoods even for some 1K L's (70-200L f/4 IS for example). This is the typical behaviour of a confident company that says "see what I can get away with...suck it up".

Nikon had a leg up in the UWA zoom range...but somehow I think this will be rectified very very soon by Canon.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

The 6D is a repackaged 5D2, which is a repackaged 20D w/ a FF sensor.

+1 true.

Canon plays it safe nowadays and makes incremental moves since the past 2 decades. They used to be a lot bolder (remember the FD to EF mount jump?). Big dog syndrome has set in since the 90's.

I wish that someone who has actual experience using multiple Canon cameras (including the 6D) would explain what ...

'The 6D is a repackaged 5D2, which is a repackaged 20D w/ a FF sensor.'

... even means. It sounds like an assertion that Canon cameras haven't changed in 10+ years. And many seem to agree. What am I missing? And if this is the case, why is Canon equipment still in their bag?

 

[RustyTheGeek]

and there are enough tests that show that nikkors are often better then the equivalent canon.

This is patently false, Canon by reputation which translates to the obvious supremacy in market share owns the consumer and professional SLR lens market today...you have to move up to higher formats to see other players and Canon wisely doesn't dabble in those markets. So much so, their supremacy in the SLR lens market is in fact the basis of their marketing leverage in pricing their bodies a smidge higher, and getting away with small annoyances like not including hoods even for some 1K L's (70-200L f/4 IS for example). This is the typical behaviour of a confident company that says "see what I can get away with...suck it up".

Nikon had a leg up in the UWA zoom range...but somehow I think this will be rectified very very soon by Canon.

Canon is a very large company with many divisions besides photography. They have a lot of resources to draw from to produce exceptional products. I completely agree that they do whatever they think they can get away with with regard to price and small annoyances like omitting hoods, etc from $1K lens offerings, etc. That is the irritation I feel when buying Canon these days. They send the message with these habits that they don't really care about your pocketbook or loyalty because they assume they will have both anyway. It's a bit insulting. And since I don't make a living from photography, I occasionally wonder why I even bother. Sometimes selling everything and just going back to having a single body and 2 or 3 good lenses and a flash sounds mighty appealing. Take that Canon! (Me = insignificant consumer insect shaking tiny insect fist at mighty Canon juggernaut.)

 

[RS2021]

I wish that someone who has actual experience using multiple Canon cameras (including the 6D) would explain what ...

'The 6D is a repackaged 5D2, which is a repackaged 20D w/ a FF sensor.'

... even means. It sounds like an assertion that Canon cameras haven't changed in 10+ years. And many seem to agree. What am I missing? And if this is the case, why is Canon equipment still in their bag?

This is not a personal attack on Canon's overall quality...just calling it like it is... 6D is a safe move up introducing some new features... it is an incremental move...not a revolutionary move by any means...that's what the comment made by me and others means...

I also said in a different thread that once the 6D price settles down from the initial high, it would be a good value and a competent camera in its own right.

I may be a Canon user, but I don't believe in mindlessly defending Canon at every turn where every single thing they do is the second coming that needs to be venerated and praised to high heavens. Sometimes what they do is just plain ordinary or market driven and that's ok too.

I use Canon because I like the overall platform. I call the 6D an incremental move because it is.

 

[RS2021]

.... Sometimes selling everything and just going back to having a single body and 2 or 3 good lenses and a flash sounds mighty appealing. Take that Canon! (Me = insignificant consumer insect shaking tiny insect fist at mighty Canon juggernaut.)

Oh but that will be like cutting one's nose to spite the face....so when push comes to shove, neither I nor you would want to go back to the early years...

But... "shaking tiny insect fists at Canon"....all of us users have been there at some point and can empathize I am sure.

 

[ScottyP]

I wish that someone who has actual experience using multiple Canon cameras (including the 6D) would explain what ...

'The 6D is a repackaged 5D2, which is a repackaged 20D w/ a FF sensor.'

... even means. It sounds like an assertion that Canon cameras haven't changed in 10+ years. And many seem to agree. What am I missing? And if this is the case, why is Canon equipment still in their bag?

This is not a personal attack on Canon's overall quality...just calling it like it is... 6D is a safe move up introducing some new features... it is an incremental move...not a revolutionary move by any means...that's what the comment made by me and others means...

I also said in a different thread that once the 6D price settles down from the initial high, it would be a good value and a competent camera in its own right.

