Petapixel: Canon Full Frame Mirrorless

[Luds34]

Canon is losing quite a few landscape photographers these days, because there is stiff competition to fill all the broad and niche landscape needs. I still use Canon for landscapes because I like their system and I have no complaints with my process. I can still see vast majorities of people wanting to get into landscapes who are not even considering Canon because of lower MP and less DR. I personally stitch and bracket all of my shots (never missed a shot), so I have not much to gain by leaving Canon, but others certainly see the need.

Respectfully disagree, Johan. Canon isn't really losing folks to mirrorless nearly as much as they are losing folks to Sony sensors -- people are 'switching to mirrorless' just to get their hands on what they think will get them better IQ.

Consider: one of the Sony a7 bodies with an adaptor is probably the cheapest way to get a "better" sensor for FF work without having to flip all your glass. Landscapers are the ones willing to give this a try first, as they need AF far less than most photographers and LV can get them by.

But we continue to hear of everyone leaving Canon for a host of reasons, principally due to the sensors, and secondarily due to their avoiding any significant commitment to mirrorless.

Canon will eventually commit large dollars to mirrorless and make a proper go of it -- with APS-C, not FF. (I don't see a 4th mount happening. But they'll pony up an EVF, offer DPAF, and (please) offer a greater variety of small, native EF-M lenses and people will buy it.

The big wild card is when. I've heard a thousand forum-dwelling photography enthusiasts that claim that Canon is falling so far behind and that everyone is leaving them, but I haven't seen a speck of sales data that shows that Sony / Fuji / etc. are converting large numbers of DSLR users from them. If that starts to happen, Canon will deploy more competitive products in that segment.

- A

+1

Really agree with this. I do not see a FF mirrorless with a new mount from Canon any time soon. They will develop the M platform. Fuji and Olympus are showing you don't need a FF sensor to do mirrorless/compact systems right.

And if others recall earlier rumors about a possible Mirrorless Rebel. I picture the Rebel ergonomics, look and feel to stay the same, aka take out mirrorbox, etc and go to a EVF and maintain the current EF-S/EF mount. This seems like a strategy a conservative company like Canon would go for.

 

[dolina]

But it's true.....

Everyone has left canon..... Yet somehow they are still number one in sales.....

Nobody likes the 7d2, yet it is a hot seller.....
Perhaps Internet wisdom is flawed.....

A more correct interpretation is "early adaptors have left Canon".

The Internet does not like the 7D2 but dolina loves it nonetheless.

Although my wisdom has me endorsing Sony E-mount & Fujifilm X-mount cameras to new camera buyers who have no interest in wildlife/sports and other applications that needs a very competent AF system.

Chances are these new camera buyers will never get lenses/accessories that are Nikon/Canon specific. Not to mention the smaller dimension and lesser weight will encourage them to take their camera with them more often. That's one reason why I got my Canon pancake lens.

 

[dolina]

What is a Rangefinder Mirrorless Camera? That sounds pretty Retro, and limited production is not Canons thing, particularly in a falling market.

I'd be very happy with a FF mirrorless body that used existing lenses, but I'd just ignore one that needed new lenses. Using a adaptor with my EF lenses would be out of consideration.

If the rumor is proven true then Canon did a Sony by making a transition to smaller cameras in weight & dimension.

It would be a mistake on Canon's part to allow other companies to make obsolete their products.

I meant full frame mirrorless interchangeable lens camera and/or rangerfinder-like camera.

Marsu42, it is possible for Canon to produce/market in parallel a full frame mirroless lens mount system as a transition period.

I am sure TLR and RF users in the 60s and 70s dissed SLR technology because it was not in the mainstream but look at where they are right now?

 

[deleteme]

Why would canon develop a FF slr that its still in general the same size as the 5d,6d body size and keep the lens mount and distance to the sensor the same

As far as I can see the reduction of body size is a bit overblown especially for FF as the lenses still need to observe physical limitations. Sony's FF lenses are evidence that the masters of miniaturization cannot skin that cat.

