Patent: A Few More Image Sensor Patents from Canon

[bdunbar79]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

As a sports shooter I have to ask:

What??

 

[George D.]

So we're talking about 30fps hi-res movie mode at 1/100sec max each. I'm interested more in what's possible out of this rumor.

 

[msm]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

George, you are missing the shutter speed out of your equations. Video is slow at 1/50-1/100 sec per frame, sports stills need 1/500 to not get blur. The two are incompatible.

There is absolutely nothing preventing faster exposures with video. The real problem would be rolling shutter and compression. It would take either an extremely fast readout to scan an 8k image as fast as a mechanical shutter or a global shutter to avoid rolling shutter issues. And preferably some sort of raw video to avoid the heavy compression.

But I wouldnt be surprised to see mirrorless cameras use something like this to challenge the DSLRs in their last niche soon (sports / wildlife / fast action), stacked sensors should help.

 

[privatebydesign]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

George, you are missing the shutter speed out of your equations. Video is slow at 1/50-1/100 sec per frame, sports stills need 1/500 to not get blur. The two are incompatible.

There is absolutely nothing preventing faster exposures with video. The real problem would be rolling shutter and compression. It would take either an extremely fast readout to scan an 8k image as fast as a mechanical shutter or a global shutter to avoid rolling shutter issues. And preferably some sort of raw video to avoid the heavy compression.

But I wouldnt be surprised to see mirrorless cameras use something like this to challenge the DSLRs in their last niche soon (sports / wildlife / fast action), stacked sensors should help.

There is nothing physically to prevent it, but look at the reasons why video uses long shutter speeds, they want he blur to make the images appear seamless to our eye.

https://vimeo.com/blog/post/frame-rate-vs-shutter-speed-setting-the-record-str

 

[msm]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

George, you are missing the shutter speed out of your equations. Video is slow at 1/50-1/100 sec per frame, sports stills need 1/500 to not get blur. The two are incompatible.

There is absolutely nothing preventing faster exposures with video. The real problem would be rolling shutter and compression. It would take either an extremely fast readout to scan an 8k image as fast as a mechanical shutter or a global shutter to avoid rolling shutter issues. And preferably some sort of raw video to avoid the heavy compression.

But I wouldnt be surprised to see mirrorless cameras use something like this to challenge the DSLRs in their last niche soon (sports / wildlife / fast action), stacked sensors should help.

There is nothing physically to prevent it, but look at the reasons why video uses long shutter speeds, they want he blur to make the images appear seamless to our eye.

https://vimeo.com/blog/post/frame-rate-vs-shutter-speed-setting-the-record-str

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

 

[Loswr]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

I think you're missing the point that the optimal shutter speed for high quality video is not generally adequate to freeze action. The ability to extract blurry frames from 30 fps video won't be changing anyone's game. Well, if you take that convenient route at the wedding you mention, the bride's lawsuit might change your game.

Of course, you could shoot video at high shutter speed for the sole purpose of extracting still frames (meaning the video quality would be crap), and in that case by the time you'd uncompressed the video file for frame-by-frame extraction, picked your key image from the race finish and submitted it...the 80 other photogs shooting at 10-12 fps on a D4s or 1D X have already uploaded their jpg file and your editor has fired you for not getting the shot submitted in a timely manner. Also not game changing.

The 8 MP extracted from 4K is plenty for most press uses – how many sports photogs do you see shooting video from the sidelines to extract stills? I'd wager the answer is none, and 8K won't change that.

 

[Proscribo]

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

I think we do that already. It's called continuous shooting, burst, whatever.

 

[privatebydesign]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

George, you are missing the shutter speed out of your equations. Video is slow at 1/50-1/100 sec per frame, sports stills need 1/500 to not get blur. The two are incompatible.

There is absolutely nothing preventing faster exposures with video. The real problem would be rolling shutter and compression. It would take either an extremely fast readout to scan an 8k image as fast as a mechanical shutter or a global shutter to avoid rolling shutter issues. And preferably some sort of raw video to avoid the heavy compression.

