Sony A7-A7R pre-ordered @ 200% bigger than expected

[chilledXpress]

The DRiarrhea debate... once again hijacking all topics here on CR. MR would be proud!

“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” ― Mark Twain

 

[spinworkxroy]

I'm not that bothered about DR or how many megapixels it has. Honestly, i find 36 a little too many..thankfully there are options to shoot at 15 or 9mp. Even on my 5d3, i'm usually shooting at mRaw.
However, i must the the raw files from the A7r provide much more detail for editing and it's easier to bring out details than with the 5d3. Even images straight out of camera are rendered much nicer. Maybe it's the lens..but it has a look that i love that the 5d3 doesn't give me unless i edit it alot.

Here's 1 example to took yesterday that is straight out of the camera and direct to facebook.
I actually shot this from my phone, NFC to the A7r with the 35mm zeiss and uploaded to FB immediately after shooting.

 

[Dylan777]

I was a 5D3 user and that was my workhorse camera for everything i shoot and i love that camera.
However, i wanted something smaller and lighter and since i was on FF, i needed it to be FF and I can't afford a Leica.
So in a way, the Sony A7r was what i always wanted.

I spent an hour today with the A7r and the A7 and comparing to the 5D3, the AF is definately not as fast but it's not slow either.
The continuous focusing is no where near the 5D3..it fails quite miserably actually but thankfully what i shoot, i don't use continuous AF. Surprisingly, i find the A7 even slower to focus than the a7r with the same lens.
The EVF is still not as nice to look at compared to the OVF but i guess you get used to it.. IQ however, even SOOC, that's where the 5D3 even with a good prime can't match the A7r.

Ultimately, if you are looking at something to dethrone the 5D3, this isn't going to do it except in terms of IQ. Everything else, i think the 5D3 is better.

But for me, it's light, REALLY small in the hands, fantastic IQ even SOOC jpg and it's exactly what i need for what i shoot.

REALLY? What lens did tried with?

 

[9VIII]

This might be interesting to some of you (what I found interesting starts at 3 minutes and ends at 25 minutes of the video)
Sony A7 & Sony A7R Hands-on & Tested & Special Launch Event

Woah, the Sony rep at the end of the video said that they will give you a Metabones adapter of your choice with the purchase of a body (no lens).
I know it's been mentioned elsewhere, but it's the first I've heard of it.

 

[spinworkxroy]

[quote author=Dylan777]
REALLY? What lens did tried with?
[/quote]

The 35mm f2.8 zeiss...the "default" lens for the A7r

 

[Dylan777]

[quote author=Dylan777]
REALLY? What lens did tried with?

The 35mm f2.8 zeiss...the "default" lens for the A7r
[/quote]

Thanks for info. Did you get a chance to play with A7/A7R with Zeiss 55mm? - if yes, do you find this combo still at compact level?

 

[Rienzphotoz]

The DRiarrhea debate... once again hijacking all topics here on CR. MR would be proud!

How dare you call it "hijacking" ... don't you know DR is everything! ... with enough DR in the sensor, you can even put an empty toilet roll tube and take awesome images, coz everything is auto freakin matic! ;D

 

[spinworkxroy]

[quote author=Dylan777]
Thanks for info. Did you get a chance to play with A7/A7R with Zeiss 55mm? - if yes, do you find this combo still at compact level?
[/quote]

Unfortunately no, they ONLY had the 35mm lenses on the cameras. They didn't have any other FE lenses to test with. They did however have a whole load of metabones adapters to attach your own lenses and the Sony Amount SLT adapter.
However, i did ask them about the size of the 55 and the 24-70f4 and since they had ALL the A mount lenses on display, ithey were able to give a rough example of their sizes and all i can say..it's about the size of the 17-40 from Canon so it's NOT small at all. the 35mm is the ONLY small compact size lens.

I tried it with the Canon 50mm f1.4 and the metabones mk3...it's soooo slow it's impossible to really use for work..average 2 sec AF.

