Patent: A Few More Image Sensor Patents from Canon

[Mr1Dx]

Good to see nothing ever changes around here... :

Hey Jon, good to see you still visit to observe that nothing changes; it's the funny pages in a different format - luv it. Like a microcosm of the world and very entertaining. So how are the starry skies these days?

Jack

You would think at some point people would stop trying to convince each other of things they cannot be convinced of.

Anyway, stars:

VDB 27 and friends.

Visited your site, good works. Your 5D III is not a proper choice for this type of photography.

 

[jrista]

You would think at some point people would stop trying to convince each other of things they cannot be convinced of.

I still have a (possibly unfounded) hope that we can achieve mutual understanding, even if we don't convince each other.

So long as everyone roams around these forums insulting everyone else, mutual understanding is never going to happen. I don't post much here because the inevitable result of voicing one's opinions here is that you get insulted. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, whether you are pro canon or pro exmor or diversified in your opinions or anything like that...the only constant is that these are some of the most hostile forums in the photography world. If you hope for mutual understanding....well, I'd call that a misplaced hope, at best.

Very nice picture.

Thanks.

 

[jrista]

Visited your site, good works. Your 5D III is not a proper choice for this type of photography.

Um, no. It's a horrible camera for astrophotography. It's excessively noisy, particularly during summer (dark current becomes the primary noise contributor, and my 5D III cranks out 8-10 electrons per second per pixel...and I used 10-11 minute subs on the image I shared!) However I will state this. I have quite thoroughly conquered my 5D III for this purpose, and I have no qualms about stating I get some of the best results around with a Canon DSLR. I even get better results than some of the long-standing DSLR greats who have been doing this for as much as a decade or more.

I have been working on getting a monochrome CCD camera, but those things are just NOT cheap. Especially if you want something with a sensor as large as the 5D III sensor. The camera I want is usually $11,000. That's just the camera, you still need a filter wheel (about $2000-$2500). You also need filters. For larger filters, they cost about $1200 for a set of LRGB and about $1300 PER narrow band filter...and I'd need at least three (Ha, SII, and OIII). To handle such a camera, which weighs a good deal, you need scopes and focusers that are capable of handling that kind of load. A focuser that can handle it costs about $2200-$2400 (FeatherTouch). The cheapest scope that can handle it costs about $6000, minus the necessary accessories to get it properly flattened or reduced, and all the various mounting accessories. That brings the cost up by nearly another $5000.

That's a total cost of $31,650 or more to put together a 36x24mm or larger mono CCD imager and a scope that can handle it. Given that, I think I am WELL ahead of the curve with what I've been able to produce with my woefully inadequate 5D III and a Canon lens. (And I really do agree, it is a WOEFULLY inadequate camera for astrophotography...but I'm not about to let that stop me.)

 

[scyrene]

You would think at some point people would stop trying to convince each other of things they cannot be convinced of.

I still have a (possibly unfounded) hope that we can achieve mutual understanding, even if we don't convince each other.

So long as everyone roams around these forums insulting everyone else, mutual understanding is never going to happen. I don't post much here because the inevitable result of voicing one's opinions here is that you get insulted. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, whether you are pro canon or pro exmor or diversified in your opinions or anything like that...the only constant is that these are some of the most hostile forums in the photography world. If you hope for mutual understanding....well, I'd call that a misplaced hope, at best.

Very nice picture.

Thanks.

Well I've posted over 800 times and never been insulted. Mind you, I don't recall ever insulting anyone else either.

 

[Jack Douglas]

You would think at some point people would stop trying to convince each other of things they cannot be convinced of.

I still have a (possibly unfounded) hope that we can achieve mutual understanding, even if we don't convince each other.

I read CR for the humour! We're all different - if I was insulted it wouldn't matter anyway.

Still, some folk might consider being a little more considerate in their negative commentary directed towards others. You expect threads like this one to be a little more opinionated and passionate. I luv CR.

Jack



So long as everyone roams around these forums insulting everyone else, mutual understanding is never going to happen. I don't post much here because the inevitable result of voicing one's opinions here is that you get insulted. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, whether you are pro canon or pro exmor or diversified in your opinions or anything like that...the only constant is that these are some of the most hostile forums in the photography world. If you hope for mutual understanding....well, I'd call that a misplaced hope, at best.