I may be a Canon user, but I don't believe in mindlessly defending Canon at every turn where every single thing they do is the second coming that needs to be venerated and praised to high heavens. Sometimes what they do is just plain ordinary or market driven and that's ok too.

I use Canon because I like the overall platform. I call the 6D an incremental move because it is.

Geez. I'm all for not sparing Canon any well-deserved criticism, but "a repackaged 5D2 which is in turn a repackaged 20d, only with a FF"? You gloss over the swap from crop to FF pretty dismissively, and then you gloss over the gain of a stop or 2 of low-light performance between 5D2 and 6D (and I guess 3 or 4 stops between 20D and 6D) as if they were nothing. What, exactly would constutute a meaningful advance, assuming the end result will still look like a camera and do what a camera does? I suppose all these cameras are still black, and still have a shutter button, so there is nothing groundbreaking like, what, mounting 3 lenses at the same time, and maybe a tractor beam, or the ability to resurect one's ancestors?

 

[neuroanatomist]

6D is a safe move up introducing some new features... it is an incremental move...not a revolutionary move by any means...

Sometimes what they do is just plain ordinary or market driven and that's ok too.

Can you name a revolutionary move or two, by Canon or others, just for comparison? I think the last 'revolutionary' releases were the Contax N Digital and the 1Ds, the very first full frame CCD and CMOS dSLRs. Pretty much everything since then has been 'just plain ordinary' and 'market driven' incremental improvements. A few more MP. More AF points. More cross-type AF points. A couple more fps. More metering zones. Etc.

 

[RS2021]

I suppose all these cameras are still black, and still have a shutter button, so there is nothing groundbreaking like, what, mounting 3 lenses at the same time, and maybe a tractor beam, or the ability to ressurect one's ancestors?

Yes, and don't forget including hoods for each one of those three lenses

 

[awinphoto]

I know, seriously, canon is so overpriced... oh wait let me play with my new 100mm 2.8L Macro... sweet... i mean damn them for twisting my arm to buy an overpriced lens...

 

[RustyTheGeek]

OK, now this is more like it! Some fun posts! I particularly will be on the waiting list for the tractor beam feature!! Especially if it will track my eye movements and re-pose or levitate the subjects I choose! I think the tractor beam would be very handy in low light for stabilizing the moving subjects. Sort of like the next logical step in IS technology! (Not only does the new IS system dampen camera/lens movement for 4+ stops of exposure advantage, it also stops the subject for another 4 stops!!) This might be problematic in dance recitals, stock car races and pro sports where "IS Free" zones would need to be enforced. This would unfortunately free up people to use their cell phones since all the enforcement attention would be paid to watching for IS users!

Alright, I got that out of my system. Sorry for taking the thread off topic. But I didn't mention sharing software so hopefully I'll be alright....

 

[RLPhoto]

The 6D is a repackaged 5D2, which is a repackaged 20D w/ a FF sensor.

Save your dough and buy a used 5D2+glass or a 5D3.

I keep seeing this same post by RLPhoto in response to the 6D over and over. I consider RLPhoto a solid and talented photographer who consistently offers great advice here, no offense is intended by my comment but... his response to the 6D is out of character for him because it indicates an assumption opinion apparently based on specs that isn't backed up by first hand experience. And the repeated posting of it seems to indicate a desire to prevent others from making a mistake in purchasing the 6D.

I've shot about 4000+ images so far with the 6D I've owned for about a month. I also own the 5D3, 60D, 40D, 30D and original 5D. I've shot the 5D2 as well. The 5D3 and 6D are the first NIB bodies I've purchased. I normally purchase most of my equipment used. I agree that the current Canon prices are ridiculous. I purchased the 6D because I find the 5D3 low light performance and AF to be lacking. In another month or two I will likely sell either the 5D3 or the 6D. If Canon somehow magically fixes the 5D3 AF I would be inclined to possibly keep it but as things stand now, unless I do a lot of sports shooting (which I don't), the 6D will easily win this decision.

I can assure you that IMHO (based on actual use) the 6D is not a repackaged 5D2, 20D or whatever is being assumed. The 6D IQ is comparable to the 5D3 IQ and the 6D is superior to all other cameras in low light. The 6D simply works great as an entry level (or even mid level) FF camera. Everything I have read from actual 6D hands-on use and reviews is positive. My knee-jerk reaction to the 6D spec sheet several months ago was also negative. But I gave it a chance and I'm glad I did.

