Patent: A Few More Image Sensor Patents from Canon

[Jack Douglas]

Canon may be at a dead end with their current R&D, which is the real issue we are facing--not sales history.

I was waiting for this. I work for a company that does nothing but R&D with materials for electronics and imaging companies, including big imaging companies. To say that Canon is at a dead-end with their R&D is totally and completely wrong. 100% wrong. And this is the problem. We have a bunch of people on here who don't have facts or when they get the facts, they still ignore them. I think THAT's the real problem.

Precisely, not to mention wannabe fortune tellers!

Jack

 

[unfocused]

Just because it's good for Canon, doesn't necessarily mean it's good for us. Canon is not your friend. It's not your enemy, but it's not your friend. Canon is like a stripper: it doesn't actually like you, it just pretends to so that you give it your money.

That's exactly the point I've been trying to make. Stop thinking of Canon as your friend, and instead think of them as a money-making business. Once you come to peace with that everything gets easier. My only goal in this thread is to convey to the anti-Canon crowd the idea that you've eloquently stated above. I'm tired of reading broken-hearted posts from people who really want to fall in love and have a meaningful relationship with Canon.

Been saying this for years, but people will go on 'threatening' to switch brands and claiming doom unless Canon makes a camera to meet their specific needs, regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

There seem to be many people on this forum who believe that Canon is their enemy. They take it very personally that Canon has made business decisions that do not necessarily reflect their wishes. I guess it is easier to believe that a company is somehow purposely refusing to give you the product that you personally want, than it is to accept that your desires are out of the mainstream and do not reflect the majority of buyers.

 

[unfocused]

I appreciate Orangutan's incredible patience.

There are a few things I want to add.

First, I am not as willing as he is to simply concede that Canon is behind on sensor tech. There are many areas of sensor development where Canon is clearly the leader, most notably DPAF. The patents that form the basis of this thread are another indicator that Canon continues to innovate in sensor R&D.

When people say Canon is behind, they really mean that Canon trails in one metric that seems to have an outsized importance to some users -- Dynamic Range at base ISO. But there certainly can be legitimate debate as to how important that metric is to most photographers. I am one of those who doesn't happen to view it as all that important.

Frankly I resent those who have appointed themselves the arbiters of what is important in DSLR development. Just because they believe dynamic range at base ISO is important doesn't make it important to a majority of photographers. It may be, but we have no evidence to support that and what evidence is available (the market) would indicate that most buyers don't care.

Would I take higher dynamic range? Sure. But, I would find it much more important at higher ISOs, an area where Canon is very competitive with other brands. And, in the list of things I would like to see in future cameras, dynamic range doesn't even make it into the top 10.

Far more important to me as someone who earns a fair share of my income from photography would be the following in a 5DIV:

Incremental improvements in high ISO performance;
The film-like appearance of noise that the 7DII offers (as well as the 5DR from what I understand);
Autofocus improvements on a par with the 7DII or even better;
Using DPAF to implement automatic micro adjustment of lenses;
A higher fps rate;
Touch screen;
A user friendly implementation of wifi;
Ability to do some minor edits in camera or at a minimum to transfer files seamlessly to a tablet for quick edits under deadline;
Retaining the same battery and battery grip as the current 5DIII;
Expanded autofocus points so that they cover more of the viewfinder;
Holding the megapixel count to 24mp or so, with a corresponding improvement in high ISO performance (there are always trade-offs and I would happily trade additional megapixels for less noise at higher ISOs).

This is my wish list. I'd welcome any other advancements Canon may offer. I'm not about to cry and pout if they don't offer the changes I hope for. I will simply evaluate the next generation and determine whether or not it is enough of an improvement for me to upgrade.

 

[hmatthes]

Lots of crying but let's look at what Canon has done...
I rarely pack my old L glass since my cheapo STM lenses on the 70D produce stunning images that sell at 24x36 and larger with excellent DR and shadow details.
In my film days the Holy Grail was a 17-36 f2.8, the 28-70 f2.8 and the 70-200 f2.8 -- a large budget for 3 lenses.
Now my kit is the 70D, the 10-18 STM, 18-135 STM, and the 55-250 STM -- smaller aperatures but consistently better images.
The net: Today's 70D dual pixel, crop sized, sensor delivers outstanding images on "Prosumer" gear.
Yes, I will buy the 5D-IV, replace my antique L lenses with modern counterparts, and get the marvelous quality that these L lenses produce. But it may not be recognizable to most clients who enjoy today's STM/70D images!