Very nice picture.

Thanks.

Well I've posted over 800 times and never been insulted. Mind you, I don't recall ever insulting anyone else either.

 

[jrista]

You would think at some point people would stop trying to convince each other of things they cannot be convinced of.

I still have a (possibly unfounded) hope that we can achieve mutual understanding, even if we don't convince each other.

So long as everyone roams around these forums insulting everyone else, mutual understanding is never going to happen. I don't post much here because the inevitable result of voicing one's opinions here is that you get insulted. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, whether you are pro canon or pro exmor or diversified in your opinions or anything like that...the only constant is that these are some of the most hostile forums in the photography world. If you hope for mutual understanding....well, I'd call that a misplaced hope, at best.

Very nice picture.

Thanks.

Well I've posted over 800 times and never been insulted. Mind you, I don't recall ever insulting anyone else either.

Everyone was the wrong term. The people I'm talking about know who they are, I don't need to call them out.

 

[scyrene]

You would think at some point people would stop trying to convince each other of things they cannot be convinced of.

I still have a (possibly unfounded) hope that we can achieve mutual understanding, even if we don't convince each other.

So long as everyone roams around these forums insulting everyone else, mutual understanding is never going to happen. I don't post much here because the inevitable result of voicing one's opinions here is that you get insulted. It doesn't matter what your opinion is, whether you are pro canon or pro exmor or diversified in your opinions or anything like that...the only constant is that these are some of the most hostile forums in the photography world. If you hope for mutual understanding....well, I'd call that a misplaced hope, at best.

Very nice picture.

Thanks.

Well I've posted over 800 times and never been insulted. Mind you, I don't recall ever insulting anyone else either.

Everyone was the wrong term. The people I'm talking about know who they are, I don't need to call them out.

Lol ok. I know Incidentally, I have a few questions about astrophotography, but this is not the place. Your work is very good.

 

[sanj]

I'm a professional wedding, commercial and landscape photographer and I have just swapped wholesale from Canon to Nikon. That sounds like the start of a dirty confession, but I'll explain my reasons why.

I've spent the last two years shooting with a pair of 5D3's and more recently, a 6D and before that 5D2's and before that it was 5D Mark 1's. I had a complete collection of L series lenses (15mm fisheye, 16-35II, 24-70II, 70-200II, 85 1.2 II, 24-35-50mm sigma ART's, 600EXRT's-Basically a wedding, commercial or landscape photographers standard setup).

I've just swapped all the above for the equivalent Nikon kit (14-24, 85 1.4G being the only real differences) and bought myself a pair of Nikon D810's and a D750 for faster moments. I shot my first wedding on them last weekend and it has to be said that it's probably the best thing I've ever done.

The difference in image quality, dynamic range (I know that's a dirty phrase around here sometimes, but it makes a difference) and high ISO performance is amazing. The Nikons leave the Canons in the dust. I'm not just saying it because of the fairly major investment I've had to put into it either. I loved my Canon kit and have shot over 500,000 images on it reliably and without hassle over the last two years alone and didn't plan on making the swap. But then a friend of mine showed me the files he was getting from the D810 and I was blown away.

The files coming out of the D810 are superior in every important way, their lenses are so similar in performance that it's not worth arguing about and the autofocus (especially the 3D tracking) is leagues ahead compared to that of the 5D3’s, simple as that. And THIS is why Canon needs to catch up. I have no doubt that the 5D4 will be an amazing camera when it appears, but Nikon/Sony have raised the image quality bar to such a high standard that Canon really needs to beat it, or else there will surely be more working professionals like me making the jump, whether it be to the big N or to Fuji, Sony or A.N. Other mirrorless/mirrored brand (although I'm yet to meet anyone shooting weddings on Sony). I have to agree with CR Guy when he says that if there isn't a bit of a leap in performance then Canon's sales will start to suffer.

Compare the specs of the 6D to the D750 and try not to be impressed. These are meant to be cameras in a similar price bracket and are marketed towards similar demographic groups, but the D750 is just a thing of wonder. Smaller, lighter, flipping screen, MUCH better image quality, a better AF system than even the D4S, more comfortable to hold than the 6D and it only carries a fractional price difference over the 6D. And the D810 is just in a completely different league to the 5D3.

