New Sensor Tech in EOS 7D Mark II [CR2]

[Flailingarms]

jrista and neuroanatomist: You are wasting your time replying to ... well, you know ... seems to me ... well, you know who ... is just flapping his mouth ... er, keyboard ... to hear the rattling in his skull. He may be getting some sort of ego-trip satisfaction therefrom, but I opine he is the only one. There is an old saying: "You can't have a battle of wits with someone who comes to the conflict unarmed."

 

[x-vision]

... to hear the rattling in his skull.

You haven't read a single thing that I wrote, you bottom feeder.
But crawled out from under your rock to share some personal insults.
What a friendly little fella.

 

[Orangutan]

jrista and neuroanatomist: You are wasting your time replying to ... well, you know ... seems to me ... well, you know who ... is just flapping his mouth ... er, keyboard ... to hear the rattling in his skull. He may be getting some sort of ego-trip satisfaction therefrom, but I opine he is the only one. There is an old saying: "You can't have a battle of wits with someone who comes to the conflict unarmed."

That's the sad part: he's not entirely stupid, he might even have some useful brainpower. The problem is that to be more knowledgeable than he is today, he needs to be quick to admit when he's wrong. The kid (I assume it's a younger person) might be able to make something of himself if he'd dial-down the testosterone and realize that an empty/false "victory" is less important than learning. Well, either he'll grow up or he won't.

 

[x-vision]

That's the sad part ...

I somehow get the impression that this jrista guy is some kind of royalty around here.
Why is every one kissing his @ss when he's so misguided on multiple accounts ??
Am I missing something? That's really rubbing me the wrong way.

And yes, I did admit that I was wrong for the thing that I was wrong about.
Let's see if this guy jrista will do the same for the things that he's wrong about.

 

[Orangutan]

That's the sad part ...

I somehow get the impression that this jrista guy is some kind of royalty around here.
Why is every one kissing his @ss when he's so misguided on multiple accounts ??
Am I missing something? That's really rubbing me the wrong way.

And yes, I did admit that I was wrong for the thing that I was wrong about.
Let's see if this guy jrista will do the same for the things that he's wrong about.

jrista is not "royalty." He's a very knowledgeable guy who has, in the past, readily admitted when he was wrong. He has a history of being generous with his time and experience, and arguing fairly. This has earned him a measure of respect, but I doubt anyone would cite him as an infallible authority, least of all himself.

My take-away is this: given jrista's history of arguing fairly, if you threw your best at him and he disagreed, then the burden is on you to be more persuasive. That's not to say that you're wrong, but that you've been unpersuasive. So why don't you try this: start all over with your thought-experiment. Be more precise about your definitions, and even try to dodge irrelevant definitions when they get in the way of the discussion. Lay out your speculation in language that's not contested, citing supporting evidence where you can find it. Then see what response you get.

By the way, there are several working EE's on this forum. My guess is that if jrista were way off the mark one of them would have corrected him (and it could still happen).

 

[x-vision]

Thanks for the thoughtful and respectful answer.

 

[jrista]

And back to our regularly scheduled programming.

The 7D II's new technology. What will it be? Here are my thoughts, given past Canon announcements, hints about what the 7D II will be, interviews with Canon uppers, etc.

1. Megapixels: 20-24mp
2. Focal-plane AF: Probably DPAF, with the enhancements in the patents Canon was granted at the end of 2013. *
3. New fab process: Probably 180nm, maybe on 300mm wafers. **
4. A new dedicated AF system: I don't know if it will get the 61pt AF, probably too large for the APS-C frame. A smaller version...41pts would be my hope. Same precision & accuracy of 61pt system on 5D III, with same general firmware features.
5. Increased Q.E.: Canon has been stuck below 50% Q.E. for a long time now. Their competitors have pushed up to 56% and beyond, a couple have sensors with 60% Q.E. at room temperature. Higher Q.E. should serve high ISO very well.
6. Faster frame rate: I suspect 10fps. I don't think it will be faster than that, 12fps is the reserved territory of the 1D line.
7. Dual cards: CF (CFast2) + SD. I hate that, personally, but I really don't see the 7D line getting dual CF cards. (I'll HAPPILY be proven wrong here, though!)
8. No integrated battery grip. Just doesn't make sense, the 7D was kind of a smaller, lighter, more agile alternative to the 1D, a grip totally kills that.
9. New 1DX/5DIII menu system. Personally, I would very much welcome this! LOVE the menu system of the 5D III.
10. GPI and WiFi: I think both should find their way into the 7D II, what with the 6D having them. Honestly not certain, though...guess it's a tossup.
11. Video features: Video has always been core to the 7D II rumors. 60fps 1080p; 120fps 720p (?); HDMI RAW output; External mic jack; 4:2:2; I think DIGIC 7 would probably arrive with enhancements on the DIGIC 6 image and video processing features. Maybe on par with Sony's Bionz X chip.

* Namely, split photodiodes, but with different sizes...one half is a high sensitivity half, the other half is a lower sensitivity half. The patents are in Japanese, and the translations are horrible, so I am not sure exactly WHY this is good, but Canon's R&D guys seem to think it will not only improve AF performance and speed, but "reduce the negative impact to IQ"....which seems to indicate that the use of dual photodiodes has some kind of impact on IQ, a negative impact.

** We know Canon has been using a 180nm process for their smaller form factor sensors for a while. Not long ago, a rumor came through, I think here on CR, indicating Canon was building a new fab and would be moving to 300mm wafers. That should greatly help Canon's ability to fabricate large sensors with complex pixels for a lot cheaper. A smaller process would increase the usable area for photodiodes, as transistors and wiring would be a lot smaller than they are today on Canon's 500nm process. That would be a big benefit for smaller-pixel sensors. If they moved to a 90nm process, all the better. I don't suspect we'll see any kind of BSI in the 7D II...but, who knows.