 

[Woody]

I like the 2 links pointed out other folks previously:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/09/16/canon-maeda-promises-eos-m-enthusiasts-more-aps-c-lenses-new-printers

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Sony-bets-on-mirrorless-cameras-for-revival?page=2

BTW, I have been following BCNRanking that shows camera market sales in Japan. Seems that Sony is TOTALLY losing their mirrorless market shares to Olympus in 2015. So, great technology does not necessarily translate into better sales in Japan... and probably elsewhere on the planet too.

 

[Ozarker]

Canon fanboisism is very amusing. LOL!
It's just a camera system, boys.

And then you are accused of "fanboisism" [sic] if you try to point out factual errors in a rational manner.

Utterly pointless............

Nikon and Sony have better sensors.

Has anyone in this thread said any different? The discussion (of this thread, anyhow) is whether the Sonikon sensors are better enough at low ISO to force Canon to make a "big leap forward in performance" for upcoming bodies.

Please read more carefully.

Who appointed you the forum police?
I will post what I want to say on this sensor thread.
Do you have control issues? LOL!
Please read what I just posted.
(Did I mention that the Sony and Nikon sensors are better than the Canon sensor right now?)

That was...weak. I was expecting a better response. Would you like to try again?

So many of these threads are like listening to guys argue on sports talk radio.

 

[Loswr]

The shared anxiety stems from Canon showing little improvement in shadow and lower light improvements since the release of the 5DII.

Shared by whom? :

What horrible cataclysm in Canon's dSLR sales has been brought about by this supposed 'problem' you seem so anxious about? If, in your opinion, other manufacturers have shown significant shadow and lower light improvements, has that translated to significant gains in market share at the Canon's expense?

Oh, by the way, my 1D X gives me at least 3 more usable stops of higher ISO than my 5DII – that seems like a pretty significant 'lower light improvement' to me. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of your opinions.

Please share some tests that show the 1DX has a 3 stop improvement at a given ISO.

The technical information was provided by Don. Also, note that I stated 'gives me', not 'delivers based on technical specs (although the specs do, in fact, support the 3-stop improvement).

Nevertheless, I notice you quite conveniently ignored the fact that Canon continues to maintain strong market leadership in spite of this 'anxiety' you seem to share with a few people on Internet forums.

 

[keithcooper]

Just checked the thread to see if anyone had spotted any more info in the patents I'd listed.

How silly of me

I am minded to wonder how many people post such inane drivel carefully reasoned opinion when using their real names ;-)

 

[bdunbar79]

For me it has nothing to do with brand loyalty, defensiveness, or fanboisim or whatever. It's the continued inability to take data and draw conclusions from that data. It's one thing to say that Canon sensors aren't as good as Sonikon sensors. It's the continued threat that Canon is doomed and had better shape up or they're done crap that is not supported by ANY data available. In fact, the data available suggests otherwise. That's really the big frustrating part of these garbage discussions.

 

[Orangutan]

I am minded to wonder how many people post such inane drivel carefully reasoned opinion when using their real names ;-)

To which carefully reasoned drivel are you referring?

 

[keithcooper]

I am minded to wonder how many people post such inane drivel carefully reasoned opinion when using their real names ;-)

To which carefully reasoned drivel are you referring?

Oh, there's plenty to go around... ;-)

 

[canonic]

Patents, patents and more patents!
Ok, i got this. Canon is the champion at making patents.
Only if we could take photos with patents ;D

 

[scyrene]

Wow, an awful lot of butthurt in this thread. Let's face facts, at the very least there's a perception that Canon's sensors are old tech. Even if this isn't a tech problem, it's an image problem. Canon seems to have stuck its fingers in its ears and largely refused to acknowledge that the market has changed.

I really don't understand the ferocity of brand loyalty. This doesn't just apply to Canon, btw (I'm looking at you, Apple fans). Criticising Canon is not an attack on you. And whenever someone puts a product out for sale, it demands to be criticised. If Canon really is the market leader, then its products should be unambiguously superior, and that's not the case. They're not necessarily inferior, but when a company stops innovating, usurpers move in. I feel like Canon's innovation has slowed, and companies like Sony and Panasonic have moved in the provide photographers and videographers with the products that Canon isn't, or isn't providing at a reasonable price. Even if Canon's sensors aren't as bad as the detractors say, that's no excuse for Canon not putting out better.

