New TS-E Lenses for Photokina [CR2]

Random Orbits said:
...... Perhaps integrated macro rail into the lens foot?......
Lens foot!! YES! Do want that!!
An integrated macro rail!! Brilliant! I think I want that too, or maybe better if it's done in true Canon style and available as an extra cost option. Maybe a manual, hand operated version, another version with a stepper motor controllable from DPP, Lightroom or a smartphone app.





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dilbert said:
privatebydesign said:
Random Orbits said:
RGF said:
dilbert said:
Maybe they'll be tilt, shift and swing lenses?

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a swing lens?

I think dilbert is suggesting a lens that can tilt in two axes at the same time. For view cameras, tilt referreded to up/down and swing left/right movements.

Dilbert is being silly. All Canon T/S lenses can be used to combine Tilt and Swing in any direction.

But there are alignment features in the latest two (17 & 24) that were not present in prior models however the current design (i believe) is limited to having both planes either aligned or at right angles. Maybe they've worked out how to allow an arbitrary alignment of axes?

btw, hasn't someone found a patent or two to read??

You need to look at stuff more before making silly misinformed posts. All Canon T/S lenses from the FD 35mm T/S can do unlimited swing/tilt movements, the rotation needed to do that has always been there.

What was new to the 24 MkII and 17 was the ability to set the tilt/swing combo anywhere in relation to the shift/rise/fall movement. It does not need to be aligned or at right angles with these lenses, though the earlier ones do.

With the 24 MkII and the 17, and I suspect any new T/S lenses, you can place shift/rise/fall at any angle, you can place tilt/swing at any angle too.

You are asking for a feature that you clearly don't understand, that we already have.
 
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tolusina said:
Above, you asked what a lens mount means, I explained somewhat. I note also, by Neuro's comments, he gets the concept and needs no explanation.

No, there are no TS-E images of mine to post, I don't yet own a TS-E, I've been hoping for a new lens to be released, this rumor fuels my dreams. The 24 sounds about perfect except I don't care for the 24mm perspective. The current 45 and 90 don't have the movement flexibility of the 17 and 24, the Schneiders are too expensive, too manual even for an old guy like me lacking even electronic aperture control, they also have meh reviews.
Um, by design, you've stated your photos are private, you've got a lot of nerve requesting anyone else's.

If Canon is introducing new TS-Es, yeah, I'd like the option of a proper lens mount. That's also optional to use or not, camera mount will still be available.

For all the permutations possible with a TS-E, placing the lens and it's image circle in one place, then moving the sensor within that image circle without tripod gymnastics sounds very desirable to me.
Get IT yet? Or is your repeatedly demonstrated lack of reading comprehension skills guiding your fingers on your keyboard.

I know what a lens mount means, I have explained and illustrated your concept many times, I was also pretty sure that you had little to no experience of actually using T/S lenses, and that is my point. It is all very well having an opinion, and we are all entitled to those, but having an opinion based on nothing is worth just that.

I know Neuro has T/S lenses and uses them, I also know when I ask him for an illustrative example, of which I have posted hundreds, he almost always does. That helps. It helps not only me and him it helps all the readers of the threads and the knowledge base of the site.

I was merely putting in perspective the amount of actual use this desired feature is. When I last did this on this very subject the poster who was most emphatic about its benefits ended up admitting they never now use it.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=3055.msg376997#msg376997

Go figure..........

Not saying it is of no use, just not the "issue" so many people who have never used the T/S lenses without the feature seem to think it is.
 
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StudentOfLight said:
I think that maybe these new TS-E lenses will have the ability to electronically register the Tilt and Shift positions, which might allow for advanced lens corrections in post.

I know nothing, but I know that indeed I could use THAT feature either live or in PP (as to figure waht went wrong ::) )
 
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privatebydesign said:
…...I know what a lens mount means......
Then asking...
privatebydesign said:
What does that mean?
fits the description of a stupid question, one you already know the answer to. It also fits in to the definition of passive/aggressive behavior, you posed that question simply to instigate argument.

privatebydesign said:
Alan,

Buy the sounds of your reply you have never actually done any of this.

First, show me an image taken......
From the little I read of that thread, you have not actually used a tilt shift lens with as lens foot either, if you have, “show me an image taken”, put up or shut up.
You seem only able to ridicule the concept in favor of Photoshopraphy, why do in camera what you can do in post?
I counter with, why correct in post what can be done well in camera?