 

[Orangutan]

And back to our regularly scheduled programming.

The 7D II's new technology. What will it be? Here are my thoughts, given past Canon announcements, hints about what the 7D II will be, interviews with Canon uppers, etc.

1. Megapixels: 20-24mp
2. Focal-plane AF: Probably DPAF, with the enhancements in the patents Canon was granted at the end of 2013. *
3. New fab process: Probably 180nm, maybe on 300mm wafers. **
4. A new dedicated AF system: I don't know if it will get the 61pt AF, probably too large for the APS-C frame. A smaller version...41pts would be my hope. Same precision & accuracy of 61pt system on 5D III, with same general firmware features.
5. Increased Q.E.: Canon has been stuck below 50% Q.E. for a long time now. Their competitors have pushed up to 56% and beyond, a couple have sensors with 60% Q.E. at room temperature. Higher Q.E. should serve high ISO very well.
6. Faster frame rate: I suspect 10fps. I don't think it will be faster than that, 12fps is the reserved territory of the 1D line.
7. Dual cards: CF (CFast2) + SD. I hate that, personally, but I really don't see the 7D line getting dual CF cards. (I'll HAPPILY be proven wrong here, though!)
8. No integrated battery grip. Just doesn't make sense, the 7D was kind of a smaller, lighter, more agile alternative to the 1D, a grip totally kills that.
9. New 1DX/5DIII menu system. Personally, I would very much welcome this! LOVE the menu system of the 5D III.
10. GPI and WiFi: I think both should find their way into the 7D II, what with the 6D having them. Honestly not certain, though...guess it's a tossup.
11. Video features: Video has always been core to the 7D II rumors. 60fps 1080p; 120fps 720p (?); HDMI RAW output; External mic jack; 4:2:2; I think DIGIC 7 would probably arrive with enhancements on the DIGIC 6 image and video processing features. Maybe on par with Sony's Bionz X chip.

* Namely, split photodiodes, but with different sizes...one half is a high sensitivity half, the other half is a lower sensitivity half. The patents are in Japanese, and the translations are horrible, so I am not sure exactly WHY this is good, but Canon's R&D guys seem to think it will not only improve AF performance and speed, but "reduce the negative impact to IQ"....which seems to indicate that the use of dual photodiodes has some kind of impact on IQ, a negative impact.

** We know Canon has been using a 180nm process for their smaller form factor sensors for a while. Not long ago, a rumor came through, I think here on CR, indicating Canon was building a new fab and would be moving to 300mm wafers. That should greatly help Canon's ability to fabricate large sensors with complex pixels for a lot cheaper. A smaller process would increase the usable area for photodiodes, as transistors and wiring would be a lot smaller than they are today on Canon's 500nm process. That would be a big benefit for smaller-pixel sensors. If they moved to a 90nm process, all the better. I don't suspect we'll see any kind of BSI in the 7D II...but, who knows.

If they sell that camera at a reasonable price I can see myself buying one (4-6 months after release, when the price drops)

 

[Marauder]

And back to our regularly scheduled programming.

The 7D II's new technology. What will it be? Here are my thoughts, given past Canon announcements, hints about what the 7D II will be, interviews with Canon uppers, etc.

1. Megapixels: 20-24mp
2. Focal-plane AF: Probably DPAF, with the enhancements in the patents Canon was granted at the end of 2013. *
3. New fab process: Probably 180nm, maybe on 300mm wafers. **
4. A new dedicated AF system: I don't know if it will get the 61pt AF, probably too large for the APS-C frame. A smaller version...41pts would be my hope. Same precision & accuracy of 61pt system on 5D III, with same general firmware features.
5. Increased Q.E.: Canon has been stuck below 50% Q.E. for a long time now. Their competitors have pushed up to 56% and beyond, a couple have sensors with 60% Q.E. at room temperature. Higher Q.E. should serve high ISO very well.
6. Faster frame rate: I suspect 10fps. I don't think it will be faster than that, 12fps is the reserved territory of the 1D line.
7. Dual cards: CF (CFast2) + SD. I hate that, personally, but I really don't see the 7D line getting dual CF cards. (I'll HAPPILY be proven wrong here, though!)
8. No integrated battery grip. Just doesn't make sense, the 7D was kind of a smaller, lighter, more agile alternative to the 1D, a grip totally kills that.
9. New 1DX/5DIII menu system. Personally, I would very much welcome this! LOVE the menu system of the 5D III.
10. GPI and WiFi: I think both should find their way into the 7D II, what with the 6D having them. Honestly not certain, though...guess it's a tossup.
11. Video features: Video has always been core to the 7D II rumors. 60fps 1080p; 120fps 720p (?); HDMI RAW output; External mic jack; 4:2:2; I think DIGIC 7 would probably arrive with enhancements on the DIGIC 6 image and video processing features. Maybe on par with Sony's Bionz X chip.

* Namely, split photodiodes, but with different sizes...one half is a high sensitivity half, the other half is a lower sensitivity half. The patents are in Japanese, and the translations are horrible, so I am not sure exactly WHY this is good, but Canon's R&D guys seem to think it will not only improve AF performance and speed, but "reduce the negative impact to IQ"....which seems to indicate that the use of dual photodiodes has some kind of impact on IQ, a negative impact.

