New lamp, what to buy?

[Viggo]

Hi all!

I sold my Elinchrom Quadra because it didn't do HSS, and I'm currently using two 600 RT speedlites.

I'm looking at GoDox and had a look at this link:

http://www.godox.com/EN/Products_Portabe_Flash_EX_Series.html

But seeing that the say 400Ws is the same as guide no. 52?? I'm not sure why I would buy if that is correct, the 600 RT is guide no. 60. I know that you can't really calculate and convert those two, but they have provided both values, but I can't find it to add up. Which one is it? My Quadra was 400Ws and I had at least 1 1/3 stop power advantage over the two speedlites.

What would you recommend for a 400-600Ws portable flash that does HSS and is cheap like the GoDox?

Thanks !

 

[RLPhoto]

I dont know but A PCB Einstein @ 640 W/s would take atleast 6+ Speelites to get kinda close to the full power output. It would be the same with these if they are measures the same.

 

[IMG_0001]

The speedlite is GN60m zoomed at 200mm while the Godox flash head is GN52m for a wide angle reflector (haven't seen how wide and that is not standardizied as far as I know) . In a similarly wide angle, the 600 probably gives under GN20m as the light intensity reduce in proportion of the illuminated surface, or to the square of the edge lenght of the illuminated area. (Inverse square law).

 

[Viggo]

I dont know but A PCB Einstein @ 640 W/s would take atleast 6+ Speelites to get kinda close to the full power output. It would be the same with these if they are measures the same.

Thanks for the tip, but I can't buy Einstein, it's not sold here and I can't import due to importing rules, think it's about the lithium battery, and I think thy used to be only 120V , not 240V.

 

[Viggo]

The speedlite is GN60m zoomed at 200mm while the Godox flash head is GN52m for a wide angle reflector (haven't seen how wide and that is not standardizied as far as I know) . In a similarly wide angle, the 600 probably gives under GN20m as the light intensity reduce in proportion of the illuminated surface, or to the square of the edge lenght of the illuminated area. (Inverse square law).

Thanks, that makes more sense, but still, I was thinking I would not use a reflector at all inside a soft box. It's almost impossible to figure out the output without trying both speedlites and another lamp inn the same box and measure the f-stop with a light meter at a given distance it seems. I don't want to buy a flash that's barely more powerful and the two 600 RT's I already own

 

[privatebydesign]

I dont know but A PCB Einstein @ 640 W/s would take atleast 6+ Speelites to get kinda close to the full power output. It would be the same with these if they are measures the same.

Thanks for the tip, but I can't buy Einstein, it's not sold here and I can't import due to importing rules, think it's about the lithium battery, and I think thy used to be only 120V , not 240V.

Not suggesting that you do buy an Einstein, though I recently got two and they are very good. But for the sake of accuracy, the Einstein doesn't have a battery in it and is allowed to be shipped anywhere worldwide with no restrictions (not saying there are not import regulations unrelated to batteries), also they run on any voltage from 95-250VAC 50-60Hz automatically, effectively you can plug them in anywhere in the world and they just work.

But international shipping is a pain and for service or warranty they have to go back to Tennessee and the Einstein also doesn't do HSS.


As for the power output, as IMG_0001 said, the small flash GN only covers a very small area, the Godox has a much wider spread so actually puts out much more light. It is very difficult to compare flash power on specs, even when you use the same figure to do it. For instance if you compare a 1200WS Profoto to an older 2400WS Profoto in the same modifier the 1200 actually gives you one stop deeper dof because it is so much more efficient, WS refers to potential energy.

There is no accurate way of comparing flash output, there is no standard, without firing them next to each other in the same modifier. But the Godox will give you much more light output than the 600-EX-RT.

Addendum: The Godox is rated at GN 52 with a circular beam spread of 65º, the 600-EX-RT is rated at GN60 with a rectangular beam pattern of a 200mm lens, or 12º. This means the area the Godox covers is around eight times bigger. In practice I'd expect the Godox to put out a couple of stops more power than both your 600's together.

 

[Viggo]

I dont know but A PCB Einstein @ 640 W/s would take atleast 6+ Speelites to get kinda close to the full power output. It would be the same with these if they are measures the same.

