Patent: A Few More Image Sensor Patents from Canon

[YuengLinger]

Canon may be at a dead end with their current R&D, which is the real issue we are facing--not sales history.

 

[Orangutan]

Canon may be at a dead end with their current R&D, which is the real issue we are facing--not sales history.

Sure, could well be true; however, we have no knowledge of that. It's also possible that Sony is at the dead end with their current R&D, and what they have on the market is all they have. All we really know is what they show us.

Again, you may well be right, as might CR Guy. My original objection to his statement is its certainty: we really don't know what the market will demand from the next round of bodies, and we certainly can't extrapolate from the few vocal opinions on camera forums. All I can say is that if I were inclined to bet, I would not bet against Canon's profitability, which is not the same thing as betting on their future Dx'oh! scores.

 

[Loswr]

Canon may be at a dead end with their current R&D, which is the real issue we are facing--not sales history.

Given the topic – sensor-related patents filed by Canon 1.5 years ago – I wonder if you have any evidence to corroborate your statement.

Beyond just sensors, given that Canon typically has >2,000 patents granted every year, a blanket statement like the above is pretty silly.

 

[bdunbar79]

Canon may be at a dead end with their current R&D, which is the real issue we are facing--not sales history.

I was waiting for this. I work for a company that does nothing but R&D with materials for electronics and imaging companies, including big imaging companies. To say that Canon is at a dead-end with their R&D is totally and completely wrong. 100% wrong. And this is the problem. We have a bunch of people on here who don't have facts or when they get the facts, they still ignore them. I think THAT's the real problem.

 

[bdunbar79]

Canon's sensor technology is beginning to look like Tom Cruise, an aging film star with less earning potential each year!

Again, FACTS and STATISTICS would 100% disagree with you here.

 

[YuengLinger]

Canon may be at a dead end with their current R&D, which is the real issue we are facing--not sales history.

I was waiting for this. I work for a company that does nothing but R&D with materials for electronics and imaging companies, including big imaging companies. To say that Canon is at a dead-end with their R&D is totally and completely wrong. 100% wrong. And this is the problem. We have a bunch of people on here who don't have facts or when they get the facts, they still ignore them. I think THAT's the real problem.

Supposition, not a statement.

The shared anxiety stems from Canon showing little improvement in shadow and lower light performance since the release of the 5DII.

Huffing and puffing can't blow this truth down, but a better sensor could!

 

[pj1974]

Canon's sensor technology is beginning to look like Tom Cruise, an aging film star with less earning potential each year!

Again, FACTS and STATISTICS would 100% disagree with you here.

Some stats / facts

http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/celeb/actors/tom-cruise-net-worth/

N.B. a closer look indicates his earnings go up and down.

Peace y'all! Happy photography everyone! 8)

 

[Loswr]

The shared anxiety stems from Canon showing little improvement in shadow and lower light improvements since the release of the 5DII.

Shared by whom? :

What horrible cataclysm in Canon's dSLR sales has been brought about by this supposed 'problem' you seem so anxious about? If, in your opinion, other manufacturers have shown significant shadow and lower light improvements, has that translated to significant gains in market share at the Canon's expense?

Oh, by the way, my 1D X gives me at least 3 more usable stops of higher ISO than my 5DII – that seems like a pretty significant 'lower light improvement' to me. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of your opinions.

 

[YuengLinger]

The shared anxiety stems from Canon showing little improvement in shadow and lower light improvements since the release of the 5DII.

Shared by whom? :

What horrible cataclysm in Canon's dSLR sales has been brought about by this supposed 'problem' you seem so anxious about? If, in your opinion, other manufacturers have shown significant shadow and lower light improvements, has that translated to significant gains in market share at the Canon's expense?

Oh, by the way, my 1D X gives me at least 3 more usable stops of higher ISO than my 5DII – that seems like a pretty significant 'lower light improvement' to me. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of your opinions.

Please share some tests that show the 1DX has a 3 stop improvement at a given ISO.

 

[YellowJersey]

Wow, an awful lot of butthurt in this thread. Let's face facts, at the very least there's a perception that Canon's sensors are old tech. Even if this isn't a tech problem, it's an image problem. Canon seems to have stuck its fingers in its ears and largely refused to acknowledge that the market has changed.

I really don't understand the ferocity of brand loyalty. This doesn't just apply to Canon, btw (I'm looking at you, Apple fans). Criticising Canon is not an attack on you. And whenever someone puts a product out for sale, it demands to be criticised. If Canon really is the market leader, then its products should be unambiguously superior, and that's not the case. They're not necessarily inferior, but when a company stops innovating, usurpers move in. I feel like Canon's innovation has slowed, and companies like Sony and Panasonic have moved in the provide photographers and videographers with the products that Canon isn't, or isn't providing at a reasonable price. Even if Canon's sensors aren't as bad as the detractors say, that's no excuse for Canon not putting out better.