My only experience with the 6D is an hour in a camera store, (the camera exchange in SA), and I was not impressed because it felt exactly like the 5D2 but alittle nicer. I also realized using why it doesn't have a joystick because you will only be using the center point for accurate focusing. Set it and forget it. The outer points are
Ok If your at f/4 or so. Still a bit hit or miss.

Strange that the 5D2 is very similar in this main AF aspect. Even the t4i has all cross type AF points! What gives? If they have it the 7D AF system minimum, well I'd probably have one.

I'd rather buy a 5D2 + L lens than spend the cash on the 6D. This is my opinion, and that's my feelings on the camera. I apologize if I may of offended you rusty, but the 6D AF performed no better than my 5Dc or rebel XSI I've used years ago. Perhaps in super low light it will show its magic, but my 5Dc was also fantastic in low light w/ center point AF selected.

 

[jp121]

I too 'jumped' from the Rebel T2i (550D). But I bought the 5DM3 at full market price.

Price will (almost) always reflect current purchaser demand. Basic economics the price consumers will actually pay intersecting with how much the producer can actually (or are willing to) supply.

Canon & Nikon technology will always keep up with each other, as best they can, with strong consideration towards their core markets.

If you're not happy with their current line-up of product offerings (or the price you will pay), then obviously, you are do not fall into one of their current target markets. This will change over time as prices adjust to market forces.

If you are truly interested in photography. ie the actual photographs as a result of the camera person's skill and expression.

Then I suggest you list your photography goals and the technology that will best help you achieve those goals. Select the system that you feel will best assist you.

Remember cameras come and go. ie you are prepared to ditch you 550D and move on. The high price of lenses and accessories (spent over time) will force you to stick to either Canon or Nikon.

If it is the trophy object (camera, car etc) that gets your rocks off. Then does it truly matter which camera you actually purchase... Buy the one that says WOW to you and makes you walk that bit taller.

The only reason that I buy Canon was that when I was prepared to buy my first dslr, the 550D was the best in the market, at a price that I was willing to pay, at that specific moment in time. I am now invested into the Canon system. I choose not to know anything about any other Camera manufacturer, as I am not prepared to devalue what I have already spent.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

The 6D is a repackaged 5D2, which is a repackaged 20D w/ a FF sensor.

Save your dough and buy a used 5D2+glass or a 5D3.

I keep seeing this same post by RLPhoto in response to the 6D over and over. I consider RLPhoto a solid and talented photographer who consistently offers great advice here, no offense is intended by my comment but... his response to the 6D is out of character for him because it indicates an assumption opinion apparently based on specs that isn't backed up by first hand experience. And the repeated posting of it seems to indicate a desire to prevent others from making a mistake in purchasing the 6D.

I've shot about 4000+ images so far with the 6D I've owned for about a month. I also own the 5D3, 60D, 40D, 30D and original 5D. I've shot the 5D2 as well. The 5D3 and 6D are the first NIB bodies I've purchased. I normally purchase most of my equipment used. I agree that the current Canon prices are ridiculous. I purchased the 6D because I find the 5D3 low light performance and AF to be lacking. In another month or two I will likely sell either the 5D3 or the 6D. If Canon somehow magically fixes the 5D3 AF I would be inclined to possibly keep it but as things stand now, unless I do a lot of sports shooting (which I don't), the 6D will easily win this decision.

I can assure you that IMHO (based on actual use) the 6D is not a repackaged 5D2, 20D or whatever is being assumed. The 6D IQ is comparable to the 5D3 IQ and the 6D is superior to all other cameras in low light. The 6D simply works great as an entry level (or even mid level) FF camera. Everything I have read from actual 6D hands-on use and reviews is positive. My knee-jerk reaction to the 6D spec sheet several months ago was also negative. But I gave it a chance and I'm glad I did.

My only experience with the 6D is an hour in a camera store, (the camera exchange in SA), and I was not impressed because it felt exactly like the 5D2 but alittle nicer. I also realized using why it doesn't have a joystick because you will only be using the center point for accurate focusing. Set it and forget it. The outer points are
Ok If your at f/4 or so. Still a bit hit or miss.

Strange that the 5D2 is very similar in this main AF aspect. Even the t4i has all cross type AF points! What gives? If they have it the 7D AF system minimum, well I'd probably have one.

I'd rather buy a 5D2 + L lens than spend the cash on the 6D. This is my opinion, and that's my feelings on the camera. I apologize if I may of offended you rusty, but the 6D AF performed no better than my 5Dc or rebel XSI I've used years ago. Perhaps in super low light it will show its magic, but my 5Dc was also fantastic in low light w/ center point AF selected.