** We know Canon has been using a 180nm process for their smaller form factor sensors for a while. Not long ago, a rumor came through, I think here on CR, indicating Canon was building a new fab and would be moving to 300mm wafers. That should greatly help Canon's ability to fabricate large sensors with complex pixels for a lot cheaper. A smaller process would increase the usable area for photodiodes, as transistors and wiring would be a lot smaller than they are today on Canon's 500nm process. That would be a big benefit for smaller-pixel sensors. If they moved to a 90nm process, all the better. I don't suspect we'll see any kind of BSI in the 7D II...but, who knows.

41 AF points would be excellent, especially if they were all cross-type! Still, Nikon has crammed 51 into its cropped frame, so it might be possible for Canon to put 61 into a crop frame. Based on what I've read (and the little on the few minutes I actually handled a 1DX at a camera show), the 61 point systems on the 1DX/5D3 are quite concentrated in the centre. Is it possible for Canon to adapt a 61 point system for the 7D2 that fills more of the frame, given that it's a crop? Would that be a possible adaptation of the existing Full Frame AF to a Crop Frame analogue--same density over a "larger" area of the frame given the tighter field of view?

As to the frame rate, the initial specs all said 10 fps. When they suddenly began to suggest it might be 12, I was rather surprised, but I'd be pleased if it were true--but 10 will be awesome too (it definitely needs to outperform the 8 fps of the current model!). I suppose it depends on what they think Nikon will do, and also what the next 1D series will do. I also think it will probably be 10, but 12 would give it more time on top of the competition and they might just want to overshoot in order to make this a standard for crop-frames for the next several years.

Either way, I'm excited!

 

[flyingSquirrel]

After reading a number of (what else, rumors, albeit convincing ones) on a few other websites, I am highly inclined to believe that there will NOT be a 7D mark II. I am very convinced that Canon will unveil this new body, which we are referring to as the 7D mark II, as a completely "unrelated" camera line/series/ what have you. It could potentially have some things in common with the 7D, and could potentially be considered somewhat of a follow up to it, but I really think this is meant to be the next level of body, something new, different, and not really meant to be a 7D mark II. This is completely my own feeling, based on what I've read here and on other sites. All I can do, personally, is pray that it is geared toward the type of shooting that I do, and my needs. If not, I will be beyond disappointed.

EDIT: After more 100% pure speculative thinking, I have decided that I would be willing to bet money (if I had any money) that this camera will have 30+ MP, and that, in Q1 of 2015, a camera will be released from Canon which will have 40-50 MP. Call me crazy.

 

[jrista]

And back to our regularly scheduled programming.

The 7D II's new technology. What will it be? Here are my thoughts, given past Canon announcements, hints about what the 7D II will be, interviews with Canon uppers, etc.

1. Megapixels: 20-24mp
2. Focal-plane AF: Probably DPAF, with the enhancements in the patents Canon was granted at the end of 2013. *
3. New fab process: Probably 180nm, maybe on 300mm wafers. **
4. A new dedicated AF system: I don't know if it will get the 61pt AF, probably too large for the APS-C frame. A smaller version...41pts would be my hope. Same precision & accuracy of 61pt system on 5D III, with same general firmware features.
5. Increased Q.E.: Canon has been stuck below 50% Q.E. for a long time now. Their competitors have pushed up to 56% and beyond, a couple have sensors with 60% Q.E. at room temperature. Higher Q.E. should serve high ISO very well.
6. Faster frame rate: I suspect 10fps. I don't think it will be faster than that, 12fps is the reserved territory of the 1D line.
7. Dual cards: CF (CFast2) + SD. I hate that, personally, but I really don't see the 7D line getting dual CF cards. (I'll HAPPILY be proven wrong here, though!)
8. No integrated battery grip. Just doesn't make sense, the 7D was kind of a smaller, lighter, more agile alternative to the 1D, a grip totally kills that.
9. New 1DX/5DIII menu system. Personally, I would very much welcome this! LOVE the menu system of the 5D III.
10. GPI and WiFi: I think both should find their way into the 7D II, what with the 6D having them. Honestly not certain, though...guess it's a tossup.
11. Video features: Video has always been core to the 7D II rumors. 60fps 1080p; 120fps 720p (?); HDMI RAW output; External mic jack; 4:2:2; I think DIGIC 7 would probably arrive with enhancements on the DIGIC 6 image and video processing features. Maybe on par with Sony's Bionz X chip.

* Namely, split photodiodes, but with different sizes...one half is a high sensitivity half, the other half is a lower sensitivity half. The patents are in Japanese, and the translations are horrible, so I am not sure exactly WHY this is good, but Canon's R&D guys seem to think it will not only improve AF performance and speed, but "reduce the negative impact to IQ"....which seems to indicate that the use of dual photodiodes has some kind of impact on IQ, a negative impact.

** We know Canon has been using a 180nm process for their smaller form factor sensors for a while. Not long ago, a rumor came through, I think here on CR, indicating Canon was building a new fab and would be moving to 300mm wafers. That should greatly help Canon's ability to fabricate large sensors with complex pixels for a lot cheaper. A smaller process would increase the usable area for photodiodes, as transistors and wiring would be a lot smaller than they are today on Canon's 500nm process. That would be a big benefit for smaller-pixel sensors. If they moved to a 90nm process, all the better. I don't suspect we'll see any kind of BSI in the 7D II...but, who knows.

41 AF points would be excellent, especially if they were all cross-type! Still, Nikon has crammed 51 into its cropped frame, so it might be possible for Canon to put 61 into a crop frame. Based on what I've read (and the little on the few minutes I actually handled a 1DX at a camera show), the 61 point systems on the 1DX/5D3 are quite concentrated in the centre. Is it possible for Canon to adapt a 61 point system for the 7D2 that fills more of the frame, given that it's a crop? Would that be a possible adaptation of the existing Full Frame AF to a Crop Frame analogue--same density over a "larger" area of the frame given the tighter field of view?