This gets to market segmentation. You have multiple users of mirrorless with different needs. Consider just two (of many) groups coming to mirrorless from SLRs:

1) People who love the small form factor for carrying or discretion reasons — street, reportage, travel shooters and such. They *don’t* want big lenses, huge grips and such. They want 90% the IQ/features of a same-sensor-sized-SLR in 50% of the size.

2) People who are migrating to mirrorless from DSLRs simply for the best IQ they can get (i.e. people buying the various a7 Sony models) — a good example would be Canon landscape shooters wanting more MP or more DR. These folks don’t give a damn about form factor and are bolting big L lenses on to these bodies with adaptors. Effectively, they *aren’t* mirrorless devotees so much as fans of wonderful sensors and don’t mind fighting through the limitations (battery life, AF, etc.) of today’s mirrorless rigs. An A7R and an adapter is a much cheaper way to upgrade your sensor than buying a D810 and new lenses.

Normalnorm, it appears to me that Group 1 above really cares about size, and Group 2 couldn't give a damn if it takes the best shot (and, bonus, lets them keep using their old glass).
- A

I agree completely. It seems that most seem to focus on the size thus Canon hears a lot about small bodies and gives us the M to see if that will suffice.

 

[ahsanford]

And if others recall earlier rumors about a possible Mirrorless Rebel. I picture the Rebel ergonomics, look and feel to stay the same, aka take out mirrorbox, etc and go to a EVF and maintain the current EF-S/EF mount. This seems like a strategy a conservative company like Canon would go for.

I'm torn here.

To simply pull the mirror assembly out of the body is a nice science project for Canon, but it won't reduce the size. For all the great comments we've seen on this thread about EVFs with more useful information / focus peaking, more reliability without a mirror mechanism, etc. the basic draw of mirrorless is to make it smaller, so a good chunk of folks who did like the EOS-M's small form factor would find such a body a step in the wrong direction.

So my gut is telling me that Canon will stay conservative (for now) and do the following things with the next EOS-M:

• A more modern sensor, DPAF, etc. = 90% likelihood (fair amount of speculation that it will be the 70D sensor itself)
• Improve AF speed = 100% likelihood (one would assume the prior bullet point would greatly assist this)
• Offer some form of an EVF -- either a modular one (Canon loves it's grip and wireless transmitter upcharges...) or possibly a split into a non-EVF body and a better body with an integral EVF = 75% likelihood
• More native EF-M lenses (for smallest possible size) = No idea. (They've been so slow on pushing out EF-M glass.)

Canon really has to do the first three things or I think it will remain DOA to enthusiasts or pros looking for a second body. Some folks love their EOS-M bodies, but I will not touch one without a viewfinder.

- A

 

[dolina]

Craig, you have my blessing to rename the subject title. I find the honor of my thread as a CR post a bit amusing. 8)

 

[StudentOfLight]

What is a Rangefinder Mirrorless Camera? That sounds pretty Retro, and limited production is not Canons thing, particularly in a falling market.

I'd be very happy with a FF mirrorless body that used existing lenses, but I'd just ignore one that needed new lenses. Using a adaptor with my EF lenses would be out of consideration.

I have to ask, what's the point of the mirrorless camera if it used EF lenses? The 6D isn't that much bigger than the A7, and they could probably shave some size off the next one if they wanted to.

This could be a transition body...
1) The body could offer better weather sealing by eliminating the need for an adapter.
2) Existing customers could be serviced without Canon immediately having to commit to a new full frame mirrorless mount and the customers wouldn't need to immediately invest in new lenses.
3) Mirrorless is probably cheaper to produce and sell so there would be more leeway for pricing.

If the 6D-II moves upmarket to replace the 5D-III (and the 5D-IV takes on the D810) and the 6D is discontinued, then there would be a gap for entry-level full-frame. A FF-Mirrorless with basic AF capability could then fill that entry tier position in the product lineup as it would be suitable for casual travel, landscape photography.

 

[ahsanford]

Marsu42, it is possible for Canon to produce/market in parallel a full frame mirroless lens mount system as a transition period.

