Opinion: EOS-M transition that never was

[Richard CN]

Given the sales data in Japan (APS-C R bodies consistently holding three slots among the top 10 best sellers), it appears that camera buyers have embraced RF-S as a replacement for EF-M, even if some folks on this forum can’t accept it.

did they?

or did people finally give up on Canon and the EOS-M?

The M50 came out in 2018, and the M50 Mark II was basically the same camera announced 3.5 years ago - and nothing has been released in the last 5 years on the EOS-M lens wise. The M50 was outdated when it came out in terms of video, etc. The R's outclassed everything but the M6 Mark II by a wide margin, and even then it took almost 10 months for them to finally outsell the M50's? Not to mention we don't know if Japan was starting to cut back stock which would have affected sales as well.

That's not really the win you are making it out to be.

 

[Loswr]

did they?

or did people finally give up on Canon and the EOS-M?

The M50 came out in 2018, and the M50 Mark II was basically the same camera announced 3.5 years ago - and nothing has been released in the last 5 years on the EOS-M lens wise. The M50 was outdated when it came out in terms of video, etc. The R's outclassed everything but the M6 Mark II by a wide margin, and even then it took almost 10 months for them to finally outsell the M50's? Not to mention we don't know if Japan was starting to cut back stock which would have affected sales as well.

That's not really the win you are making it out to be.

If what you're suggesting is correct, and people 'gave up on Canon' then sales would reflect that.



Sure looks like buyers have 'embraced RF-S as a replacement for EF-M'. As I said, some people here simply can't accept that...or reality in general, for that matter.

EOS M models used to top the sales charts. Now APS-C EOS R models are topping the sales charts. That's reality. If you want to call that a loss for Canon, go right ahead.

Is it a loss for those of us invested in the EOS M system? Yes. Does Canon care? No. Should Canon care? No.

 

[Loswr]

Picture is missing that the R8 is so much higher.

Yes, it's sooooooo much higher. Just so high. Well, something is.

 

[Deleted member 386702]

If what you're suggesting is correct, and people 'gave up on Canon' then sales would reflect that.

View attachment 212360

Sure looks like buyers have 'embraced RF-S as a replacement for EF-M'. As I said, some people here simply can't accept that...or reality in general, for that matter.

EOS M models used to top the sales charts. Now APS-C EOS R models are topping the sales charts. That's reality. If you want to call that a loss for Canon, go right ahead.

Is it a loss for those of us invested in the EOS M system? Yes. Does Canon care? No. Should Canon care? No.

Deal with it.

Can you give details about where you found your screen...? When I look at B&H or Amazon, there is nothing like this to see at all... I live in France and here RF-S are not selling, simply... but of course it's a little country and not representative of world tendencies...

Amazon France :



Though, when checking on Amazon US ... (as you can see M200 is still ahead many others, including R100 and R50, but well, its Amazon ):


And of course at B&H, at this right time, the winner of this week is the Nikon ZF : https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...meras/ci/16158/N/4288586281?sort=BEST_SELLERS

But I guess it's just an announce effect of course... Still, the first RF-S I see in the list is far behind and is the R7...

 

[Deleted member 386702]

Yes, it's sooooooo much higher. Just so high. Well, something is.

View attachment 212363

You should put them both on a tripod, that way the difference will surely look negligible

 

[Loswr]

Can you give details about where you found your screen...?

The data are from BCN, they aggregate sales data from a large fraction of Japanese retailers and post weekly and monthly product rankings and annual brand rankings for many types of electronics.

Amazon’s rankings are something of a black box.

 

[Deleted member 386702]

The data are from BCN, they aggregate sales data from a large fraction of Japanese retailers and post weekly and monthly product rankings and annual brand rankings for many types of electronics.

Amazon’s rankings are something of a black box.

I agree about Amazon, still B&H is a good indicator of US tendencies to my sense.

I know about BCN, but I think their stats should be taken with a grain of salt. They are often kind of ahead of tendencies (probably the japanese market can give some indications of companies intentions at least) but the worldwide tendencies are also often very different from Japan.

Let's hope that will be true for Canon. For the moment, they can only hope to reach good sales for RF-S, to my sense. EOS M have been best sellers everywhere in the world for years (most sales were M50/M50 II kits for sure, though). So it can't be compared at this right time to my sense.

I think we are quite far from just a "deal with it" conclusion then.

 

[EricN]

Can you give details about where you found your screen...? When I look at B&H or Amazon, there is nothing like this to see at all... I live in France and here RF-S are not selling, simply... but of course it's a little country and not representative of world tendencies...

Amazon France :
View attachment 212362


Though, when checking on Amazon US ... (as you can see M200 is still ahead many others, including R100 and R50, but well, its Amazon ):
View attachment 212364

And of course at B&H, at this right time, the winner of this week is the Nikon ZF : https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...meras/ci/16158/N/4288586281?sort=BEST_SELLERS

But I guess it's just an announce effect of course... Still, the first RF-S I see in the list is far behind and is the R7...