Halfway through the wedding last weekend I wondered if I'd made the right decision, as looking at the back of the camera it didn't look too different to what I'd been getting, but once I'd got the cards onto the computer it's was obvious just how much better the Nikons are. I'm not trying to say that everybody should jump ship if the 5D4 is a bit of a dud or if it comes out looking like Canon has ignored the wants and needs of its professional user base, as it's a massive leap to make-trust me, I was so comfortable using my Canons that I didn't need to look at the settings, my fingers just knew where to go to change stuff, and trying to learn a new system in a few days before a wedding was REALLY hard work. But the pictures that these camera allow me to produce now are better (not MASSIVELY, but noticeably) and Canon has to react to that, if nothing else.

Feel free to criticise my decision as I'm sure a lot of the hardcore CR forum members will do, but it's only my opinion and personal quest to get the best image quality possible within my own financial means and I'm very glad I've made the jump indeed. What do I miss? Smaller file sizes (storage is cheap), some of the lenses, (just because I like the look they give-85mm 1.2 being a case in point-hurry up Sigma!) and the 600EXRT system which will hopefully be replicated by Nikon with their SB5000, due out soon, if not, I can do the same with the pocket wizards I also purchased...

So there you have it, an over-long cautionary message to Canon that you're not indestructible and people will make the move if you rest on your laurels for too long.

Signed,
A former Canon Fanboy

You are not the only professional who has left Canon. I know of 4 others I can think of immediately. I personally love the 1dc to think otherwise.. Wait maybe a light Sony for travel. Lets see.

Canon, Sony, Nikon et al all offer different abilities within their systems. Since cameras came out people have swapped brands, had multiple brands and multiple format kits, it is nothing new. People hone down their abilities and preferences and realise what they have is not best for them.

There are many high profile users switching from Nikon to Canon, and some switching the other way, and some that are dropping both and going to Sony, I know one Nikon and two Canon shooters that have gone to Sony in the last six months, one Canon shooter switched back to Canon, so what.

Generalisations are difficult because they are, well, generalisations, but Sony make the best sensors and most limited AF and lens selections, if you shoot difficult lighting situations without the need for exotic lenses then Sony have a very compelling system. Canon and Nikon have 'better AF and lens selections, Canon's lens selection is unmatched and if you want the broadest range of exotic lenses and effortless radio flash then Canon wins, easily, but you really need to push that envelop a little, the 85 f1.2 on a 5DSR in a studio lighting environment is a thing of beauty that truthfully pushes to the boundaries of medium format IQ for a fraction of the price. Nikon fall some way between the two.

There is no stand out must have system that beats all others, the better photographers we become the more nuanced our gear choices, 35 f1.4L or 35 f2 IS for example (neither of which have a direct equal in any other system!). If Nikon, Sony or Canon serves you better then go for it. But there are people doing your job just as well with another brand because that suits them, personally, better.

In agreement.

 

[weixing]

Visited your site, good works. Your 5D III is not a proper choice for this type of photography.

Um, no. It's a horrible camera for astrophotography. It's excessively noisy, particularly during summer (dark current becomes the primary noise contributor, and my 5D III cranks out 8-10 electrons per second per pixel...and I used 10-11 minute subs on the image I shared!) However I will state this. I have quite thoroughly conquered my 5D III for this purpose, and I have no qualms about stating I get some of the best results around with a Canon DSLR. I even get better results than some of the long-standing DSLR greats who have been doing this for as much as a decade or more.

I have been working on getting a monochrome CCD camera, but those things are just NOT cheap. Especially if you want something with a sensor as large as the 5D III sensor. The camera I want is usually $11,000. That's just the camera, you still need a filter wheel (about $2000-$2500). You also need filters. For larger filters, they cost about $1200 for a set of LRGB and about $1300 PER narrow band filter...and I'd need at least three (Ha, SII, and OIII). To handle such a camera, which weighs a good deal, you need scopes and focusers that are capable of handling that kind of load. A focuser that can handle it costs about $2200-$2400 (FeatherTouch). The cheapest scope that can handle it costs about $6000, minus the necessary accessories to get it properly flattened or reduced, and all the various mounting accessories. That brings the cost up by nearly another $5000.

