RF Mount APS-C camera coming second half of 2021 [CR2]

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,187
2,063
With an (Let's call it RF-S) mount, I see no reason to keep the EOS M line going. They don't have very many lenses anyway and they can simply tweak existing optic formulations for the new flange distance and mount. I don't see it being super resource intensive. I see replacing the M line as a good investment if Canon is to take the mirrorless game seriously.

Again, wow, let's ditch that damn EF-M mount.

Why, for God's sake?

Because YOU think it's useless?

Do you honestly imagine the only reason Canon created this mount was in case they wanted to create a 7D successor on it?

It's evident from the huge number of people buying EF-M that it's far from useless to a lot of people. Canon makes a ton of money from it, even with the limited lens selection. It's not going away. OK, it's not going into your camera bag either, but that doesn't mean it should go away.
 

H. Jones

Photojournalist
Aug 1, 2014
600
1,035
I will admit, I think an R7 makes more sense than an M7 to replace the 7D. An R7 has less need for lower end lenses or being compact, since the primary customer will be paying a hefty amount to begin with and is probably leaning towards bigger glass anyway. I honestly think a R7 would sell fine if it stood totally on its own and didn't even have any crop-dedicated lenses. Having the 7D market segment move towards an R7 would definitely sell more higher-margin RF glass like the 15-35, 70-200, and 100-500 for birding/sports.

But that said, the M series on its own makes a lot of sense to me. I could totally see the M series totally replacing the rebel line altogether, and could also easily occupy the 90D part of the market if they expanded it. I do think the 90D segment is starting to be replaced by cheap full frame cameras like the RP, R, and R6, though.
 

Bob Howland

EOS RP
CR Pro
Mar 25, 2012
608
205
Is this going to be R-system dedicated sport camera? Also, If it's "built for speed" and costs $2000, how does it compete with the M-system?
 

amorse

EOS RP
Jan 26, 2017
779
1,024
www.instagram.com
How the hell does that follow?

Isn't it just barely conceivable that Canon will KEEP the M series AND do this?
It's certainly conceivable that they'd keep both, that's why I said maybe. Until this rumour I was pretty firmly in the camp that M wasn't going anywhere any time soon. With that said, I have no more of a crystal ball than anyone else in here.

How the hell it follows? My logic behind why M could disappear is based on a few things:
  1. The rumour here from a few days ago that said EF-M may disappear in 2021 (CR1 in all fairness)
  2. With a crop sensor camera in RF mount, Canon would be maintaining 3 different mounts for crop sensor cameras, and only one of those is an easy transition pathway to more expensive bodies (RF-S), though one could argue EF-S isn't a bad transition to RF due to the adapters available. I could certainly see Canon working to reduce the number of ecosystems they're supporting in a dramatically shrinking camera market, but whether EF-S or EF-M would become the sacrificial lamb remains to be seen.
  3. Past reports have implied that many manufacturers are intending to put more emphasis on higher-margin and higher-end bodies. I think that priority focus may lead to Canon trying to create more ways to get buyers into the RF mount, which makes sense for creating an RF APS-C camera which can direct first-time buyers toward the RF mount. If Canon wants to move people up market, and the top of the market will be RF full frame cameras, then making very affordable APS-C RF bodies will likely become a higher priority.
  4. EF-M fills a niche which a lot of people really like (myself included) - very small and portable and relatively price conscious. No question that there is a market for those products - the M50 still shows that today. However, if an APS-C RF mount camera can get to a comparable size as an EF-M body (likely in coordination with some size-conscious lenses), it may hold a very similar niche as EF-M but have greater value to Canon as a transition pathway.
Anyway, it's anyone's guess, but with 3 APS-C sensor cameras being maintained, I could certainly understand if Canon were to offload one or more based on past rumours. But again, I can't see the future any more than anyone else.
 

wyotex43n

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 24, 2016
58
39
With an (Let's call it RF-S) mount, I see no reason to keep the EOS M line going. They don't have very many lenses anyway and they can simply tweak existing optic formulations for the new flange distance and mount. I don't see it being super resource intensive. I see replacing the M line as a good investment if Canon is to take the mirrorless game seriously.