To make it less confusing, you can select only apsc on B&H. I don't support Amazon

 

[AJ]

I-phone killed the M-series star. Oh ah oh..

 

[mxwphoto]

Canon please make a full frame compact ILC. It doesn't have to do crazy video like 4k 60 RAW or whatnot (less chance of overheat), just let it take good photos.

Shrink R6 into a M6 form factor, replace the PASM dial and call it a day.

 

[Loswr]

I know about BCN, but I think their stats should be taken with a grain of salt.

For Canon, they are representative of domestic sales. For a Japanese company, that’s important.

I think we are quite far from just a "deal with it" conclusion then.

Sorry, but no. That’s exactly where we are.
Canon gets to make the decision. They have discontinued the M series. What do you suggest we consumers can do, other than just ‘deal with it’?

Sure, we can argue about the reasons. We can make guesses based on BCN or Amazon sales rankings. But Canon has the data.

Sure, we can complain and moan. There seem to be a lot of experts at that on this forum. But what, do you think if we complain loudly enough then Canon will bring back the M series? Lol.

You can either deal with it, or refuse to accept reality. Obviously, we have some experts at the latter on this forum as well.

 

[LensSodomist]

The "M" really had no place in the bag of true photographic enthusiasts. It was a BS system and many have always wondered what Canon was going to do with it, and when it was going to be canceled, and these feelings were there from the launch of that system. The M seemed ephemeral, fleeting, transitional...the product of a lost and wayward company. It always seemed like Canon's heart was never into the M. One wondered if Canon was bored, and the M was born out of that boredom.

The M had its audience, non-enthusiasts, and occasional shooters, those who really did not have an eye for quality images, or those not having the $$ to buy into the better Canon systems. But it would have been wiser for those folks (getting deep into creating wonderful photos) to buy into the entry-level full-frame bodies, or at least the cropped non-M bodies.

What boggles my mind is seeing many so-called enthusiasts who talk like their religion is photography but go big into the M system. It's like a connoisseur of food eating at Taco Bell frequently.

Now that M is gone, let's hope Canon will be less distracted and more focused on the systems that matter, the systems for the true enthusiasts: The R System + RF lenses.

Where is the RF 35L f1.2????

 

[Loswr]

The "M" really had no place in the bag of true photographic enthusiasts. It was a BS system and many have always wondered what Canon was going to do with it, and when it was going to be canceled, and these feelings were there from the launch of that system. The M seemed ephemeral, fleeting, transitional...the product of a lost and wayward company. One wondered if Canon was bored, and the M was born out of that bordom.

The M had its audience, non-enthusiasts, and occasional shooters, those who really did not have an eye for quality images, or those not having the $$ to buy into the better Canon systems. But it would have been wiser for those folks (getting deep into creating wonderful photos) to buy into the entry-level full-frame bodies, or at least the cropped non-M bodies.

What boggles my mind is seeing many so-called enthusiasts who talk like their religion is photography but go big into the M system. It's like a connoisseur of food eating at Taco Bell frequently.

Now that M is gone, let's hope Canon will be less distracted and more focused on the systems that matter, the systems for the true enthusiasts: The R System + RF lenses.

Where is the RF 35L f1.2????

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Canon sold millions of them, I guess they know something you don’t about selling cameras.

Personally, I believe in using the right tool for the job. Maybe I just don’t know how to pack effectively, but I find it difficult to fit my R3, 14-35/4, 28-70/2 and 70-200/2.8 in a carryon along with my clothes and sundries for a short trip. My M6II, M11-22 and M18-150 seem to fit better.

What boggles my mind is seeing many so-called experts who talk about having an eye for quality photos that fail to post a single example of their work, while claiming to know what gear everyone else should be using.

Oh well, that’s life on a forum. Nice handle, by the way. At least you have one way to get pleasure from all of your high-end lenses (unless those are ephemeral, too).

 

[LensSodomist]

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Canon sold millions of them, I guess they know something you don’t about selling cameras.

Personally, I believe in using the right tool for the job. Maybe I just don’t know how to pack effectively, but I find it difficult to fit my R3, 14-35/4, 28-70/2 and 70-200/2.8 in a carryon along with my clothes and sundries for a short trip. My M6II, M11-22 and M18-150 seem to fit better.

What boggles my mind is seeing many so-called experts who talk about having an eye for quality photos that fail to post a single example of their work, while claiming to know what gear everyone else should be using.

Oh well, that’s life on a forum. Nice handle, by the way. At least you have one way to get pleasure from all of your high-end lenses (unless those are ephemeral, too).

Yea, Canon was so smart that they just canceled their wonderful M. And they did sell a zillion of them to mostly casual shooters, grandpas, plumbers who want to make images at their daughter's birthday party, etc. Nothing wrong with that! But the M was never intended for enthusiasts who demand high qualities of their kit. So why did you buy into that inferior system? Oh, wait...it was weight savings!

Packing so many lenses for a trip might indicate a lack of planning on your part. So for you, it's all about packing weight, so then photography and quality are an afterthought?