Thanks for the tip, but I can't buy Einstein, it's not sold here and I can't import due to importing rules, think it's about the lithium battery, and I think thy used to be only 120V , not 240V.

Not suggesting that you do buy an Einstein, though I recently got two and they are very good. But for the sake of accuracy, the Einstein doesn't have a battery in it and is allowed to be shipped anywhere worldwide with no restrictions (not saying there are not import regulations unrelated to batteries), also they run on any voltage from 95-250VAC 50-60Hz automatically, effectively you can plug them in anywhere in the world and they just work.

But international shipping is a pain and for service or warranty they have to go back to Tennessee.

As for the power output, as IMG_0001 said, the small flash GN only covers a very small area, the Godox has a much wider spread so actually puts out much more light. It is very difficult to compare flash power on specs, even when you use the same figure to do it. For instance if you compare a 1200WS Profoto to an older 2400WS Profoto in the same modifier the 1200 actually gives you one stop deeper dof because it is so much more efficient, WS refers to potential energy.

There is no accurate way of comparing flash output, there is no standard, without firing them next to each other in the same modifier. But the Godox will give you much more light output than the 600-EX-RT.

Thanks for he detailed info, great stuff. And I should've known, because it's just to compare my deep octa 70 cm to a cheap 70 cm octa off of eBay I have, the deep octa is MUCH better to reflect the light out of the octa.

Such a shame the Acute 600 doesn't do HSS, lol..

 

[privatebydesign]

I dont know but A PCB Einstein @ 640 W/s would take atleast 6+ Speelites to get kinda close to the full power output. It would be the same with these if they are measures the same.

Thanks for the tip, but I can't buy Einstein, it's not sold here and I can't import due to importing rules, think it's about the lithium battery, and I think thy used to be only 120V , not 240V.

Not suggesting that you do buy an Einstein, though I recently got two and they are very good. But for the sake of accuracy, the Einstein doesn't have a battery in it and is allowed to be shipped anywhere worldwide with no restrictions (not saying there are not import regulations unrelated to batteries), also they run on any voltage from 95-250VAC 50-60Hz automatically, effectively you can plug them in anywhere in the world and they just work.

But international shipping is a pain and for service or warranty they have to go back to Tennessee.

As for the power output, as IMG_0001 said, the small flash GN only covers a very small area, the Godox has a much wider spread so actually puts out much more light. It is very difficult to compare flash power on specs, even when you use the same figure to do it. For instance if you compare a 1200WS Profoto to an older 2400WS Profoto in the same modifier the 1200 actually gives you one stop deeper dof because it is so much more efficient, WS refers to potential energy.

There is no accurate way of comparing flash output, there is no standard, without firing them next to each other in the same modifier. But the Godox will give you much more light output than the 600-EX-RT.

Thanks for he detailed info, great stuff. And I should've known, because it's just to compare my deep octa 70 cm to a cheap 70 cm octa off of eBay I have, the deep octa is MUCH better to reflect the light out of the octa.

Such a shame the Acute 600 doesn't do HSS, lol..

Hi Viggo, I added a bit to my earlier post that you might have missed that related to the printed specs on the Godox and its spread pattern.

Addendum: The Godox is rated at GN 52 with a circular beam spread of 65º, the 600-EX-RT is rated at GN60 with a rectangular beam pattern of a 200mm lens, or 12º. This means the area the Godox covers is around eight times bigger. In practice I'd expect the Godox to put out a couple of stops more power than both your 600's together.

 

[mackguyver]

Viggo, I also have a pair of Einsteins and they are excellent, but I understand the import issues & costs. I wanted to ask you about your need for HSS. A few weeks ago I spent a good deal of time reading Paul Buff's thoughts on the use of HSS and why he will never implement the feature into his Einstein or other lights. Essentially he feels that the power reduction and sync issues aren't worth it and you're better off adding more power to get to your camera's x-sync speed instead. I can see both sides of the issue, but he had a lot of compelling arguments. I can point you to some of the posts on his forum if you're interested.

 

[YuengLinger]

Mac I also like my Einsteins very much; could you please post those links? Thank you.

 

[PhilippP74]

Did any of you guys have a look into PocketWizard's Hypersync?