But I wouldnt be surprised to see mirrorless cameras use something like this to challenge the DSLRs in their last niche soon (sports / wildlife / fast action), stacked sensors should help.

There is nothing physically to prevent it, but look at the reasons why video uses long shutter speeds, they want he blur to make the images appear seamless to our eye.

https://vimeo.com/blog/post/frame-rate-vs-shutter-speed-setting-the-record-str

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

See neuro's answer below.

 

[bdunbar79]

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

I think we do that already. It's called continuous shooting, burst, whatever.

+1

I have to add another comment. Obviously some individuals on here have never shot sports for organizations. You only have so much time and why in the heck would I want to move to a slower process, much slower, when I already can fire off 12-14 fps, upload to my laptop, pick the photo and send? I can literally have a shot to the editor or SID in less than 5 minutes from shutter firing.

 

[msm]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

George, you are missing the shutter speed out of your equations. Video is slow at 1/50-1/100 sec per frame, sports stills need 1/500 to not get blur. The two are incompatible.

There is absolutely nothing preventing faster exposures with video. The real problem would be rolling shutter and compression. It would take either an extremely fast readout to scan an 8k image as fast as a mechanical shutter or a global shutter to avoid rolling shutter issues. And preferably some sort of raw video to avoid the heavy compression.

But I wouldnt be surprised to see mirrorless cameras use something like this to challenge the DSLRs in their last niche soon (sports / wildlife / fast action), stacked sensors should help.

There is nothing physically to prevent it, but look at the reasons why video uses long shutter speeds, they want he blur to make the images appear seamless to our eye.

https://vimeo.com/blog/post/frame-rate-vs-shutter-speed-setting-the-record-str

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

See neuro's answer below.

Yeah and as usual he has no vision past current Canon DSLRs. If they want to make a camera like this, they can easily make the firmware extract the stills for you automatically so you can extract the stills and upload them just as you would single images. That is just a question of a suitable storage format, a little processing power and trivial software implementation.

 

[msm]

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

I think we do that already. It's called continuous shooting, burst, whatever.

Yeah except that you can accomplish several times the burst rate in a much smaller camera which can also be cheaper to produce, and without mirrors and shutters spitting oil all over your mirror box and sensors and getting worn out.

 

[George D.]

Well I can't vouch the future of dSLR is a super-zoom and a killer movie mode but movie mode is indeed getting a lot of attention lately.

 

[PureClassA]

I've never seen how the whole "extract frames from video for stills" thing ever got to be a "thing". Sure in perfectly controlled applications it works ok when time is not of the essence (like film production). But as it's been said, if you're shooting standard FPS of 24 or 30 (film or video) then your shutter speeds are going to be 1/50th or 1/60th of a second. Great for film and video, not so great for stills. The only feasible way to get around this is to shoot slo-mo 120FPS where your shutter should be at 1/250th a second, but then you have to work around the issue in post if you didn't want slo-mo. And the video cameras that can faithfully capture at those speeds in 4k or even HD are not cheap. If you're really trying to stop fast action then 1/500th per second is more ideal and for that you need to be shooting 240FPS slo-mo (again, provided you want GOOD video/film results and not shooting exclusively to extract stills) .... ok to get those speeds, you're talking ARRI stuff at 4k or beyond at the price of a Mercedes Benz SUV. This is why a stills camera like a 1DX (which is now priced at a damn steal) at 12-14FPS and super accurate AF is still clearly the superior option (in addition to the mere seconds it takes to have a finished product out the camera and available for use)

 

[PureClassA]

As for the original post. it's exciting to say the least to see this stuff spilling out of Canon at the same time. We know how tight lipped they are with models like the 1DX2, so perhaps they waited as long as they could to file the patents on what could be matured technology ready for market. PERHAPS. Not making any bets here just yet. But I suppose it wouldn't surprise me at this point.

 

[bdunbar79]

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

I think we do that already. It's called continuous shooting, burst, whatever.

Yeah except that you can accomplish several times the burst rate in a much smaller camera which can also be cheaper to produce, and without mirrors and shutters spitting oil all over your mirror box and sensors and getting worn out.