As to the frame rate, the initial specs all said 10 fps. When they suddenly began to suggest it might be 12, I was rather surprised, but I'd be pleased if it were true--but 10 will be awesome too (it definitely needs to outperform the 8 fps of the current model!). I suppose it depends on what they think Nikon will do, and also what the next 1D series will do. I also think it will probably be 10, but 12 would give it more time on top of the competition and they might just want to overshoot in order to make this a standard for crop-frames for the next several years.

Either way, I'm excited!

The Canon 61pt system was actually ground-breaking for covering the widest spread of frame ever. Based on what I see in my 5D III viewfinder, I think the AF point spread is larger than the entire 7D frame! It's actually rather incredible.

That said, the dedicated phase-detect system is comprised of a little unit embedded in the base of the mirror box. Part of the unit is a small lens that splits the light and redirects it to each line sensor. I don't see why that little lens couldn't be redesigned for a smaller frame, but then I don't know if the size of the AF sensor itself would be too large (require too much bending of light that you could no longer accurately detect phase at the extremes?)

I think a 10fps frame rate is more than reasonable. I was pretty happy with 8fps on the 7D, 10fps would just be a bonus. I think 12fps would require some fairly significant engineering...that was another one of the ground-breaking things with the 1D X. They had to completely redesign the mirror apparatus to handle that kind of frame rate. It really sounds like a machine gun, too, and I'm actually not sure I like that. The 5D III is so quiet, it's wonderful for wildlife (it has more of a soft chi-ching sound, vs. the 7D's cha-thuck, and the 1D's Cha!-Cha!-Cha!-Cha!-Cha!-CHA!)

 

[jrista]

After reading a number of (what else, rumors, albeit convincing ones) on a few other websites, I am highly inclined to believe that there will NOT be a 7D mark II. I am very convinced that Canon will unveil this new body, which we are referring to as the 7D mark II, as a completely "unrelated" camera line/series/ what have you. It could potentially have some things in common with the 7D, and could potentially be considered somewhat of a follow up to it, but I really think this is meant to be the next level of body, something new, different, and not really meant to be a 7D mark II. This is completely my own feeling, based on what I've read here and on other sites. All I can do, personally, is pray that it is geared toward the type of shooting that I do, and my needs. If not, I will be beyond disappointed.

EDIT: After more 100% pure speculative thinking, I have decided that I would be willing to bet money (if I had any money) that this camera will have 30+ MP, and that, in Q1 of 2015, a camera will be released from Canon which will have 40-50 MP. Call me crazy.

If the thing that is released is heavily video-based, then I think it'll probably be something else. If it is still primarily a stills DSLR geared for semi-pro action shooters, I think it will still get the 7D moniker.

 

[mb66energy]

What about a 7D C(inema) as a parallel development with
4k Video at reasonable frame rates
a hybrid viewfinder

and a photo related 7D mark II which will be anounced later
with a totally new sensor tech.
Preferably a sensor which separates the whole incoming light
e.g. by interference filters to feed three photodiodes for R-, G- and
B-channel ... just dreaming about nearly lossless color separation
and a 1:1 mapping of imaging and image pixels!

 

[Palettemediaproduktion]

Why don't we just sit still and wait until Canon actually shows us the next camera instead of guessing like this? Answer: Because it is so fun to guess and speculate. We enjoy ourselves here. My suggestion is to have a gentle smile on the lips writing your next post. I have a hard time with some of the heavy metal "I know better than all of you" styles appearing here from time to time.

Ones upon a time the earth was considered to be flat. Then some one at the risk of his life made it change to a sphere. Today you find lots of clips on YouTube suggesting it is flat after all. Or rather: an inverted sphere. And of course we would all like to kill them off and will not listen to their claimed proofs. This is the downside of being a human. We are always feeling we got it better than everyone else. That is how the thinking brain we have is designed to function. "We will never fly, there will never be color television". You know, most of us are not interested in becoming a new Jules Verne. We just want everyone with a different idea that opposes our believes to shut up! And then have them say "My fault. YOU are right."

We can help each other to gain from this if we use our knowledge about the strong part of our intellect and the embarrassing backsides. A flexible mind will move faster towards the unseen and not yet achieved. And lets be honest. We all would like to be there at the heart of the Canon development office giving them our best advices how to make next camera PERFECT. So let us unite and go to work We can fix this!

Now

Thank you guys for fighting about the "quad pixel theory" for me. I was tempted to rush back into it but I felt some good persons with a sharper intellect could do it better. Now I can step back in and continue where I left. There is still smoke in the air. Somehow I fear it is not going to disappear. Thank you X-vision for doing the dirty work for me


canonrumors.com quote:

"We’re told to definitely expect new sensor technology to be introduced in the Canon EOS 7D Mark II. This tech will be used in all forthcoming Canon DSLRs. What is it? We’re not 100% sure yet, though we’re told it’s definitely not a foveon type technology that we’ve previously seen in patents.

This may be one of Canon’s best kept secrets as it’s apparently going to be more than an “evolutionary” technology."

Link: http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/06/new-sensor-tech-in-eos-7d-mark-ii-cr2/


This sounds like speculation, but still I think most people here believe it could be true, right? So now I will SPECULATE and do some guessing together with you. If Canon actually is moving on to new sensor tech. What is it? And are they making a U-turn or are they just pushing the tech forward in more than one step at the time?

If the quote from canonrumors is to be taken seriously the new sensor tech will be used on both pro and at least semipro DSLR in the future. FF and crop sensors will share this technology.