Dolina, this is a dream scenario for Canon folks who want mirrorless. For a transition period of 3-7 years (who knows how long is needed), every time Canon offers a new FF sensor, there are separate mirrorless and DSLR bodies offered that uses it. Folks would not have to choose between format (SLR vs. Mirrorless) and the best sensor, and Canon could ramp up in Mirrorless users while they ramp down in DSLR users without there being a huge cliff to transition from. As DSLR popularity slowly erodes in favor of Mirrorless over time (as tech improves), Canon will simply stop offering DSLRs in specific price points -- one would imagine that Rebels would go first, XXD models would go second, and 1/5/7D models would be the last to go (if they do at all).

The rub, of course, is that blasted FF mirrorless mount. If they keep the same EF setup (i.e just pull the mirror with no size reduction), interest in those bodies will be limited to the most keen enthusiasts and pros who want a very specific mirrorless advantage (fancy EVF, peaking, burst, etc.). Or, Canon could make a standalone FF mirrorless mount that requires new glass and/or an adapter to walk back to the EF flange distance. The latter is undoubtedly a more attractive smaller product, but it would also be a financial back-breaker in the near and mid term.

Now replace the word "full-frame" in your question and in everything I wrote above with "Crop". That's exactly what Canon could have done when EOS-M launched: Rebels and EOS-Ms being sold side by side. But with a far far greater financial commitment in SLRs, lenses, etc. Canon has made the EOS-M effectively a stillborn while Rebels continue to sell relatively well.

So the transition you refer to is not happening... not at Canon, at least.

- A

 

[Marsu42]

Marsu42, it is possible for Canon to produce/market in parallel a full frame mirroless lens mount system as a transition period.

Dolina, this is a dream scenario for Canon folks who want mirrorless.

+1

So the transition you refer to is not happening... not at Canon, at least.

But probably they've learned from the aps-c mirrorless, or even never intended it to really succeeed (and that's why the m2 isn't available outside Asia)?

Probably the upcoming introduction of a mirrorless ff mount is also the reason for Canon not updating the old primes - they are planning to release ef-m-ff mount versions of these?

 

[dolina]

So the transition you refer to is not happening... not at Canon, at least.

- A

Execution does need work but it is happening. ;D

 

[ahsanford]

So the transition you refer to is not happening... not at Canon, at least.

But probably they've learned from the aps-c mirrorless, or even never intended it to really succeeed (and that's why the m2 isn't available outside Asia)?

Probably the upcoming introduction of a mirrorless ff mount is also the reason for Canon not updating the old primes - they are planning to release ef-m-ff mount versions of these?

One has to wonder. EOS M has been out (roughly?) 2.5 years and there are presently two first party EF-M lenses for sale at B&H.

Two.

And no, adaptors do not count. See attached picture, giggle.... annnnnnd resume waiting for more EF-M glass.

I still think Canon is going to ride out the crop format (not a bad call sensor-wise -- it's a great call for IQ / size for mirrorless), but yes, Marsu, they haven't exactly spent billions on supporting the EF-M mount. So an awkward retraction that they got it wrong and a follow up with an FF mirrorless mount is not Canon's style at all, but it is possible given how little they've spent on EF-M to date.

- A

 

[TAF]

And if others recall earlier rumors about a possible Mirrorless Rebel. I picture the Rebel ergonomics, look and feel to stay the same, aka take out mirrorbox, etc and go to a EVF and maintain the current EF-S/EF mount. This seems like a strategy a conservative company like Canon would go for.

I'm torn here.

To simply pull the mirror assembly out of the body is a nice science project for Canon, but it won't reduce the size. For all the great comments we've seen on this thread about EVFs with more useful information / focus peaking, more reliability without a mirror mechanism, etc. the basic draw of mirrorless is to make it smaller, so a good chunk of folks who did like the EOS-M's small form factor would find such a body a step in the wrong direction.

So my gut is telling me that Canon will stay conservative (for now) and do the following things with the next EOS-M:

• A more modern sensor, DPAF, etc. = 90% likelihood (fair amount of speculation that it will be the 70D sensor itself)
• Improve AF speed = 100% likelihood (one would assume the prior bullet point would greatly assist this)
• Offer some form of an EVF -- either a modular one (Canon loves it's grip and wireless transmitter upcharges...) or possibly a split into a non-EVF body and a better body with an integral EVF = 75% likelihood
• More native EF-M lenses (for smallest possible size) = No idea. (They've been so slow on pushing out EF-M glass.)