I also tried the A mount adapter with the Zeiss 24-70 f2.8. This is SUPER fast..like a 5d3 but it's basically the same AF as a99 so it's expected. however, it is soooo front heavy..it's super uncomfortable to hold.

 

[sdsr]

I spent an hour today with the A7r and the A7 and comparing to the 5D3, the AF is definately not as fast but it's not slow either.
The continuous focusing is no where near the 5D3..it fails quite miserably actually but thankfully what i shoot, i don't use continuous AF. Surprisingly, i find the A7 even slower to focus than the a7r with the same lens.

The EVF is still not as nice to look at compared to the OVF but i guess you get used to it.. IQ however, even SOOC, that's where the 5D3 even with a good prime can't match the A7r.

Ultimately, if you are looking at something to dethrone the 5D3, this isn't going to do it except in terms of IQ. Everything else, i think the 5D3 is better.

But for me, it's light, REALLY small in the hands, fantastic IQ even SOOC jpg and it's exactly what i need for what i shoot.

Out of curiosity, was this hand-held or on a tripod?

 

[Albi86]

The DRiarrhea debate... once again hijacking all topics here on CR. MR would be proud!

How dare you call it "hijacking" ... don't you know DR is everything! ... with enough DR in the sensor, you can even put an empty toilet roll tube and take awesome images, coz everything is auto freakin matic! ;D

As with the a7 debate, some people are convinced that what's good for them must be good for everybody, otherwise it's just lack of skill.

Still I can't help thinking that if it was the Canon EOS 7, with its high DR 36mpx sensor, the music here would be somewhat different.

They seem to be brilliant cameras. Of course a first attempt is not quite going to destroy a technology matured over decades, but I believe it's very shortsighted to ignore its potential and the many advantages.

 

[Dylan777]

[quote author=Dylan777]
Thanks for info. Did you get a chance to play with A7/A7R with Zeiss 55mm? - if yes, do you find this combo still at compact level?

Unfortunately no, they ONLY had the 35mm lenses on the cameras. They didn't have any other FE lenses to test with. They did however have a whole load of metabones adapters to attach your own lenses and the Sony Amount SLT adapter.
However, i did ask them about the size of the 55 and the 24-70f4 and since they had ALL the A mount lenses on display, ithey were able to give a rough example of their sizes and all i can say..it's about the size of the 17-40 from Canon so it's NOT small at all. the 35mm is the ONLY small compact size lens.

I tried it with the Canon 50mm f1.4 and the metabones mk3...it's soooo slow it's impossible to really use for work..average 2 sec AF.

I also tried the A mount adapter with the Zeiss 24-70 f2.8. This is SUPER fast..like a 5d3 but it's basically the same AF as a99 so it's expected. however, it is soooo front heavy..it's super uncomfortable to hold.
[/quote]

Again...thanks for the info.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

"Yes we know, and we've said you can take millions of perfectly find landscapes shots with a 5D3, but that doesn't mean that someone might not be able to get something extra out of the A7R compared to the 5D3 at times and if someone wants that what the heck is the big problem?" — The "big problem" is that you repeatedly trash Canon for making deficient sensors when that simply isn't true. There is nothing wrong with wanting more from any brand. As I wrote in another thread, photographers can use absolutely more of everything a camera can do, no matter what camera they are using. So go ahead and wish for more DR if that is important to you (or simply buy the brand that offers it). But don't blame Canon for making deficient sensors when their sensors are perfectly good for a wide variety of tasks and meet the standards of some very demanding photographers (for years now). Moreover, photographers have dealt with limited DR ever since photography was invented. In the film era, Ansel Adams wrote about raising underexposed shadows and recovering (or failing to recover) blown highlights — but he didn't blame Kodak when he screwed up. He understood that the sensor (film) would always have limited DR and that exposure was always his responsibility. Indeed, he understood exposure within the DR as a creative/technical decision.