We must always demand better, even if better isn't necessarily, er, necessary. This is a cut throat market and Canon can't afford to let its guard down. After all, it's hard to get to the top, but even harder to stay there.

 

[scyrene]

Wow, an awful lot of butthurt in this thread. Let's face facts, at the very least there's a perception that Canon's sensors are old tech. Even if this isn't a tech problem, it's an image problem. Canon seems to have stuck its fingers in its ears and largely refused to acknowledge that the market has changed.

I really don't understand the ferocity of brand loyalty. This doesn't just apply to Canon, btw (I'm looking at you, Apple fans). Criticising Canon is not an attack on you. And whenever someone puts a product out for sale, it demands to be criticised. If Canon really is the market leader, then its products should be unambiguously superior, and that's not the case. They're not necessarily inferior, but when a company stops innovating, usurpers move in. I feel like Canon's innovation has slowed, and companies like Sony and Panasonic have moved in the provide photographers and videographers with the products that Canon isn't, or isn't providing at a reasonable price. Even if Canon's sensors aren't as bad as the detractors say, that's no excuse for Canon not putting out better.

We must always demand better, even if better isn't necessarily, er, necessary. This is a cut throat market and Canon can't afford to let its guard down. After all, it's hard to get to the top, but even harder to stay there.

You've read this thread as 'butthurt' brand loyalists getting upset?

The same old suspects are talking about the same old thing - the sensor issue. Nobody has contested it. Others have - with some grace and civility, and a few facts - shown it's not causing any trouble for the company's market share, which was the original contention.

The market leader's products should be unambiguously superior? Even if you could establish an objective measure of superiority, in what other field is this true? Are the biggest restaurant chains and supermarkets, or car manufacturers providing the best products? Or is marketing and business strategy more important?

 

[Don Haines]

The shared anxiety stems from Canon showing little improvement in shadow and lower light improvements since the release of the 5DII.

Shared by whom? :

What horrible cataclysm in Canon's dSLR sales has been brought about by this supposed 'problem' you seem so anxious about? If, in your opinion, other manufacturers have shown significant shadow and lower light improvements, has that translated to significant gains in market share at the Canon's expense?

Oh, by the way, my 1D X gives me at least 3 more usable stops of higher ISO than my 5DII – that seems like a pretty significant 'lower light improvement' to me. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of your opinions.

Please share some tests that show the 1DX has a 3 stop improvement at a given ISO.

With read noise, the 1DX has 1.2 (e-) and the 5DII has 3.0(e-) and beats every Nikon except the 7100 at 1.1(e-) and every Sony except the A7S at 0.4(e-).... that's about 1 1/2 stops cleaner at the bottom end....

The quantum efficiency of the 1DX is 48% while the 5D2 is 31%.... there's about 1/2 of a stop more signal at the top end....

There's 2 stops of performance increase with just two factors.....

The 5D2 is rated for ISO 100-6400. The 1DX is rated for ISO 100-51,200. There's your 3 stops of improvement.

However, if you are really looking for a camera for low light, you should take a long serious look at the Sony A7S... It has the lowest read noise of ANY DSLR or mirrorless, and with a relatively high quantum efficiency of 65% and larger pixels (only 12Mpixels) it generates over twice the signal per pixel as the 1DX. While the top extended ISO for the 1DX is only? 204,800 the A7S tops out at ISO 409600....

But remember, this is comparing an old camera with a new one... When the 1DX2 comes out, we can expect better QE than the 59% of the 7D2, and that cuts the gap to about a half stop....

 

[dak723]

And whenever someone puts a product out for sale, it demands to be criticised.

Demands to be criticized?? How about enjoying the product, or isn't that why you got it on the first place? Apparently people buy things now with the intent to criticize. if you don't see something wrong with this attitude, I feel sorry for you.

We must always demand better, even if better isn't necessarily, er, necessary. This is a cut throat market and Canon can't afford to let its guard down. After all, it's hard to get to the top, but even harder to stay there.

You have no right to demand anything. Canon is allowed to do what they feel is best for their company. If you don't like Canon products, then buy someone else's. If Canon loses market share and falls to number three, why do you care? I couldn't care less. As a backup camera, I have an Olympus. Do I care that they aren't the market leader? Not one bit.