We must always demand better, even if better isn't necessarily, er, necessary. This is a cut throat market and Canon can't afford to let its guard down. After all, it's hard to get to the top, but even harder to stay there.

You've read this thread as 'butthurt' brand loyalists getting upset?

The same old suspects are talking about the same old thing - the sensor issue. Nobody has contested it. Others have - with some grace and civility, and a few facts - shown it's not causing any trouble for the company's market share, which was the original contention.

The market leader's products should be unambiguously superior? Even if you could establish an objective measure of superiority, in what other field is this true? Are the biggest restaurant chains and supermarkets, or car manufacturers providing the best products? Or is marketing and business strategy more important?

It's the effort that people go to justify Canon's actions rather than demanding better that bewilders me. Just because it's good for Canon, doesn't necessarily mean it's good for us. Canon is not your friend. It's not your enemy, but it's not your friend. Canon is like a stripper: it doesn't actually like you, it just pretends to so that you give it your money.

Lol I like the analogy. But of course that's true of every company - if Canon users here get riled, it's because others treat Sony (or even Nikon) as somehow charitable institutions who only want the best for their customers.

I think if you asked, almost every current Canon user - even enthusiast or fanboy - would say they wanted better from future products. Of course! But what constitutes better varies by person, and whether offering one thing or another hurts or helps their sales is very hard to say.

 

[scyrene]

I appreciate Orangutan's incredible patience.

And eloquence!

 

[George D.]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

- Is the sensor patent in this thread related to higher resolution for extracting stills out of 8k video?
- Does Canon have R&D for 8k like Panasonic now?
- If 8k appears to be the next big thing around the corner are 1DX2/5D4 to be considered "intermediate" models lesser-priced than their predecessors? I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.


FYI: http://asia.nikkei.com/Tech-Science/Tech/Panasonic-resuming-image-sensor-R-D-with-eye-on-8K

 

[Loswr]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

 

[Stu_bert]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

- Is the sensor patent in this thread related to higher resolution for extracting stills out of 8k video?
- Does Canon have R&D for 8k like Panasonic now?
- If 8k appears to be the next big thing around the corner are 1DX2/5D4 to be considered "intermediate" models lesser-priced than their predecessors? I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.


FYI: http://asia.nikkei.com/Tech-Science/Tech/Panasonic-resuming-image-sensor-R-D-with-eye-on-8K

you mean this

http://www.canonrumors.com/first-photo-of-the-cinema-eos-8k-camera/

a working tech demonstration

The "appeal" of high MP stills from video is perhaps for journalists / sports photographers where they want to get the critical moment, and use video extracts rather than high fps. I'm sure you could extract frames whilst stepping through it on the camera, but I would guess you would do that on a computer instead. However, that is more a function of the dsp & processor than it is the sensor as I understand it (otherwise how would you know what frame you want to extract and how big would the buffer have to be for you to review?)

Looking at Canon's past strategy, I would suggest their 8K is firmly aimed at Cinema and the like, not for photographers. 8K also allows differentiation from the 4K and 6K crowd, perhaps providing some separation between what enthusiasts have access to.

I guess once they have 8K, then 4K might be more prevalent in their photography gear

 

[George D.]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

 

[George D.]

@stu_bert: No, I mean this http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3071034479/panasonic-to-restart-development-of-image-sensors-to-fast-track-8k-video?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=mainmenu&utm_medium=text&ref=mainmenu

Not Lumix of course but dSLR. Mind 4K is now coming on dSLR.

 

[privatebydesign]

There are now rumors of Panasonic fast-pacing 8k R&D with a view to introduce 8k consumer stills cameras and video in 2018 and broadcast Tokyo Olympics (2020) in 8K. Interestingly said, 33Mp stills can be extracted out of 8K/30fps video as compared to 8Mp out of 4K. Now that's a game changer.

In the context of your post – Olympic sports, fast action – how would extracting stills from 30 fps video be game changing?

I guess everyone will be pressing Canon for 8k to extract stills.

I rather guess not.

For example 1DX has 14fps to capture the precise moment of the runners on the finish line, this would then be achieved from extracting a single shot out of an 8k/30fps movie and at 33Mp resolution. Depth of field is also said to be manageable in post. Same convenience can be at hand during filming a wedding (in movie mode). The game changer is the 33Mp pic extraction, currently unavailable on dSLR.

George, you are missing the shutter speed out of your equations. Video is slow at 1/50-1/100 sec per frame, sports stills need 1/500 to not get blur. The two are incompatible.