If Canon did this smartly, they would've went full frame mirrorless first THEN build their APS-C line on that. They did this backwards.
I can't see Canon making an RF-S line of lenses. Yes they will make less expensive lenses but not another whole mount.
I think the M line will survive on its own as long as it sells.
But a one off R7 makes sense. They will want to retain all those 7D mk ii user who have L class on their 7D's.
My 2 cents.
 

wyotex43n

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 24, 2016
58
39
I will admit, I think an R7 makes more sense than an M7 to replace the 7D. An R7 has less need for lower end lenses or being compact, since the primary customer will be paying a hefty amount to begin with and is probably leaning towards bigger glass anyway. I honestly think a R7 would sell fine if it stood totally on its own and didn't even have any crop-dedicated lenses. Having the 7D market segment move towards an R7 would definitely sell more higher-margin RF glass like the 15-35, 70-200, and 100-500 for birding/sports.

But that said, the M series on its own makes a lot of sense to me. I could totally see the M series totally replacing the rebel line altogether, and could also easily occupy the 90D part of the market if they expanded it. I do think the 90D segment is starting to be replaced by cheap full frame cameras like the RP, R, and R6, though.
I agree, I have been using my R5 for 2 weeks. But I am not letting go of my 7Dmk ll. I still like the extra reach/pixels on the bird. If they produce a tough R body with an APS-c sensor I would be all in. The R5 autofocus with a 25-32 megapixel crop sensor would be great if they can keep the noise down. Plus all the high end lens development will be on the R body. No need to produce R-S mount lenses just for one camera.
 

reef58

EOS RP
CR Pro
Apr 16, 2016
357
291
North Carolina
youtu.be
With an (Let's call it RF-S) mount, I see no reason to keep the EOS M line going. They don't have very many lenses anyway and they can simply tweak existing optic formulations for the new flange distance and mount. I don't see it being super resource intensive. I see replacing the M line as a good investment if Canon is to take the mirrorless game seriously.

If Canon did this smartly, they would've went full frame mirrorless first THEN build their APS-C line on that. They did this backwards.

I am going to disagree all sorts of ways. The M is the best selling line. The M will fit in a cargo pocket with a lens and weighs basically nothing. A high end RF-APS-C is going to be much larger and heavier not to mention the lenses. They serve different purposes and not mutually exclusive.
 

padam

EOS R
Aug 26, 2015
1,173
778
I think people misinterpret what is happening.
The EF-M will be just like the EF mount
e.g. it will stop development after the new M cameras (which should keep it relevant for 3-4 more years) and it will continue to sell (older technology = much cheaper, just like with the Sony A7 line)
The newer more expensive stuff will be the RF-mount and eventually there will be cheaper lenses and cheaper crop sensor RF-mount cameras (as this rumour suggests they can reduce the footprint even beyond the EOS RP), but it's a very long way into the future.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,187
2,063
I agree, I have been using my R5 for 2 weeks. But I am not letting go of my 7Dmk ll. I still like the extra reach/pixels on the bird. If they produce a tough R body with an APS-c sensor I would be all in. The R5 autofocus with a 25-32 megapixel crop sensor would be great if they can keep the noise down. Plus all the high end lens development will be on the R body. No need to produce R-S mount lenses just for one camera.

Yes. THIS WOULD NOT BE A NEW MOUNT. Not even a faux "new mount" like the EF-S. (Basically almost identical to EF; it even takes EF lenses without an adapter!)
 

wyotex43n

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 24, 2016
58
39
Is this going to be R-system dedicated sport camera? Also, If it's "built for speed" and costs $2000, how does it compete with the M-system?
No need to compete with the M line. I almost think of Canon as two different camera companies now. The M line for small light less expensive but still a quality product. VS The R line for pros and serious amateurs. They are letting the existing user base of EF and EF-s lenses/bodies decide which camp to migrate to and they will follow the money.
A crop sensor R7 would be a migration path for the majority of 7D mk ll users who have L class on their 7Ds. I don't know how big that group is but I don't think Canon wants to lose them. I am in that group.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,187
2,063
I think people misinterpret what is happening.
The EF-M will be just like the EF mount
e.g. it will stop development after the new M cameras (which should keep it relevant for 3-4 more years) and it will continue to sell (older technology = much cheaper, just like with the Sony A7 line)
The newer more expensive stuff will be the RF-mount and eventually there will be cheaper lenses and cheaper crop sensor RF-mount cameras (as this rumour suggests they can reduce the footprint even beyond the EOS RP), but it's a very long way into the future.