When I look for a new camera, I compare the images from various brands if possible. The most important things to me are color, contrast and a tonal curve that separates light and shadow. For those reasons, I chose Canon (not because of any brand loyalty, I have owned other brands and probably will again). I suppose if I were a Sony customer and had the same attitude as you I would demand an optical viewfinder, better color and certainly better ergonomics. How dare they (or any company) not give me what I want. Whaaa, whaaa whaaa. Maybe what you want isn't what others want.

 

[YellowJersey]

Wow, an awful lot of butthurt in this thread. Let's face facts, at the very least there's a perception that Canon's sensors are old tech. Even if this isn't a tech problem, it's an image problem. Canon seems to have stuck its fingers in its ears and largely refused to acknowledge that the market has changed.

I really don't understand the ferocity of brand loyalty. This doesn't just apply to Canon, btw (I'm looking at you, Apple fans). Criticising Canon is not an attack on you. And whenever someone puts a product out for sale, it demands to be criticised. If Canon really is the market leader, then its products should be unambiguously superior, and that's not the case. They're not necessarily inferior, but when a company stops innovating, usurpers move in. I feel like Canon's innovation has slowed, and companies like Sony and Panasonic have moved in the provide photographers and videographers with the products that Canon isn't, or isn't providing at a reasonable price. Even if Canon's sensors aren't as bad as the detractors say, that's no excuse for Canon not putting out better.

We must always demand better, even if better isn't necessarily, er, necessary. This is a cut throat market and Canon can't afford to let its guard down. After all, it's hard to get to the top, but even harder to stay there.

You've read this thread as 'butthurt' brand loyalists getting upset?

The same old suspects are talking about the same old thing - the sensor issue. Nobody has contested it. Others have - with some grace and civility, and a few facts - shown it's not causing any trouble for the company's market share, which was the original contention.

The market leader's products should be unambiguously superior? Even if you could establish an objective measure of superiority, in what other field is this true? Are the biggest restaurant chains and supermarkets, or car manufacturers providing the best products? Or is marketing and business strategy more important?

It's the effort that people go to justify Canon's actions rather than demanding better that bewilders me. Just because it's good for Canon, doesn't necessarily mean it's good for us. Canon is not your friend. It's not your enemy, but it's not your friend. Canon is like a stripper: it doesn't actually like you, it just pretends to so that you give it your money.

 

[YellowJersey]

And whenever someone puts a product out for sale, it demands to be criticised.

Demands to be criticized?? How about enjoying the product, or isn't that why you got it on the first place? Apparently people buy things now with the intent to criticize. if you don't see something wrong with this attitude, I feel sorry for you.

We must always demand better, even if better isn't necessarily, er, necessary. This is a cut throat market and Canon can't afford to let its guard down. After all, it's hard to get to the top, but even harder to stay there.

You have no right to demand anything. Canon is allowed to do what they feel is best for their company. If you don't like Canon products, then buy someone else's. If Canon loses market share and falls to number three, why do you care? I couldn't care less. As a backup camera, I have an Olympus. Do I care that they aren't the market leader? Not one bit.

When I look for a new camera, I compare the images from various brands if possible. The most important things to me are color, contrast and a tonal curve that separates light and shadow. For those reasons, I chose Canon (not because of any brand loyalty, I have owned other brands and probably will again). I suppose if I were a Sony customer and had the same attitude as you I would demand an optical viewfinder, better color and certainly better ergonomics. How dare they (or any company) not give me what I want. Whaaa, whaaa whaaa. Maybe what you want isn't what others want.

Does a product demand to be criticised the instant it is on the market? Absolutely. It's positive and negative qualities should be discussed. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as reviews and this forum would not exist. That doesn't stop you from enjoying the product. I love my 5DmkIII, but nothing is perfect, and this camera is certainly no exception. I didn't buy it with the intent to criticise it, but I'm going to criticise it. "Criticise" does not mean "insult." You can love something while still acknowledging that it's no perfect. I enjoy my Canon, but want better.

I absolutely have a right to demand better, but don't have a right for Canon to provide. If Canon wants to keep me as a customer, it will have to provide better. That's kind of how it works. I demand what I want. If Canon provides, it gets my money. If it doesn't, I give my money to someone else who does.

Nothing gets better without coming to terms with its faults or without people demanding more. It's this attitude that "Canon can do no wrong, it's products are perfect, so just shut up" that drives me up the wall. If the response to criticism is "shut up and enjoy the product" then this isn't a discussion forum, it's just an advertisement that Canon didn't have to pay for.

 

[YuengLinger]

What's missing, glaringly, from this thread, is any prediction of better performance in the 5DIV.

Where is the optimism?

 

[YellowJersey]

What's missing, glaringly, from this thread, is any prediction of better performance in the 5DIV.

Where is the optimism?