As far as I understood this it's a "intelligent/optimized" trigger mechanism for normal studio strobes to allow exposures faster than the normal sync speed (1/500 to 1/8000 range). Here's a background video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Qh3wN-Ggk) and one of the kelby courses where Dave Black used both HSS and Hypersync in different sections (http://kelbyone.com/course/dblack_3way/). While in theory this "we time the flash so that itself and the afterglow illuminate the slice between 1st and 2nd curtain for the complete picture" sounds good it would be nice to hear some hands-on experience from you guys.

 

[privatebydesign]

Viggo, I also have a pair of Einsteins and they are excellent, but I understand the import issues & costs. I wanted to ask you about your need for HSS. A few weeks ago I spent a good deal of time reading Paul Buff's thoughts on the use of HSS and why he will never implement the feature into his Einstein or other lights. Essentially he feels that the power reduction and sync issues aren't worth it and you're better off adding more power to get to your camera's x-sync speed instead. I can see both sides of the issue, but he had a lot of compelling arguments. I can point you to some of the posts on his forum if you're interested.

I think one of the key points for HSS is the ability to select very narrow dof without resorting to variable PL filters which hurts focus etc. And that is Viggo's style, fast primes wide open.

I think Paul is being a little economical, PCB are happy to boast, very loudly, about the flash duration speed which is as dependent on low power settings as HSS is inefficient. There is no doubt there is a demand and interest in HSS for studio lights, and IGBT is the way to do it.

 

[mackguyver]

Mac I also like my Einsteins very much; could you please post those links? Thank you.

Sure, here are a few, but I'll have to dig deeper for more of them. Also, I forgot his ultimate solution, a return to a truly electronic shutter like the Nikon D40 had - see the final thread here. Also keep in mind that Paul posts under the reverse name "Luap":

Sync Speed, High Speed Sync, and HyperSync™

Sync Speed and CyberSyncs

New Einsteins, Cyber Commander + 5D Mk III can't shoot HSS?!

CyberSync achieves 1/2500 Second Sync!

Viggo, I also have a pair of Einsteins and they are excellent, but I understand the import issues & costs. I wanted to ask you about your need for HSS. A few weeks ago I spent a good deal of time reading Paul Buff's thoughts on the use of HSS and why he will never implement the feature into his Einstein or other lights. Essentially he feels that the power reduction and sync issues aren't worth it and you're better off adding more power to get to your camera's x-sync speed instead. I can see both sides of the issue, but he had a lot of compelling arguments. I can point you to some of the posts on his forum if you're interested.

I think one of the key points for HSS is the ability to select very narrow dof without resorting to variable PL filters which hurts focus etc. And that is Viggo's style, fast primes wide open.

I think Paul is being a little economical, PCB are happy to boast, very loudly, about the flash duration speed which is as dependent on low power settings as HSS is inefficient. There is no doubt there is a demand and interest in HSS for studio lights, and IGBT is the way to do it.

I agree, and you've probably noticed that there is more than just a little excitement about the new firmware for the Profoto B1 that allows HSS with the high-end Canon models...so obviously there is a need/market out there.

On the subject of variable ND filters, I didn't like my time with them, and decided to keep using plain NDs that work out much better.

 

[privatebydesign]

Viggo, I also have a pair of Einsteins and they are excellent, but I understand the import issues & costs. I wanted to ask you about your need for HSS. A few weeks ago I spent a good deal of time reading Paul Buff's thoughts on the use of HSS and why he will never implement the feature into his Einstein or other lights. Essentially he feels that the power reduction and sync issues aren't worth it and you're better off adding more power to get to your camera's x-sync speed instead. I can see both sides of the issue, but he had a lot of compelling arguments. I can point you to some of the posts on his forum if you're interested.

I think one of the key points for HSS is the ability to select very narrow dof without resorting to variable PL filters which hurts focus etc. And that is Viggo's style, fast primes wide open.

I think Paul is being a little economical, PCB are happy to boast, very loudly, about the flash duration speed which is as dependent on low power settings as HSS is inefficient. There is no doubt there is a demand and interest in HSS for studio lights, and IGBT is the way to do it.

I agree, and you've probably noticed that there is more than just a little excitement about the new firmware for the Profoto B1 that allows HSS with the high-end Canon models...so obviously there is a need/market out there.

On the subject of variable ND filters, I didn't like my time with them, and decided to keep using plain NDs that work out much better.