Some might say it will most likely just be180nm process and that´s it. But that will not be named "Canon’s best kept secrets" by anyone. So I think it is reasonable to assume they are trying to develop something that can rival the current SONY sensor tech.

I have already posted the link to the paper describing the CMOS Image Sensors With Multi-Bucket Pixels for Computational Photography in IEEE

JOURNAL OF SOLID-STATE CIRCUITS, VOL. 47, NO. 4, APRIL 2012 written by Gordon Wan, Xiangli Li, Marc Levoy, Mark Horowitz and Gennadiy Agranov - Vice President of Imaging Technology at Aptina Imaging. They describe the quad bucket sensor aimed at Computational Photography.

https://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/gordon-multibucket-jssc12.pdf


Thanks to the last posts from X-vision we can compare this with the Canon patented dual pixel concept.


In the simplified abstract Canon says:

"Each pixel on the EOS 70D camera's sensor consists of two independent photodiodes that function both as imaging points and as individual phase-difference AF sensors. When the shutter button is pressed, parallax images on each photodiode of the pixel are detected, the amount of lens drive is calculated to correct the amount of shift in the AF points, and AF is achieved nearly instantaneously. During image capture, the same two photodiodes record the image and output as a single pixel. By placing approximately 40.3 million photodiodes on the camera's sensor, two per pixel, this caliber of AF is possible on approximately 80% of the image plane, vertically and horizontally. When the image or video clip is being captured, the CMOS sensor behaves as it always has with EOS SLR cameras, unimpeded by the dual photodiodes and recording each individual pixel with virtually no loss of detail or sharpness."

In the detail patent we start to see that we might all be fooled by the "smoke screen" of the mixed terminology. It may be the reason why we are having these unnecessary confused discussions. We are presented several different words describing the subpixel function.

A) Independent photodiode (Canon)
B) Subpixel (Canon)
C) Bucket (Aptina)



I have mentioned before on the forum that the people at Aptina are discussing the Computational use of a quad bucket pixel design. Or call it a quad pixel under one micro lens. Canon calls its tech "dual pixel" but I think people more and more start to realize that is just "a name". It is a dual subpixel design. We have to start describing the design more clearly from now on! I might go for dual (or quad in the future) pixel. But someone might want to call it "dual bucket pixel" or "dual subpixel" instead. In any case lets agree that each subpixel has its own individual signal line that now or in the future can be used separately for computational DSP. That is my claim any way. Other might just want to stick to the idea that it can only be used for autofocus. And if/when the A/D conversion is done directly on the chip or even on every single pixel the next logical step is to allow for a design with four A/D channels per pixel if we talk about a quad diode design. (quad buckets or subpixels under one micro lens).

This is what the Aptina folks have been looking into for several reasons.


The "buckets" discussed here have separate outputs and can be read as four individual signals in order to use them for computational processing. You can set four different ISO - one for each "bucket" output. You can read them separately with a very short, but still, time delay. You can compare the four signals and let a DSP use them for computing how to reduce the noise signal while preserving the statistically most likely source signal value. Isn´t this what astro photographers try to achieve by combining four pixel values down to one (down sampling the image size OR just smudging the image by showing the median value of four pixels with smooth transition to next block of four...) on the image in post processing?

Sandwiching several images is another popular way to reduce the high frequency noise generated during exposure. But it takes several images at higher ISO and that makes it useless for shooting moving objects. And we still have no clue what is signal and what is noise. We must use a lot of images to exclude the noise from the signal. During the time you are taking multiple images the signal itself might have been differing A LOT. So
we are averaging the signal and the noise at the same time. Think about long exposure of the sea. It is useless if we want to describe objects that move over time. And here we are of course talking about how to reduce noise from a sensor that deliver video as well as photos.

How do we reduce noise at hi ISO in 4K video at frame rates between 50 and 200p (to come early next year or in five years perhaps). One solution will be to average multiple versions of the exact same moment. That is what quad bucket computation is able to help us do. And not only averaging. We can apply statistic analyze to perfect the noise cancelation. How that is done should probably be handed over to the guys at TOPAZ or Adobe to tell about. Or the other guy, you all know who I am referring to. (He might have mentioned that when he reaches 4000 posts he will actually go for a 5 minute walk in the park.)

The optimal noise reduction needs multiple samples to compare. Is it a really smart thing to make that inside the microlens. "ONE" signal (light) goes in through the micro lens. It is interpreted by four individual receivers and the DSP uses intelligent software to try to separate noise from the sensor from the signal. The result is written as one pixel (R, G or B) in the RAW file. Or, why not keep it individual to be able to post process it further with more computer power and future, not yet invented, algorithms. Hmm.. maybe not this year.

The advantage of computing multiple signals collected at one single moment is the key thing here. The downside is, yes I agree, that the individual buckets are smaller and will collect less photons. And this will reduce the benefits of the "quad pixel" design in terms of noise performance. But maybe less than we might expect. Aptina has invested time and supposedly money exploring the concept. They seem to think they are getting somewhere.

So could this be what Canon also look into. The "dual pixel" patents keep coming and that points at the propability that Canon move on in this direction.

Canon´s "latest dual pixel" patent point at the use of two photo diodes with different size. Making it more efficient and potentially resulting in a sensor with much higher dynamic range. There is a possible way to move on from there. To take it one more step further. You might guess what I am thinking about, right? You clever people!

Patent description here:
http://www.canonwatch.com/canon-patent-next-dual-pixel-cmos-auto-focus-70d-end-story/


Now I think I hear roaring animals in the background. OK. Let the lions in. And the big elephants too.
Hi guys. No objections i suppose. Everyone agree right. Right?

 

[dgatwood]

You are only assuming that by a 'sub-pixel' Canon actually means a photodiode.
This is just an assumption, however, as no statement/fact from the patent supports it.
Let's be very clear about this.