Canon really has to do the first three things or I think it will remain DOA to enthusiasts or pros looking for a second body. Some folks love their EOS-M bodies, but I will not touch one without a viewfinder.

- A

I must respectfully disagree with you that the primary objective to getting rid of the mirror is to make the camera smaller. It is my contention that the reason the EOS-M was a failure was that it lacked a viewfinder, undoubtedly because they were aiming for minimum size.

Size drove the design, right into the ground.

The only way to use the camera is to "chimp", so what is otherwise a superb piece of equipment is reduced to a P+S for a great deal more money. I bought mine during the great blowout sale, and enjoy it, but I understand the limitations.

Take DSLR, remove the mirror and prism, and put on a rangefinder (optical or EVF), and you've got a much better form factor for taking pictures, with all of the additional benefits mentioned above.

As for pros looking for a second unit, which is more likely to sell, something that can use all the same lenses, or something that needs a different series or an adapter?

I'd be interested in a nice FF rangefinder (EF) with removable viewfinder in the size of a classic full size to I have something to hold on to.

I'd "pull out the plastic" for a FF model using EF lenses in the form factor of the Rollei SL3000 (for those of you not familiar, think 35mm Hasselblad 500) using an EVF on the top. That could be a game changer for Canon.

 

[tcmatthews]

Canon is losing quite a few landscape photographers these days, because there is stiff competition to fill all the broad and niche landscape needs. I still use Canon for landscapes because I like their system and I have no complaints with my process. I can still see vast majorities of people wanting to get into landscapes who are not even considering Canon because of lower MP and less DR. I personally stitch and bracket all of my shots (never missed a shot), so I have not much to gain by leaving Canon, but others certainly see the need.

Respectfully disagree, Johan. Canon isn't really losing folks to mirrorless nearly as much as they are losing folks to Sony sensors -- people are 'switching to mirrorless' just to get their hands on what they think will get them better IQ.

Consider: one of the Sony a7 bodies with an adaptor is probably the cheapest way to get a "better" sensor for FF work without having to flip all your glass. Landscapers are the ones willing to give this a try first, as they need AF far less than most photographers and LV can get them by.

But we continue to hear of everyone leaving Canon for a host of reasons, principally due to the sensors, and secondarily due to their avoiding any significant commitment to mirrorless.

Canon will eventually commit large dollars to mirrorless and make a proper go of it -- with APS-C, not FF. (I don't see a 4th mount happening. But they'll pony up an EVF, offer DPAF, and (please) offer a greater variety of small, native EF-M lenses and people will buy it.

The big wild card is when. I've heard a thousand forum-dwelling photography enthusiasts that claim that Canon is falling so far behind and that everyone is leaving them, but I haven't seen a speck of sales data that shows that Sony / Fuji / etc. are converting large numbers of DSLR users from them. If that starts to happen, Canon will deploy more competitive products in that segment.

- A

+1

Really agree with this. I do not see a FF mirrorless with a new mount from Canon any time soon. They will develop the M platform. Fuji and Olympus are showing you don't need a FF sensor to do mirrorless/compact systems right.

And if others recall earlier rumors about a possible Mirrorless Rebel. I picture the Rebel ergonomics, look and feel to stay the same, aka take out mirrorbox, etc and go to a EVF and maintain the current EF-S/EF mount. This seems like a strategy a conservative company like Canon would go for.

Personally I think if they were going to do a Mirrorless Rebel I think it would be better to keep the grip and the back about the same. Add a EVF where the OVF is. Then make the main body thinner put a M mount on it. It would be about the same size as current Rebels use EOS M lens. If they create a packages with the converter to the EF-S/EF mount.

 

[Rocky]

What is a Rangefinder Mirrorless Camera? That sounds pretty Retro, and limited production is not Canons thing, particularly in a falling market.

I'd be very happy with a FF mirrorless body that used existing lenses, but I'd just ignore one that needed new lenses. Using a adaptor with my EF lenses would be out of consideration.