We fly to Europe often, and I take my RF 28-70 f2, RF 35 f1.8, and depending on the venue, my RF 135L f1.8 and/or RF 16. I bring what I will need, so most of my RF lenses stay at home. You see, I bought my 12 RF lenses (and 5 EF) to use them, knowing that weight was part of the price of using the best kit. To bring instead an inferior system seems irrational to me.

What boggles my mind are those who equate the ability of a photographer with what images they post. There are far better metrics for sizing up abilities, and linking my flickr account here to show you my work would not change your mind.

I don't claim to be a great photographer, but I have received 6 million views of my images...I do not know what that means...I tend to ignore this.

 

[Loswr]

Yea, Canon was so smart that they just canceled their wonderful M. And they did sell a zillion of them to mostly casual shooters, grandpas, plumbers who want to make images at their daughter's birthday party, etc. Nothing wrong with that! But the M was never intended for enthusiasts who demand high qualities of their kit. So why did you buy into that inferior system? Oh, wait...it was weight savings!

No, size savings. Try reading. The phrase ‘fit in a carryon’ was a clue. Weight doesn’t bother me, I routinely shoot my R3 + 600/4 II handheld.

Packing so many lenses for a trip might indicate a lack of planning on your part. So for you, it's all about packing weight, so then photography and quality are an afterthought?

No, the point is to be able to get good quality images with a small kit for a short trip. By that I mean one or at most two days, anything longer and I’m checking a bag anyway.

This was from an overnight trip to London, taken with the M2 + M11-22. It’s a 2.5 s exposure at ISO 400 (camera on an GorillaPod wrapped around the railing of one of the Jubilee Bridges) and a FF camera would not have given better results.

We fly to Europe often, and I take my RF 28-70 f2, RF 35 f1.8, and depending on the venue, my RF 135L f1.8 and/or RF 16. I bring what I will need, so most of my RF lenses stay at home. You see, I bought my 12 RF lenses (and 5 EF) to use them, knowing that weight was part of the price of using the best kit. To bring instead an inferior system seems irrational to me.

Spent two weeks in Italy this summer, took my R8, RF 14-35/4L, RF 24-105/4L, RF 100-400, RF 24/1.4, RF 28/2.8, and TS-E 17/4L. All in my carryon, along with an extra 1 kg of batteries for scuba dive lights, a Mac laptop, change of clothes and some other small items.

Cameras are tools, and APS-C is capable of creating images as good as FF in some, but not all, conditions.

What boggles my mind are those who equate the ability of a photographer with what images they post. There are far better metrics for sizing up abilities, and linking my flickr account here to show you my work would not change your mind.

Oh, ok. Best you go back to playing with your lenses in your own, special way.

 

[Loswr]

If you are not able to create great pictures with a M camera (or any reasonably current camera), the problem is not the hardware.

It might be the hardware. Depends on how much…residue…is inside the lenses.

 

[EricN]

I don't claim to be a great photographer, but I have received 6 million views of my images...I do not know what that means...I tend to ignore this.

First, I love your screen name, but it does make me curious where you stow wildlife lenses.

Anyway, I couldn't find your photos. You wouldn't be by chance the type of person that has fun posting strange things then deletes everything?

 

[shining example]

I bought the EOS M back in 2014 because it was absurdly cheap and I wanted a smaller camera for when it wasn't worth lugging the 7D + L lenses about.

It was an odd little thing. It looked as if it would be difficult to hold, but it never once slipped out of my hands. It came with a tiny flash that ably combined the disadvantages of a pop-up flash (minimal power) with the disadvantages of an external flash (needing separate batteries). And, of course, everyone thought you were an idiot for buying it. But it was perfect for my purposes, I used it a fair bit and always enjoyed it. A couple of years later I upgraded to the M5 - even the guy in the camera shop tried to talk me out of it, telling me I could get a better camera for the same money. Which is probably true, but it was still the right camera for me (and by then I already had a bunch of M lenses, so there was that).

My only complaint is that the EVF on the M5 is shite - so shite that I was extremely wary of getting a bigger mirrorless when my trusty 7D started giving up the ghost last year. Lucikly, the guy in the camera shop managed to talk me into an R7, and I absolutely love it. But I'm definitely going to keep using the M5 when I want a smaller, lighter option.

 

[LensSodomist]

If you are not able to create great pictures with a M camera (or any reasonably current camera), the problem is not the hardware.

Also quite hilarious that you equate "many views on Flickr equals good pictures" while trashing fast food in the same post. I think judging by that metric McDonalds has to be the greatest place to eat on planet earth.

You missed the point. If one knows their stuff, they can make a great photograph with a 1968 Kodak Instamatic camera, but why? Your logic has flaws.

 

[LensSodomist]

First, I love your screen name, but it does make me curious where you stow wildlife lenses.

Anyway, I couldn't find your photos. You wouldn't be by chance the type of person that has fun posting strange things then deletes everything?

You cannot handle alternative views. Work on that...