Yes the B1's are on my RADAR, though I recently got a crazy god deal on a two Einstein setup. I have some money set aside for a 1Ds MkIII upgrade, but nothing to spend it on, I thought the B1's were going to get it!

 

[IMG_0001]

I dont know but A PCB Einstein @ 640 W/s would take atleast 6+ Speelites to get kinda close to the full power output. It would be the same with these if they are measures the same.

Thanks for the tip, but I can't buy Einstein, it's not sold here and I can't import due to importing rules, think it's about the lithium battery, and I think thy used to be only 120V , not 240V.

Not suggesting that you do buy an Einstein, though I recently got two and they are very good. But for the sake of accuracy, the Einstein doesn't have a battery in it and is allowed to be shipped anywhere worldwide with no restrictions (not saying there are not import regulations unrelated to batteries), also they run on any voltage from 95-250VAC 50-60Hz automatically, effectively you can plug them in anywhere in the world and they just work.

But international shipping is a pain and for service or warranty they have to go back to Tennessee and the Einstein also doesn't do HSS.


As for the power output, as IMG_0001 said, the small flash GN only covers a very small area, the Godox has a much wider spread so actually puts out much more light. It is very difficult to compare flash power on specs, even when you use the same figure to do it. For instance if you compare a 1200WS Profoto to an older 2400WS Profoto in the same modifier the 1200 actually gives you one stop deeper dof because it is so much more efficient, WS refers to potential energy.

There is no accurate way of comparing flash output, there is no standard, without firing them next to each other in the same modifier. But the Godox will give you much more light output than the 600-EX-RT.

Addendum: The Godox is rated at GN 52 with a circular beam spread of 65º, the 600-EX-RT is rated at GN60 with a rectangular beam pattern of a 200mm lens, or 12º. This means the area the Godox covers is around eight times bigger. In practice I'd expect the Godox to put out a couple of stops more power than both your 600's together.

Bearing in mind that 65 degrees is around 35 mm focal length and that Canon's 600EX-RT manual states GN36m at 35mm and ISO 100 and 1/1 power. Then, given Godox GN is 52m:

52/36=1.44 times the distance for the correct exposure and given the the inverse square law,:

1.44^2 = 2.

The Godox flash is then pretty much 2 stops more powerful than the Canon. So Private was pretty right.

And I think it is also good to remember that 1 more stop than a 600RT requires two 600EX-RT,
+2 stops = 4 flashes;
+3 stop = 8 flashes and so on.

Therefore a pair of those Godox flashes would be +3 stops and be roughly equivalent to 8 Canon 600EX-RT.

And then comes battery life, overheating possibilities, recycle times and so on...

 

[Viggo]

Viggo, I also have a pair of Einsteins and they are excellent, but I understand the import issues & costs. I wanted to ask you about your need for HSS. A few weeks ago I spent a good deal of time reading Paul Buff's thoughts on the use of HSS and why he will never implement the feature into his Einstein or other lights. Essentially he feels that the power reduction and sync issues aren't worth it and you're better off adding more power to get to your camera's x-sync speed instead. I can see both sides of the issue, but he had a lot of compelling arguments. I can point you to some of the posts on his forum if you're interested.

I think one of the key points for HSS is the ability to select very narrow dof without resorting to variable PL filters which hurts focus etc. And that is Viggo's style, fast primes wide open.

I think Paul is being a little economical, PCB are happy to boast, very loudly, about the flash duration speed which is as dependent on low power settings as HSS is inefficient. There is no doubt there is a demand and interest in HSS for studio lights, and IGBT is the way to do it.

Indeed, I don't want to mess around with pitch black filters, much more fun to simply set the exposure I want for background and the dof (VERY rarely narrower than 1.4) and just shoot. I found that the power lost in HSS is so worth it to able to use HSS. But that will make the speedlites lack power in daylight, and is why I want something like the Quadra, but with HSS.

Hmm, I had completely forgotten about the B1....

 

[Viggo]

I dont know but A PCB Einstein @ 640 W/s would take atleast 6+ Speelites to get kinda close to the full power output. It would be the same with these if they are measures the same.

Thanks for the tip, but I can't buy Einstein, it's not sold here and I can't import due to importing rules, think it's about the lithium battery, and I think thy used to be only 120V , not 240V.