Thanks RLPhoto. Of course I'm not offended, just a bit confused. I tend to agree with most of your posts and I like your style. So for that reason, I have been a bit confounded by your thoughts on the 6D. Personally, I have never been able to learn much about a camera body in the store other than seeing how it feels in the hand and how the menus and controls work. Otherwise, I have to shoot some stuff in real world use to get an idea about whether I prefer the camera. I love the original 5Dc and I think the 6D is more similar in use to the 5Dc than the 5D3 is. The 5D3 is more complicated due to its AF features, etc.

IMO, as I use the 6D and the 5D3 side by side, I am starting to lean toward a similar thought as yours except I would rather own the 6D + L lens instead of paying the price of the 5D3. (Unless my primary use required the superior 5D3 AF in action shots.) The IQ of both cameras for normal photography is very close. And one of my favorite features is the Silent Shutter which is identical on both cameras.

 

[RS2021]

I call the 6D the "warmed up 5D2". Slightly microwaved in a BPA-free container Its not a knock on the Camera, when they sell it for $1299 in a year during Christmas, I promise to pick one up

 

[RustyTheGeek]

As I use both camera bodies, I agree that Canon is charging too much for the 6D but if that's true, it must also be true that they are charging WAY too much for the 5D3. Both bodies are overpriced. As I use both, I am finding that for my use, I am starting to prefer to be gouged less with the overpriced 6D than the 5D3.

 

[schnellergt]

I just registered to reply because I feel I can contribute something. I've been a member of Fredmiranda/POTN/DPreview for at least 6+ years and have been using Canon digital cameras for 10 years. A 5DII is currently in my bag. I would call myself a near-professional hobbyist

To be honest, I have been disappointed with Canon lately. I get the feeling they offer us the scraps from their table, at a slow pace (for the tech world), and they charge outrageously for this technology. I frankly think they are arrogant and don't listen to their customer base much at all. Whereas, I think Nikon does. Every product of Nkon's since the D700 has outclassed Canon in terms of features. For example, it was Nikon that started pushing dual memory card slots for entry- and mid-level cameras. Nikon has put considerably more pressure on Canon as of late and we Canon users should be thankful for this.

I also think that Sony (Nikon) sensors are superior to that of Canon in two key ways:
1. Analog-digital converter integrated directly into the sensor chip
2. 3D color matrix metering: exposure metering system, operating on data from a dedicated RGB sensor

Every kick sick of Canon's overblown red channel?

Anyway, all this talk about Nikon led me to rent a D600+ AFS 24-70 2.8G combo from LensRentals a few weeks back. Based on the 4-day experience, I came to the following conclusions:

Nikon Pros (D600 vs 5DII):
Dynamic Range
Metering
AF speed & accuracy
Size & Weight
Availability of some nice, new "value" primes like the AFS 85 1.8G that is superior to the Canon
The best UWA zoom in the business: AFS 12-24 2.8G

Nikon Cons:
Menu layout
Comfort in the hand / grip
Overall build quality, fit & finish (Camera bodies and lenses)
Many lenses not as good as Canon's: 24-70 2.8L II, 70-200 2.8L II IS, 85 1.2L II, etc.

In the end, I came away feeling that Nikon listens to its customers, wants more of them, is trying harder than Canon to get them, is making products that offer a better value in many respects, offers a product with a better sensor in terms of dynamic range and RGB metering, BUT (a big but) is trying to do all this at cut-throat speed and margins to the point that quality and customer service is suffering greatly. Whereas Canon charges a premium for products still mainly Made in Japan that represent a better long-term investment and will likely hold their value longer. Canon products are solid and if I were a field photographer, the choice would be easier in Canon's favor.

After my experiment with the D600, I came within a click or two of selling all my Canon equipment and switching, but I held back. I now read lots of dust/oil complaints with the D600 and this reinforces my impression of the camera's overall fit and finish.

My hope now is that either Nikon will come clean and do a recall, will release a "fixed" D600s, or Canon will fix its dynamic range and metering problems with the 5DIV and in the meantime I will continue to invest in good Canon glass.

 

[tphillips63]

I call the 6D the "warmed up 5D2". Slightly microwaved in a BPA-free container Its not a knock on the Camera, when they sell it for $1299 in a year during Christmas, I promise to pick one up

I'd probably have a take a good look at that deal too if it happens!

Regarding the 5D Mark II, with it being EOL, how does that affect peoples decision VS the 6D?