I, on the other hand, am assuming that a sub-pixel is in fact a full-blown pixel.
This is another assumption, however, as the patent doesn't define what a sub-pixel really is.

Short answer: Both halves of the pixel are photodiodes or equivalent. That's the only way you can get a signal from them. Both are underneath a single lens, so they get the same light, at least for in-focus content. For OOF content, the two halves get OOF bleed from opposite sides of the lens, resulting in a difference in amplitude that tells them which parts of the image are out of focus).

Because they both are under a single microlens and are stored in the final RAW output as a single value, I would consider them to be a single pixel. Well, I personally would call each pair a subpixel, since it only represents a single color within what will eventually become a pixel on final output, but....

 

[Marauder]

And back to our regularly scheduled programming.

The 7D II's new technology. What will it be? Here are my thoughts, given past Canon announcements, hints about what the 7D II will be, interviews with Canon uppers, etc.

1. Megapixels: 20-24mp
2. Focal-plane AF: Probably DPAF, with the enhancements in the patents Canon was granted at the end of 2013. *
3. New fab process: Probably 180nm, maybe on 300mm wafers. **
4. A new dedicated AF system: I don't know if it will get the 61pt AF, probably too large for the APS-C frame. A smaller version...41pts would be my hope. Same precision & accuracy of 61pt system on 5D III, with same general firmware features.
5. Increased Q.E.: Canon has been stuck below 50% Q.E. for a long time now. Their competitors have pushed up to 56% and beyond, a couple have sensors with 60% Q.E. at room temperature. Higher Q.E. should serve high ISO very well.
6. Faster frame rate: I suspect 10fps. I don't think it will be faster than that, 12fps is the reserved territory of the 1D line.
7. Dual cards: CF (CFast2) + SD. I hate that, personally, but I really don't see the 7D line getting dual CF cards. (I'll HAPPILY be proven wrong here, though!)
8. No integrated battery grip. Just doesn't make sense, the 7D was kind of a smaller, lighter, more agile alternative to the 1D, a grip totally kills that.
9. New 1DX/5DIII menu system. Personally, I would very much welcome this! LOVE the menu system of the 5D III.
10. GPI and WiFi: I think both should find their way into the 7D II, what with the 6D having them. Honestly not certain, though...guess it's a tossup.
11. Video features: Video has always been core to the 7D II rumors. 60fps 1080p; 120fps 720p (?); HDMI RAW output; External mic jack; 4:2:2; I think DIGIC 7 would probably arrive with enhancements on the DIGIC 6 image and video processing features. Maybe on par with Sony's Bionz X chip.

* Namely, split photodiodes, but with different sizes...one half is a high sensitivity half, the other half is a lower sensitivity half. The patents are in Japanese, and the translations are horrible, so I am not sure exactly WHY this is good, but Canon's R&D guys seem to think it will not only improve AF performance and speed, but "reduce the negative impact to IQ"....which seems to indicate that the use of dual photodiodes has some kind of impact on IQ, a negative impact.

** We know Canon has been using a 180nm process for their smaller form factor sensors for a while. Not long ago, a rumor came through, I think here on CR, indicating Canon was building a new fab and would be moving to 300mm wafers. That should greatly help Canon's ability to fabricate large sensors with complex pixels for a lot cheaper. A smaller process would increase the usable area for photodiodes, as transistors and wiring would be a lot smaller than they are today on Canon's 500nm process. That would be a big benefit for smaller-pixel sensors. If they moved to a 90nm process, all the better. I don't suspect we'll see any kind of BSI in the 7D II...but, who knows.

41 AF points would be excellent, especially if they were all cross-type! Still, Nikon has crammed 51 into its cropped frame, so it might be possible for Canon to put 61 into a crop frame. Based on what I've read (and the little on the few minutes I actually handled a 1DX at a camera show), the 61 point systems on the 1DX/5D3 are quite concentrated in the centre. Is it possible for Canon to adapt a 61 point system for the 7D2 that fills more of the frame, given that it's a crop? Would that be a possible adaptation of the existing Full Frame AF to a Crop Frame analogue--same density over a "larger" area of the frame given the tighter field of view?

As to the frame rate, the initial specs all said 10 fps. When they suddenly began to suggest it might be 12, I was rather surprised, but I'd be pleased if it were true--but 10 will be awesome too (it definitely needs to outperform the 8 fps of the current model!). I suppose it depends on what they think Nikon will do, and also what the next 1D series will do. I also think it will probably be 10, but 12 would give it more time on top of the competition and they might just want to overshoot in order to make this a standard for crop-frames for the next several years.

Either way, I'm excited!

The Canon 61pt system was actually ground-breaking for covering the widest spread of frame ever. Based on what I see in my 5D III viewfinder, I think the AF point spread is larger than the entire 7D frame! It's actually rather incredible.

That said, the dedicated phase-detect system is comprised of a little unit embedded in the base of the mirror box. Part of the unit is a small lens that splits the light and redirects it to each line sensor. I don't see why that little lens couldn't be redesigned for a smaller frame, but then I don't know if the size of the AF sensor itself would be too large (require too much bending of light that you could no longer accurately detect phase at the extremes?)

I think a 10fps frame rate is more than reasonable. I was pretty happy with 8fps on the 7D, 10fps would just be a bonus. I think 12fps would require some fairly significant engineering...that was another one of the ground-breaking things with the 1D X. They had to completely redesign the mirror apparatus to handle that kind of frame rate. It really sounds like a machine gun, too, and I'm actually not sure I like that. The 5D III is so quiet, it's wonderful for wildlife (it has more of a soft chi-ching sound, vs. the 7D's cha-thuck, and the 1D's Cha!-Cha!-Cha!-Cha!-Cha!-CHA!)