Not suggesting that you do buy an Einstein, though I recently got two and they are very good. But for the sake of accuracy, the Einstein doesn't have a battery in it and is allowed to be shipped anywhere worldwide with no restrictions (not saying there are not import regulations unrelated to batteries), also they run on any voltage from 95-250VAC 50-60Hz automatically, effectively you can plug them in anywhere in the world and they just work.

But international shipping is a pain and for service or warranty they have to go back to Tennessee and the Einstein also doesn't do HSS.


As for the power output, as IMG_0001 said, the small flash GN only covers a very small area, the Godox has a much wider spread so actually puts out much more light. It is very difficult to compare flash power on specs, even when you use the same figure to do it. For instance if you compare a 1200WS Profoto to an older 2400WS Profoto in the same modifier the 1200 actually gives you one stop deeper dof because it is so much more efficient, WS refers to potential energy.

There is no accurate way of comparing flash output, there is no standard, without firing them next to each other in the same modifier. But the Godox will give you much more light output than the 600-EX-RT.

Addendum: The Godox is rated at GN 52 with a circular beam spread of 65º, the 600-EX-RT is rated at GN60 with a rectangular beam pattern of a 200mm lens, or 12º. This means the area the Godox covers is around eight times bigger. In practice I'd expect the Godox to put out a couple of stops more power than both your 600's together.

Bearing in mind that 65 degrees is around 35 mm focal length and that Canon's 600EX-RT manual states GN36m at 35mm and ISO 100 and 1/1 power. Then, given Godox GN is 52m:

52/36=1.44 times the distance for the correct exposure and given the the inverse square law,:

1.44^2 = 2.

The Godox flash is then pretty much 2 stops more powerful than the Canon. So Private was pretty right.

And I think it is also good to remember that 1 more stop than a 600RT requires two 600EX-RT,
+2 stops = 4 flashes;
+3 stop = 8 flashes and so on.

Therefore a pair of those Godox flashes would be +3 stops and be roughly equivalent to 8 Canon 600EX-RT.

And then comes battery life, overheating possibilities, recycle times and so on...

Thanks again. It starting to look like getting the Godox for sure. I know that for each stop I need twice as many speedlites, that's why I have two, and only two. After that it starts to become expensive and loooots of batteries.

 

[IMG_0001]

I dont know but A PCB Einstein @ 640 W/s would take atleast 6+ Speelites to get kinda close to the full power output. It would be the same with these if they are measures the same.

Thanks for the tip, but I can't buy Einstein, it's not sold here and I can't import due to importing rules, think it's about the lithium battery, and I think thy used to be only 120V , not 240V.

Not suggesting that you do buy an Einstein, though I recently got two and they are very good. But for the sake of accuracy, the Einstein doesn't have a battery in it and is allowed to be shipped anywhere worldwide with no restrictions (not saying there are not import regulations unrelated to batteries), also they run on any voltage from 95-250VAC 50-60Hz automatically, effectively you can plug them in anywhere in the world and they just work.

But international shipping is a pain and for service or warranty they have to go back to Tennessee and the Einstein also doesn't do HSS.


As for the power output, as IMG_0001 said, the small flash GN only covers a very small area, the Godox has a much wider spread so actually puts out much more light. It is very difficult to compare flash power on specs, even when you use the same figure to do it. For instance if you compare a 1200WS Profoto to an older 2400WS Profoto in the same modifier the 1200 actually gives you one stop deeper dof because it is so much more efficient, WS refers to potential energy.

There is no accurate way of comparing flash output, there is no standard, without firing them next to each other in the same modifier. But the Godox will give you much more light output than the 600-EX-RT.

Addendum: The Godox is rated at GN 52 with a circular beam spread of 65º, the 600-EX-RT is rated at GN60 with a rectangular beam pattern of a 200mm lens, or 12º. This means the area the Godox covers is around eight times bigger. In practice I'd expect the Godox to put out a couple of stops more power than both your 600's together.

Bearing in mind that 65 degrees is around 35 mm focal length and that Canon's 600EX-RT manual states GN36m at 35mm and ISO 100 and 1/1 power. Then, given Godox GN is 52m:

52/36=1.44 times the distance for the correct exposure and given the the inverse square law,:

1.44^2 = 2.