Nikon had the oil problem, not Canon.

 

[msm]

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

I think we do that already. It's called continuous shooting, burst, whatever.

Yeah except that you can accomplish several times the burst rate in a much smaller camera which can also be cheaper to produce, and without mirrors and shutters spitting oil all over your mirror box and sensors and getting worn out.

Nikon had the oil problem, not Canon.

Well maybe you missed the 1DX recall and the countless threads from people complaining about it even after getting it back from service.

 

[George D.]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

I think you're missing the point that the optimal shutter speed for high quality video is not generally adequate to freeze action. The ability to extract blurry frames from 30 fps video won't be changing anyone's game. Well, if you take that convenient route at the wedding you mention, the bride's lawsuit might change your game.

Of course, you could shoot video at high shutter speed for the sole purpose of extracting still frames (meaning the video quality would be crap), and in that case by the time you'd uncompressed the video file for frame-by-frame extraction, picked your key image from the race finish and submitted it...the 80 other photogs shooting at 10-12 fps on a D4s or 1D X have already uploaded their jpg file and your editor has fired you for not getting the shot submitted in a timely manner. Also not game changing.

The 8 MP extracted from 4K is plenty for most press uses – how many sports photogs do you see shooting video from the sidelines to extract stills? I'd wager the answer is none, and 8K won't change that.

Makes sense. Let's see how this evolves though. I think we have a lot more to see.

 

[bdunbar79]

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

I think we do that already. It's called continuous shooting, burst, whatever.

Yeah except that you can accomplish several times the burst rate in a much smaller camera which can also be cheaper to produce, and without mirrors and shutters spitting oil all over your mirror box and sensors and getting worn out.

Nikon had the oil problem, not Canon.

Well maybe you missed the 1DX recall and the countless threads from people complaining about it even after getting it back from service.

I guess so. I did miss that, but I sure didn't miss the D600 fiasco and Nikon's public statement setting aside $17.7 million to repair D600 units and restoring it's reputation. That was harder to miss.

Anyways, I'd be totally open to MILC if the AF matched the 1Dx. Anyone would. But shooting video and extracting stills in place of what we have now is asinine at best, that is really my only point. I have nothing against MILC.

My earlier point in another thread (not directed at you) was that Canon certainly has a ton of R&D going on and these patents simply prove that. If you can think of it, Canon already has and already has thought of things that you haven't and is already working on them. I think what is frustrating some people is the implementation of these technologies into products that they can buy.

 

[PureClassA]

No, you can't get an effectively higher burst rate by shooting video at 30fps and proper video shutter speed be damned.

1DX stills = 18MP RAW

4k @ 30FPS = 8.8MP compressed

1080p @ 30FPS = 2.2MP compressed

Want 120 FPS? Ok. Most cameras have to step down to 720p. That's what, like 1.5MB?

So sure, you can snag a lot more "pictures" using video mode so long as you don't care that you're generating an image that's about 50% - 90% smaller... No thanks.

If your goal is to make pleasant video sure. I thought the idea discussed here was to make stills from video though, in which case you can use fast shutter speed to make sharp still images.

I think we do that already. It's called continuous shooting, burst, whatever.

Yeah except that you can accomplish several times the burst rate in a much smaller camera which can also be cheaper to produce, and without mirrors and shutters spitting oil all over your mirror box and sensors and getting worn out.

Nikon had the oil problem, not Canon.

 

[Loswr]

Yeah and as usual he has no vision past current Canon DSLRs. If they want to make a camera like this, they can easily make the firmware extract the stills for you automatically so you can extract the stills and upload them just as you would single images. That is just a question of a suitable storage format, a little processing power and trivial software implementation.

Yeah and as usual you fail to consider practical realities. It's so trivial it's been done with 1080p and 4K already, right? More importantly, as usual you ignore the reality of business. Even if it's trivial to do from a technical standpoint, it's not worth doing if there's no consumer demand. You can use the current implementation and extensive availability of on-board still frame extraction from 1080p and 4K video to gauge that demand.