I rather like the sound of my 7D shutter. Much more pleasant than my T3i. But yes, 10 fps would be fine--the 8 fps of the current model is already quite impressive and 10 will match the 1D4 and 1D3, which is impressive in and of itself.

As to names, well I'm not sure. I hope they call it 7D Mark II, but I'm more interested in what it does than what it's called. I don't mind it having good video features, but I hope it's a stills powerhouse as I rarely use it. If it's primarily a video device, with only minor upgrades to the stills capabilities, it will not interest me. But I suspect the rumours that it is going to be aimed at wildlife and fast action shooting with the addition of cool video features is more likely -- and then it will be awesome!

 

[tayassu]

And back to our regularly scheduled programming.

The 7D II's new technology. What will it be? Here are my thoughts, given past Canon announcements, hints about what the 7D II will be, interviews with Canon uppers, etc.

1. Megapixels: 20-24mp
2. Focal-plane AF: Probably DPAF, with the enhancements in the patents Canon was granted at the end of 2013. *
3. New fab process: Probably 180nm, maybe on 300mm wafers. **
4. A new dedicated AF system: I don't know if it will get the 61pt AF, probably too large for the APS-C frame. A smaller version...41pts would be my hope. Same precision & accuracy of 61pt system on 5D III, with same general firmware features.
5. Increased Q.E.: Canon has been stuck below 50% Q.E. for a long time now. Their competitors have pushed up to 56% and beyond, a couple have sensors with 60% Q.E. at room temperature. Higher Q.E. should serve high ISO very well.
6. Faster frame rate: I suspect 10fps. I don't think it will be faster than that, 12fps is the reserved territory of the 1D line.
7. Dual cards: CF (CFast2) + SD. I hate that, personally, but I really don't see the 7D line getting dual CF cards. (I'll HAPPILY be proven wrong here, though!)
8. No integrated battery grip. Just doesn't make sense, the 7D was kind of a smaller, lighter, more agile alternative to the 1D, a grip totally kills that.
9. New 1DX/5DIII menu system. Personally, I would very much welcome this! LOVE the menu system of the 5D III.
10. GPI and WiFi: I think both should find their way into the 7D II, what with the 6D having them. Honestly not certain, though...guess it's a tossup.
11. Video features: Video has always been core to the 7D II rumors. 60fps 1080p; 120fps 720p (?); HDMI RAW output; External mic jack; 4:2:2; I think DIGIC 7 would probably arrive with enhancements on the DIGIC 6 image and video processing features. Maybe on par with Sony's Bionz X chip.

* Namely, split photodiodes, but with different sizes...one half is a high sensitivity half, the other half is a lower sensitivity half. The patents are in Japanese, and the translations are horrible, so I am not sure exactly WHY this is good, but Canon's R&D guys seem to think it will not only improve AF performance and speed, but "reduce the negative impact to IQ"....which seems to indicate that the use of dual photodiodes has some kind of impact on IQ, a negative impact.

** We know Canon has been using a 180nm process for their smaller form factor sensors for a while. Not long ago, a rumor came through, I think here on CR, indicating Canon was building a new fab and would be moving to 300mm wafers. That should greatly help Canon's ability to fabricate large sensors with complex pixels for a lot cheaper. A smaller process would increase the usable area for photodiodes, as transistors and wiring would be a lot smaller than they are today on Canon's 500nm process. That would be a big benefit for smaller-pixel sensors. If they moved to a 90nm process, all the better. I don't suspect we'll see any kind of BSI in the 7D II...but, who knows.

41 AF points would be excellent, especially if they were all cross-type! Still, Nikon has crammed 51 into its cropped frame, so it might be possible for Canon to put 61 into a crop frame. Based on what I've read (and the little on the few minutes I actually handled a 1DX at a camera show), the 61 point systems on the 1DX/5D3 are quite concentrated in the centre. Is it possible for Canon to adapt a 61 point system for the 7D2 that fills more of the frame, given that it's a crop? Would that be a possible adaptation of the existing Full Frame AF to a Crop Frame analogue--same density over a "larger" area of the frame given the tighter field of view?

As to the frame rate, the initial specs all said 10 fps. When they suddenly began to suggest it might be 12, I was rather surprised, but I'd be pleased if it were true--but 10 will be awesome too (it definitely needs to outperform the 8 fps of the current model!). I suppose it depends on what they think Nikon will do, and also what the next 1D series will do. I also think it will probably be 10, but 12 would give it more time on top of the competition and they might just want to overshoot in order to make this a standard for crop-frames for the next several years.

Either way, I'm excited!

The Canon 61pt system was actually ground-breaking for covering the widest spread of frame ever. Based on what I see in my 5D III viewfinder, I think the AF point spread is larger than the entire 7D frame! It's actually rather incredible.

That said, the dedicated phase-detect system is comprised of a little unit embedded in the base of the mirror box. Part of the unit is a small lens that splits the light and redirects it to each line sensor. I don't see why that little lens couldn't be redesigned for a smaller frame, but then I don't know if the size of the AF sensor itself would be too large (require too much bending of light that you could no longer accurately detect phase at the extremes?)

I think a 10fps frame rate is more than reasonable. I was pretty happy with 8fps on the 7D, 10fps would just be a bonus. I think 12fps would require some fairly significant engineering...that was another one of the ground-breaking things with the 1D X. They had to completely redesign the mirror apparatus to handle that kind of frame rate. It really sounds like a machine gun, too, and I'm actually not sure I like that. The 5D III is so quiet, it's wonderful for wildlife (it has more of a soft chi-ching sound, vs. the 7D's cha-thuck, and the 1D's Cha!-Cha!-Cha!-Cha!-Cha!-CHA!)