I don't know how anyone can read this rumor and conclude on its basis that the EF-M mount will stop development. This would have nothing whatsoever to do with the EF-M mount.

Now there may be other reasons to conclude that the EF-M mount will no longer be developed (among them that they've probably done as much as they can with the lens form factor restrictions they're abiding by) but this rumor certainly isn't one of them.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,187
2,063
No need to compete with the M line. I almost think of Canon as two different camera companies now. The M line for small light less expensive but still a quality product. VS The R line for pros and serious amateurs. They are letting the existing user base of EF and EF-s lenses/bodies decide which camp to migrate to and they will follow the money.
A crop sensor R7 would be a migration path for the majority of 7D mk ll users who have L class on their 7Ds. I don't know how big that group is but I don't think Canon wants to lose them. I am in that group.

Really, it's closer to three companies. After all, there are all those point and shoot cameras.

Heck, there's even a FOURTH line, little jobs the size of a phone (OK perhaps a bit thicker) that will print (yes, print) instantly, just like those old Polaroids.

So having cameras with "no upgrade path" really is nothing new.

And yes...I don't imagine why people imagine this would compete with the M line. They're not meant for the same people. But we've seen, between this and the M7 thread, people who imagine it must be either-or, and even some who hate the M line and want it to drop dead, for some unfathomable reason.
 
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wyotex43n

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 24, 2016
58
39
Yes. THIS WOULD NOT BE A NEW MOUNT. Not even a faux "new mount" like the EF-S. (Basically almost identical to EF; it even takes EF lenses without an adapter!)
Thats an interesting idea. Do you mean a mirrorless EF mount body?
 

wyotex43n

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 24, 2016
58
39
Really, it's closer to three companies. After all, there are all those point and shoot cameras.

Heck, there's even a FOURTH line, little jobs the size of a phone (OK perhaps a bit thicker) that will print (yes, print) instantly, just like those old Polaroids.

So having cameras with "no upgrade path" really is nothing new.

And yes...I don't imagine why people imagine this would compete with the M line. They're not meant for the same people. But we've seen, between this and the M7 thread, people who imagine it must be either-or, and even some who hate the M line and want it to drop dead, for some unfathomable reason.
Yeah I wasn't really thinking about the Powershots. They have an uphill battle with the smartphone world.
 

padam

EOS R
Aug 26, 2015
1,173
778
I don't know how anyone can read this rumor and conclude on its basis that the EF-M mount will stop development. This would have nothing whatsoever to do with the EF-M mount.

Now there may be other reasons to conclude that the EF-M mount will no longer be developed (among them that they've probably done as much as they can with the lens form factor restrictions they're abiding by) but this rumor certainly isn't one of them.
It's not so difficult to see that they aren't planning an RF-mount crop sensor camera and 0 crop sensor lenses and as I said, they can make cameras like Nikon's Z50, which isn't that big or heavy. They are slowly migrating their cinema line to RF-mount as well, because it is the logical thing to do.

No, they haven't done nearly as much as they could with the EF-M. They just don't want to, as the return on development investment is too little and smartphones are slowly eating up this segment.
As I said, there is plenty of life left in the EF-M they will continue to sell the cheap stuff and new cameras will be coming. Just not in the long-run as cameras are getting newer technology, but also become more and more expensive and one mount is enough to deal with.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,187
2,063
Thats an interesting idea. Do you mean a mirrorless EF mount body?

No...I mean this camera would have an R mount *identical* to the R mount on the R, RP, R6, and R5. There's no need to create some sort of RF-S kludge mount, like some people seem to imagine would be happening. Even if they design an R lens with a crop-size image circle, so what? Why bodge it so it won't mount on a full frame camera? That was the point of creating EF-S. But you can ALREADY mount EF-S lenses on an R mount (with the adapter of course); the camera just crops it. So there's simply no need for a special mount to handle RF crop lenses kludged so they won't go onto an R mount.

(As a side note, non-Canon-brand EF-S lenses, at least some of them, don't put my R5 into crop mode automatically. It's kind of cool, actually, it's a "tunnel vision" effect. It's clipped top and bottom just a bit, but not much.)
 
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