The Godox flash is then pretty much 2 stops more powerful than the Canon. So Private was pretty right.

And I think it is also good to remember that 1 more stop than a 600RT requires two 600EX-RT,
+2 stops = 4 flashes;
+3 stop = 8 flashes and so on.

Therefore a pair of those Godox flashes would be +3 stops and be roughly equivalent to 8 Canon 600EX-RT.

And then comes battery life, overheating possibilities, recycle times and so on...

Thanks again. It starting to look like getting the Godox for sure. I know that for each stop I need twice as many speedlites, that's why I have two, and only two. After that it starts to become expensive and loooots of batteries.

If you do so, keep us informed of how you like them. I was interested in some of the Godox products for a small home studio, but I am yet to decide if I trust the brand enough to hand them my precious beans. Still, some of their products like the bare bulb speedlight and the lithium battried speedlight appear to be relatively well perceived and the prices are very attractive.

 

[Viggo]

I dont know but A PCB Einstein @ 640 W/s would take atleast 6+ Speelites to get kinda close to the full power output. It would be the same with these if they are measures the same.

Thanks for the tip, but I can't buy Einstein, it's not sold here and I can't import due to importing rules, think it's about the lithium battery, and I think thy used to be only 120V , not 240V.

Not suggesting that you do buy an Einstein, though I recently got two and they are very good. But for the sake of accuracy, the Einstein doesn't have a battery in it and is allowed to be shipped anywhere worldwide with no restrictions (not saying there are not import regulations unrelated to batteries), also they run on any voltage from 95-250VAC 50-60Hz automatically, effectively you can plug them in anywhere in the world and they just work.

But international shipping is a pain and for service or warranty they have to go back to Tennessee and the Einstein also doesn't do HSS.


As for the power output, as IMG_0001 said, the small flash GN only covers a very small area, the Godox has a much wider spread so actually puts out much more light. It is very difficult to compare flash power on specs, even when you use the same figure to do it. For instance if you compare a 1200WS Profoto to an older 2400WS Profoto in the same modifier the 1200 actually gives you one stop deeper dof because it is so much more efficient, WS refers to potential energy.

There is no accurate way of comparing flash output, there is no standard, without firing them next to each other in the same modifier. But the Godox will give you much more light output than the 600-EX-RT.

Addendum: The Godox is rated at GN 52 with a circular beam spread of 65º, the 600-EX-RT is rated at GN60 with a rectangular beam pattern of a 200mm lens, or 12º. This means the area the Godox covers is around eight times bigger. In practice I'd expect the Godox to put out a couple of stops more power than both your 600's together.

Bearing in mind that 65 degrees is around 35 mm focal length and that Canon's 600EX-RT manual states GN36m at 35mm and ISO 100 and 1/1 power. Then, given Godox GN is 52m:

52/36=1.44 times the distance for the correct exposure and given the the inverse square law,:

1.44^2 = 2.

The Godox flash is then pretty much 2 stops more powerful than the Canon. So Private was pretty right.

And I think it is also good to remember that 1 more stop than a 600RT requires two 600EX-RT,
+2 stops = 4 flashes;
+3 stop = 8 flashes and so on.

Therefore a pair of those Godox flashes would be +3 stops and be roughly equivalent to 8 Canon 600EX-RT.

And then comes battery life, overheating possibilities, recycle times and so on...

Thanks again. It starting to look like getting the Godox for sure. I know that for each stop I need twice as many speedlites, that's why I have two, and only two. After that it starts to become expensive and loooots of batteries.

If you do so, keep us informed of how you like them. I was interested in some of the Godox products for a small home studio, but I am yet to decide if I trust the brand enough to hand them my precious beans. Still, some of their products like the bare bulb speedlight and the lithium battried speedlight appear to be relatively well perceived and the prices are very attractive.

I already have a PB820 batterypack for my speedlites and they have seen some abuse, but work as new, and it turns out I can use that pack on the 360 as well, neat stuff.

Only thing is, I saw a transmitter and receiver that allowed me to adjust power remotley, however it did not support HSS. Looks like I have to have one remote in my pocket to adjust power and another to transmitt from camera to both control power and have HSS, it seems like a pita, but hey, they're cheap.