I rather like the sound of my 7D shutter. Much more pleasant than my T3i. But yes, 10 fps would be fine--the 8 fps of the current model is already quite impressive and 10 will match the 1D4 and 1D3, which is impressive in and of itself.

As to names, well I'm not sure. I hope they call it 7D Mark II, but I'm more interested in what it does than what it's called. I don't mind it having good video features, but I hope it's a stills powerhouse as I rarely use it. If it's primarily a video device, with only minor upgrades to the stills capabilities, it will not interest me. But I suspect the rumours that it is going to be aimed at wildlife and fast action shooting with the addition of cool video features is more likely -- and then it will be awesome!

+1
Although, if they call it something else, the 7D will have a price increase, because it is the only 7D ever, which makes that an advantage for every 7D user ;D

 

[cnardo]

My post from yesterday might have OBE'd, and/lost in yesterday's lively technical discussion, so here it is again. Have we discounted Canon Watch's statement ??


Re: New Sensor Tech in EOS 7D Mark II [CR2]
« Reply #135 on: June 21, 2014, 01:02:38 PM »
Looks like the folks over at Canonwatch.com have a different take on this whole 7D2, new sensor info going around as well as both announcement dates and shipping dates!
Logged

 

[cnardo]

Here is their full posting.


Think it is time to sum up some of the rumors I am getting.

I’ve been told (thanks) that whatever Canon is going to announce the third week of August 2014 (18th is the buzz) will be “something really big“ that will reaffirm Canon’s role as a leading imaging company.

This is the same source that contacted me time ago, saying that Canon will not replace the EOS 7D, which is part of a plan targeting a general revamping of Canon’s higher end DSLR lineup. The source repeated that what is coming is ”the biggest change in Canon’s history“.

The same source said that the camera Canon is going to announce will feature a new sensor technology. There is a lot of buzz on the web talking about a possible Foveon sensor (it surfaced previously). I got notified that a new sensor technology will come indeed, without a Foveon-like sensor being explicitly mentioned. The rumors about a new sensor technology seem to be the most reliable so far.

And then there is the viewfinder. Back in December 2013 I had some rumors about a hybrid viewfinder. Well, this is surfacing again too. It also seems that Canon is working on a camera that is oriented to new levels of videography.

Finally, Canon’s big shot that’s going to be announced at the end of August, will be ready to ship in October (so I have been told). It will be showcased at Photokina 2014 with big fanfare, and start to ship the weeks after.

Some considerations. Canon has the research facilities and the engineering know-how to produce something totally new and innovative. A new sensor technology by Canon is at least possible given the fact that Canon’s scientific and technological resources go far beyond their conservative reputation and equally conservative approach to sensor technology of the last years. However, at this stage it is difficult to distinguish the wishful thinking from the reliable rumors.

Take everything with a reasonable pinch of salt. There will be more in the next weeks.

Stay tuned…

 

[flyingSquirrel]

Here is their full posting.


Think it is time to sum up some of the rumors I am getting.

I’ve been told (thanks) that whatever Canon is going to announce the third week of August 2014 (18th is the buzz) will be “something really big“ that will reaffirm Canon’s role as a leading imaging company.

This is the same source that contacted me time ago, saying that Canon will not replace the EOS 7D, which is part of a plan targeting a general revamping of Canon’s higher end DSLR lineup. The source repeated that what is coming is ”the biggest change in Canon’s history“.

The same source said that the camera Canon is going to announce will feature a new sensor technology. There is a lot of buzz on the web talking about a possible Foveon sensor (it surfaced previously). I got notified that a new sensor technology will come indeed, without a Foveon-like sensor being explicitly mentioned. The rumors about a new sensor technology seem to be the most reliable so far.

And then there is the viewfinder. Back in December 2013 I had some rumors about a hybrid viewfinder. Well, this is surfacing again too. It also seems that Canon is working on a camera that is oriented to new levels of videography.

Finally, Canon’s big shot that’s going to be announced at the end of August, will be ready to ship in October (so I have been told). It will be showcased at Photokina 2014 with big fanfare, and start to ship the weeks after.

Some considerations. Canon has the research facilities and the engineering know-how to produce something totally new and innovative. A new sensor technology by Canon is at least possible given the fact that Canon’s scientific and technological resources go far beyond their conservative reputation and equally conservative approach to sensor technology of the last years. However, at this stage it is difficult to distinguish the wishful thinking from the reliable rumors.

Take everything with a reasonable pinch of salt. There will be more in the next weeks.

Stay tuned…

I did notice your original post from earlier (between all the hullabaloo and vicious arguments regarding technology), went over and read that, and then formulated my reply from earlier:

"After reading a number of (what else, rumors, albeit convincing ones) on a few other websites, I am highly inclined to believe that there will NOT be a 7D mark II. I am very convinced that Canon will unveil this new body, which we are referring to as the 7D mark II, as a completely "unrelated" camera line/series/ what have you. It could potentially have some things in common with the 7D, and could potentially be considered somewhat of a follow up to it, but I really think this is meant to be the next level of body, something new, different, and not really meant to be a 7D mark II. This is completely my own feeling, based on what I've read here and on other sites. All I can do, personally, is pray that it is geared toward the type of shooting that I do, and my needs. If not, I will be beyond disappointed.

After more 100% pure speculative thinking, I have decided that I would be willing to bet money (if I had any money) that this camera will have 30+ MP, and that, in Q1 of 2015, a camera will be released from Canon which will have 40-50 MP. Call me crazy."