Canon is rumored to be releasing a new TS-E, why do you find it objectionable that these new lenses might incorporate a lens foot, or are you just ranting to start arguments.
Your way is not the only way, if it was, I’d have smashed all my photo gear as soon as I learned that.

privatebydesign said:
...... I was also pretty sure that you had little to no experience of actually using T/S lenses, and that is my point. …..
Well, neener neener on me by you, feel better now? Have your imagined alpha male issues been satisfied?
Where are YOUR images taken with TS-E with lens foot? Huh?

privatebydesign said:
Not saying it is of no use, just not the "issue" so many people who have never used the T/S lenses without the feature seem to think it is.
No, can you be acknowledging that there is an issue that just might, possibly be addressed with one or both of these new rumored lenses?
I'll keep my daydream wishes thank you very much, hope Canon makes them come true whether you approve or not.
 
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...and back to the original post...I wonder what the unique feature will be. I hope it's not IS as that would add a lot of cost to lenses that would be used on the tripod 99% of the time for most people. Macro (even 1:2) would be pretty cool and that's what I'm hoping for if anything. Or maybe they'll have a built in teleconverter ;). Beyond that, maybe the T/S mechanisms will improved beyond the current TS-E Ls, with more durable parts.

Whatever they do, I'm sure it will be intere$$$ting.
 
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tolusina said:
You seem only able to ridicule the concept in favor of Photoshopraphy, why do in camera what you can do in post?

Not at all, my point was, if you use a lens mount with a design as you asked you convert your setup to rear movements rather than front movements (unless you also commit to a good geared head and deeply understand what you are doing). From an image making point of view front movements have always been much more important than rear movements which traditionally have been used to exaggerate perspective and distort objects within the image.

135 format sensors and even the most flexible T/S lenses are not, and never will be, ultimate replacements for field cameras, even less so technical cameras. If you just want to emulate a bigger sensor with a shift lens then parallax might become an issue, that you can easily work around, if you have a certain set of circumstances that nobody I have asked has ever actually encountered in real life shooting, and you also have to throw away the most unique functionality in the lens, a function that cannot be replicated in post, so I question its value from an experienced point of view, is that wrong?

What would be very cool and a practical benefit, if they made a lens mount, would be for it to be between the tilt and the shift mechanics providing the tilt is in front of the shift, like it is with the current lenses, if the design is not a rerofocus design. Then you would have the ultimate benefits of the T/S lenses plane of focus control, without inducing distortion, and the ability to do your emulated sensor enlargement without the possibility of parallax. Retrofocus T/S lenses create many issues with tilt use, as I am sure you know.
 
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Mac, I don't think macro ability would be as much use as hoped, the amount of tilt needed at macro distances is well outside the range of the all in one lenses.

tolusina, now a drop in filter slot would be a very decent addition, not sure how much more practical it would be than a regular setup, (TS/E 17 excepted) but a nice idea. The thing that would scare me would be Canon's complete failure to support it, like the 600-EX-RT filter "set", it is a good job third parties have stepped up to support the factory gel holder.

I like the idea of registering the tilt and especially the shift amount for correction in post best, and it would make the most difference in time to me. But again I fear that would mean a compulsory trip to DPP to make it work.
 
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privatebydesign said:
Mac, I don't think macro ability would be as much use as hoped, the amount of tilt needed at macro distances is well outside the range of the all in one lenses.
True on the macro piece and I only have the 24mm so I haven't fooled around with close shots, but I know Canon plugs the 45mm a lot for close up work.
privatebydesign said:
But again I fear that would mean a compulsory trip to DPP to make it work.
So true, and every time I use DPP, I want to pull my hair out. Canon seems to have no idea what fine adjustments mean. It would be nice for vignette correction, but that's not a huge challenge with most tools.
 
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privatebydesign said:
I like the idea of registering the tilt and especially the shift amount for correction in post best, and it would make the most difference in time to me. But again I fear that would mean a compulsory trip to DPP to make it work.

I've had a discussion with folks at DxO about TS lens corection profiles - having the mechanisms encoded and the settings recorded in the EXIF would really facilitate development and implementation of those profiles.

I think you'd need four encoders - tilt, shift, and the rotation for each.
 
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Tolusina, you stated you are not an owner of a TS-E lens, yet you do not want to be a Photoshoprapher or whatever you called it. I have owned the new 24mm TS-E II for a while, and it is my most used lens. I use it a lot to get a wider perspective, often with foreground elements very near to the lens. This situation presents the perfect opportunity for parallax errors to be introduced. I have NEVER had a situation where I would have needed the camera to do rear movements, rather than simply mounting the camera on the tripod and moving the lens around. The software that does the stitching can account for the parallax errors you are so frightened of. And guess what? You're going to have to stitch the images anyway, and it does this automatically, there is no additional Photoshop work for you to do.