That is Leica M9 or ME. It is a mechanical monster. The gearing in the lens and the linkage in the camera alone will need to be precision mechining ( read it as expensive). To be fair, Canon was in that business untill the 1960's. It's camera is only 10 to 15% cheaper than similar Leica at that time.

 

[DigitalSteve]

Re: what's the point of the mirrorless camera if it used EF lenses?

I have to ask, what's the point of the mirrorless camera if it used EF lenses? The 6D isn't that much bigger than the A7, and they could probably shave some size off the next one if they wanted to.

IMHO,The biggest reason is being able to very accurately focus using the EVF in bright sunlight. The Sony cameras can be set to automatically zoom the viewfinder to 14x when you turn the focus ring or at the press of a button next to the shutter release. Although not useful for moving objects, it assures crisp focus for landscape photos. On the 5D3 I could do something similar using the LCD and zoom, but had to use a hoodman to see it clear enough in daylight. I sold both my 5D3s and bought 2 A7r's but kept most of my Canon lenses 14mm 2.8 II and 17mm TSE are especially good on the Sony.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

I'm probably in the minority by wanting a large mirrorless camera. Canon has certainly said that the majority of buyers want smaller cameras, so there is every possibility that will prevail.

Canon did patent a new lens mount that may have been targeted at a mirrorless.

So, while I'd like a Mirrorless that used EF lenses native, its unlikely to actually happen. Canon will come out with a new lens series, and a adaptor for EF lenses, then trickle out some of the new ones each year.

 

[weixing]

I'm probably in the minority by wanting a large mirrorless camera. Canon has certainly said that the majority of buyers want smaller cameras, so there is every possibility that will prevail.

Canon did patent a new lens mount that may have been targeted at a mirrorless.

So, while I'd like a Mirrorless that used EF lenses native, its unlikely to actually happen. Canon will come out with a new lens series, and a adaptor for EF lenses, then trickle out some of the new ones each year.

Hi,
IMHO, if Canon going to replace some of their DSLR with mirrorless, they can just use EF mount:
1) All current lens will be compatible with it... don't need to spend $$ to create another new mount and new lens.
2) Handling and ergonomics - not everyone want a small camera due to handling. Also, with a small camera body, you can only put so much buttons and dials on it and ergonomics will suffer... a lots of people want fast operation... most don't want to go into the menu every time they want to change something and current Canon DSLR design had very good ergonomics.
3) If you want good IQ with high resolution image, large lens with large diameter lens element is needed and large lens don't go well with small camera body.
4) Mirrorless need more power than DSLR, if you decrease the camera size, battery life will suffer and also to drive the lens for faster AF, you need more power.

Canon can just maintain 2 mirrorless lines:
1) DSLR size mirrorless - for people who don't mind or want a bigger camera body for better handling and ergonomics.
2) EOS M style small mirrorless - for those who want small camera.

Anyway, Canon can just use one of their DSLR design... remove the mirror box and replace the prism with an EVF and they got a DSLR size mirrorless camera... ;D

By the way, I hope Canon can install a some sort of sensor curtain to cover the sensor when not in use (power off or during power saving mode) or during changing lens. An exposing sensor is not a good thing especially when changing lens in the field. Also, imaging a super telephoto lens on a mirrorless during transportation and accidentally point at the Sun... you'll end up a burning sensor.

Have a nice day.

 

[infared]

"It’s pretty obvious a new EOS M camera is coming, but I suspect it’s going to be the 70D sensor in a camera that will have a new design philosophy."

That sounds like a sensible guess....Time will tell.

 

[eos650]

Small is not always desired...

EF 400mm f2.8L IS II
EF 2.0X II Extender
Voltrox EF to M Adapter
EOS M

 

[Rocky]

Small is not always desired...

EF 400mm f2.8L IS II
EF 2.0X II Extender
Voltrox EF to M Adapter
EOS M

That is an EXTREME case. May I ask how many of you have put the EOS-M with 22mm lens in your own pocket or your wife's purse? That is what the EOS-M is for. If it is done right, we can still put a FF mirrorless with a 35mm lens in the wind breaker jacket easily.