That's a total cost of $31,650 or more to put together a 36x24mm or larger mono CCD imager and a scope that can handle it. Given that, I think I am WELL ahead of the curve with what I've been able to produce with my woefully inadequate 5D III and a Canon lens. (And I really do agree, it is a WOEFULLY inadequate camera for astrophotography...but I'm not about to let that stop me.)

Hi,
This is what my friend do to his Canon 5D2(2 stage peltier and liquid cooling) when he want to get the most of it for Astrophotography:
http://www.singastro.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12236

Have a nice day.

 

[jrista]

I actually have a similar project going on to build a cooler for my DSLRs. I've got most of the parts, however I am building a more specific design that I can actually bolt into the tripod thread on the bottom of the camera. That is actually the only metal contact to the inside of the camera body, and I would like to be able to add and remove the cooler without having to disassemble it. I am working on a cold plate design that will have a set of gears, one soldered to the mounting screw, that can be controlled from the outside edge of the cold plate. To get that working properly, I need to have the cold plate custom machined, and I need to get the right gears to make it work properly. I'll also need to find the best way to solder a cap on top of the machined cold plate without losing the heat transfer efficiency of copper. Anyway, coolers like that are common in the astro world. Mine just ended up being a bit overly ambitious, and I haven't had much time to work on it. I plan to have it ready by the end of next spring, though.

You can only cool so much with a DSLR though. Cool too much, and you'll get condensation on the sensor, which aside from ruining the sub exposure, can fry the electronics too.

 

[weixing]

I actually have a similar project going on to build a cooler for my DSLRs. I've got most of the parts, however I am building a more specific design that I can actually bolt into the tripod thread on the bottom of the camera. That is actually the only metal contact to the inside of the camera body, and I would like to be able to add and remove the cooler without having to disassemble it. I am working on a cold plate design that will have a set of gears, one soldered to the mounting screw, that can be controlled from the outside edge of the cold plate. To get that working properly, I need to have the cold plate custom machined, and I need to get the right gears to make it work properly. I'll also need to find the best way to solder a cap on top of the machined cold plate without losing the heat transfer efficiency of copper. Anyway, coolers like that are common in the astro world. Mine just ended up being a bit overly ambitious, and I haven't had much time to work on it. I plan to have it ready by the end of next spring, though.

You can only cool so much with a DSLR though. Cool too much, and you'll get condensation on the sensor, which aside from ruining the sub exposure, can fry the electronics too.

Hi,
May be you can explore what my friend did for his 450D (he mod many of his Canon DSLR)... he recirculated air using an aquarium pump and remove the moisture by pumping the air through a housing full of silica: http://www.singastro.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10936

Have a nice day.

 

[Jack Douglas]

I actually have a similar project going on to build a cooler for my DSLRs. I've got most of the parts, however I am building a more specific design that I can actually bolt into the tripod thread on the bottom of the camera. That is actually the only metal contact to the inside of the camera body, and I would like to be able to add and remove the cooler without having to disassemble it. I am working on a cold plate design that will have a set of gears, one soldered to the mounting screw, that can be controlled from the outside edge of the cold plate. To get that working properly, I need to have the cold plate custom machined, and I need to get the right gears to make it work properly. I'll also need to find the best way to solder a cap on top of the machined cold plate without losing the heat transfer efficiency of copper. Anyway, coolers like that are common in the astro world. Mine just ended up being a bit overly ambitious, and I haven't had much time to work on it. I plan to have it ready by the end of next spring, though.

You can only cool so much with a DSLR though. Cool too much, and you'll get condensation on the sensor, which aside from ruining the sub exposure, can fry the electronics too.

Hey Jon,

You probably recall some of my fabrication shots. Too bad I'm not closer to you. Fun isn't it. My only caution is don't get old while these projects get put on hold! In this regard I'm an expert, believe me, and then at some point one's assumed health doesn't always go the way one would wish. I still have maybe 15 classic cars to restore, yeah, sure - LOL.

I admire your tenacity, energy and dedication.

Jack