Where is the optimism? Apparently buried under people telling others to shut up when anyone says that Canon's sensors need/should be improved.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the mkIV. The 7DmkII and 5Ds/r seem to indicate that Canon's sensors are starting to get better.

 

[Orangutan]

Wow

First, thanks for keeping your comments civil, even though I disagree with much of what you wrote.

You seem to have completely misread what has been said in this thread. No one is exhibiting ferocious, or even tepid, fan loyalty. If you disagree, go back through the thread and pick out specific examples where someone has made untrue positive assertions about Canon.

Let's face facts, at the very least there's a perception that Canon's sensors are old tech.

There is, but only among a very small number of people. I happen to be one of them, but my individual perceptions are irrelevant to Canon.

Canon seems to have stuck its fingers in its ears and largely refused to acknowledge that the market has changed.

Product lines have changed, but Canon continues to out-sell the competition. While Canon may not be selling the product that you or I want, they are selling products that make them gobs of money. Any corporation would make the same choice: making lots of money selling "old" tech is better than making little money selling new tech.

I really don't understand the ferocity of brand loyalty.

Have you seen it in this thread? If so, please cite an example of a person making false supportive statement about Canon.

Criticising Canon is not an attack on you.

You've misread the thread: I haven't seen anyone here who's personally offended by true statements, even negative ones, about Canon. I'm annoyed by people who extrapolate their personal preferences (even those that agree with mine) to the market as a whole. The fact that you or I want better sensors or enthusiast-level mirrorless offerings is not important to any company unless it's in quantities large enough to drive the market.

And whenever someone puts a product out for sale, it demands to be criticised.

Sure, that's no problem at all. First criticism: Canon sensors have (generally) worse low-ISO DR and shadow noise than Sonikon. What's the next one?

If Canon really is the market leader, then its products should be unambiguously superior

100% false: "market leader" means exactly one thing: selling the most product. Earlier this year, Volkswagen overtook Toyota to become the #1 selling (i.e. "market leader") in the world. Would you say they were unambiguously the best cars? Maybe Volvo or Mercedes-Benz is a better vehicle? The notion that there can be a single camera brand that's unambiguously best at all things is not viable.

but when a company stops innovating, usurpers move in.

That hasn't happened yet, which is the point Neuro keeps making with the sales charts. The supposedly-superior products of Sony, Nikon, et. al. are NOT allowing the usurpers to "move in."

I feel like Canon's innovation has slowed, and companies like Sony and Panasonic have moved in the provide photographers and videographers with the products that Canon isn't, or isn't providing at a reasonable price.

That's great! There's no problem at all with that, I applaud it!

Even if Canon's sensors aren't as bad as the detractors say, that's no excuse for Canon not putting out better.

You keep forgetting that Canon is a business, not a performance artist or athlete: they're not in the business of "putting out better," they're in the business of "bringing in more money." If they can bring in more money with older tech they will do so, whether we like it or not.

We must always demand better, even if better isn't necessarily, er, necessary.

Again, unless "we" are a large enough group to affect Canon sales, "our" opinions are unimportant.

This is a cut throat market and Canon can't afford to let its guard down.

It seems a fair assumption that Canon knows this better than any of us.

After all, it's hard to get to the top, but even harder to stay there.

But somehow Canon has managed to stay there for 11 years.

Summary: be careful not to confuse the camera that you want with the camera that makes money for Canon. This is a business, nothing more.

Cheers.

 

[Orangutan]

Just because it's good for Canon, doesn't necessarily mean it's good for us. Canon is not your friend. It's not your enemy, but it's not your friend. Canon is like a stripper: it doesn't actually like you, it just pretends to so that you give it your money.

That's exactly the point I've been trying to make. Stop thinking of Canon as your friend, and instead think of them as a money-making business. Once you come to peace with that everything gets easier. My only goal in this thread is to convey to the anti-Canon crowd the idea that you've eloquently stated above. I'm tired of reading broken-hearted posts from people who really want to fall in love and have a meaningful relationship with Canon.

 

[Loswr]

Just because it's good for Canon, doesn't necessarily mean it's good for us. Canon is not your friend. It's not your enemy, but it's not your friend. Canon is like a stripper: it doesn't actually like you, it just pretends to so that you give it your money.

That's exactly the point I've been trying to make. Stop thinking of Canon as your friend, and instead think of them as a money-making business. Once you come to peace with that everything gets easier. My only goal in this thread is to convey to the anti-Canon crowd the idea that you've eloquently stated above. I'm tired of reading broken-hearted posts from people who really want to fall in love and have a meaningful relationship with Canon.

Been saying this for years, but people will go on 'threatening' to switch brands and claiming doom unless Canon makes a camera to meet their specific needs, regardless of all evidence to the contrary.