In theory, yes, the movement you described would be best. In reality, mounting the lens rather than the camera is simply not necessary. Any errors I've ever had have always been resolved by Photoshop or PTGui. The only way you'll get these errors if you simply place layers on top of each other and try to manually align them. Doing that actually takes longer than simply selecting your layers and clicking on Auto-Align.

This is why a lens mount/tripod ring will NOT be the unique feature. I'd be willing to bet my 24mm TS-E II on it in fact.
 
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mackguyver said:
privatebydesign said:
Mac, I don't think macro ability would be as much use as hoped, the amount of tilt needed at macro distances is well outside the range of the all in one lenses.
True on the macro piece and I only have the 24mm so I haven't fooled around with close shots, but I know Canon plugs the 45mm a lot for close up work.
privatebydesign said:
But again I fear that would mean a compulsory trip to DPP to make it work.
So true, and every time I use DPP, I want to pull my hair out. Canon seems to have no idea what fine adjustments mean. It would be nice for vignette correction, but that's not a huge challenge with most tools.

It isn't that the lens shouldn't focus close, it is just that the amount of tilt needed at such short J point distances seems to make a "macro" feature less practical, particularly for the 45, the 90 would gain a bit by not needing as much, but it is already a superb product/watch/jewelery lens with only 8.5º (?) of tilt.
 
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Some answers

Perhaps, I can be of some assistance in understanding a couple of questions or assertions that have been made in this thread.

First of all, Canon does offer both swing or tilt of the lens (front focus plane) on all their TS-E lenses. An analog of view camera tilt is available, defined by the lens plane moving through a defined vertically oriented arc that travels around the horizontal axis traveling through - and in front of and behind - the central, near nodal point of the lens. After rotating the mount 90 degrees, the TS-E lenses can use the exact same controls as were used for the tilt movement to swing the lens plane through a defined horizontally oriented arc that travels from left to right, around the vertical axis going through - and in front of and behind - the central, near nodal point of the lens. And if you choose to rotate the lens mount less than 90 degrees off either the vertical or horizontal axes, you will be able to combine the effects, somewhat, of both a swing and a tilt of the lens plane, the effects depending on the position of the mount.

As to the person who speculated that perhaps Canon was going to make the lens able to swing, as well as tilt, well, the above paragraph explains that that is already possible. However, if the poster is referring to the true capability of a monorail (non-monorails can also do this, but usually only tilt from the bottom, rather than the center) view camera, then, no, no current TS-E lens can achieve that. This is because, besides being able to swing/tilt the lens plane only, as TS-E lenses do, a monorail view camera can also swing/tilt the image plane (for view camera, it's the film/digital back; for a DSLR it would be the entire camera with sensor, but not lens), independently of whatever one chooses to do with the lens plane. Therefore, the view camera can swing or tilt either the front or back, in whatever direction one chooses, or swing or tilt them both at the same time. The uses of this are quite important. Tilting or swinging the back not only helps to indirectly manipulate the front focus plane much like the camera front does, but it can do something else quite important; it can effect the apparent distortion of the subject, from rectilinear-looking to comical levels of "distortion," stretching or compressing the subject to either "correct" its look or purposefully make it look less realistic. Then, oftentimes, the front is counter-moved to reset the focus plane to make up for the change of the image plane, so that the so-called Scheimpflug effect can still bring about relatively sharp focus.

Given the above, Canon could actually make a lens with two tilt/shift mechanisms, one in the "normal" position to allow front lens plane manipulation and one at the base of the lens to simulate rear standard image plane manipulation. The lens would be horribly complicated to make, and the glass itself would have to deliver a truly massively larger image circle than normal "full-frame" lenses, or even existing TS-E lenses, to compensate for the possible off-angle light projection of the two different standards. But, this could be done, especially so with a lens longer than 90 mm. I doubt if Canon, or any other lens maker will ever actually do such a thing, but it would be possible.

And as to whether having a super-telephoto-like lens mount adapter on a TS-E lens would make multiple exposure panorama-making easier, by not affecting the perspective of the multiple shifted exposures, the answer is: I think so. One TS-E's shifted lens view's perspective will not exactly match the perspective of a view from an image shifted along the same axis by the same lens, unless an appropriate image plane shift could mitigate it. To do this properly, it would work best if only the camera-sensor back itself were shifted through the image plane, and, when the lens itself is immobile on a tripod, the lens movements themselves actually serve to move only the camera body through the immobile image plane. If this does not seem practical for the owners of existing TS-E lenses to achieve, it is good to know that it is not always necessary, given the "fudge factors" available in post-processing, and that it is still possible to achieve with some extra effort and cost, via various adapters and rails.

I hope this helps.

David
 
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