This thread was the A7R. And you jump in try to find every single way possible to minimize the camera or anything it might do for anyone.

Ansel Adams also worked hours in the lab trying to get around DR limitations and trying to come up with chemical baths and so on to as much as he could out of things and I bet you he'd be excited by this A7R. He did try to push tech further ahead.

And there is nothing wrong with trying to push Canon to catch up.
Why don't you just sell all your stuff and go back to the D30? You don't need that 5D3 AF that people pushed for do you? You don't need more than a couple MP? You don't need clean high ISO right? More fps? All garbage right and all those who pushed for 1 series AF in a smaller body were fools right? So dump all your euqipment and go back to the D30 and maybe sell your lenses as well, after all you can find thousands of examples of awesome photos on the net taken with nothing more than the 18-55 IS kit lens.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

The DRiarrhea debate... once again hijacking all topics here on CR. MR would be proud!

“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” ― Mark Twain

Right so simply stating why the A7R might be cool for a Canon uses us hijacking the topic but the first half dozen responders who had nothing to say other than to the bash the OP and the sales, that was all cool. Riiight.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

This might be interesting to some of you (what I found interesting starts at 3 minutes and ends at 25 minutes of the video)
Sony A7 & Sony A7R Hands-on & Tested & Special Launch Event

Woah, the Sony rep at the end of the video said that they will give you a Metabones adapter of your choice with the purchase of a body (no lens).
I know it's been mentioned elsewhere, but it's the first I've heard of it.

pretty awesome!!

edit: someone said it might be for Australia only though

 

[spinworkxroy]

Out of curiosity, was this hand-held or on a tripod?

This was shot handheld.
There is a problem with a camera being this light and resolution this high.

It's VERY hard to get it steady like a dslr which has weight. Because it's so light, you will sway a little and with the resolution so high, any slight movement will result in blur. And because the lens is so small also you can't really hold onto it like a dslr lens either.

Another thing i noticed is the usual "rule" of shutter speed = focal range does NOT apply here..it simply doesn't work.
with the 35mm lens, almost 50% of the time, my shots were blur. i had to increase the shutter speed to at least 2xfocal range before i start getting more keepers. Unfortunately if you shoot in Av mode, the camera will still automatically set it to 1/60 or lower speed...similar to a Canon...but unless you have super steady chef hands..your shots are going to be blur like mine was almost all the time

As for the DR..i didn't bother about that..I never had an issue with the 5D3 DR. To me, if you had to push the DR so much for a photo, you're probably shooting it wrong in the first place.

I also can't comment on the A7R DR SOOC because it has all those DR enhancement and god knows what else turned on or off..i didn't really know how to play around witht he menu system yet and instead of fooling around with it, i'd rather shoot with what little time i had with it.

 

[zlatko]

"Yes we know, and we've said you can take millions of perfectly find landscapes shots with a 5D3, but that doesn't mean that someone might not be able to get something extra out of the A7R compared to the 5D3 at times and if someone wants that what the heck is the big problem?" — The "big problem" is that you repeatedly trash Canon for making deficient sensors when that simply isn't true. There is nothing wrong with wanting more from any brand. As I wrote in another thread, photographers can use absolutely more of everything a camera can do, no matter what camera they are using. So go ahead and wish for more DR if that is important to you (or simply buy the brand that offers it). But don't blame Canon for making deficient sensors when their sensors are perfectly good for a wide variety of tasks and meet the standards of some very demanding photographers (for years now). Moreover, photographers have dealt with limited DR ever since photography was invented. In the film era, Ansel Adams wrote about raising underexposed shadows and recovering (or failing to recover) blown highlights — but he didn't blame Kodak when he screwed up. He understood that the sensor (film) would always have limited DR and that exposure was always his responsibility. Indeed, he understood exposure within the DR as a creative/technical decision.

This thread was the A7R. And you jump in try to find every single way possible to minimize the camera or anything it might do for anyone.

Ansel Adams also worked hours in the lab trying to get around DR limitations and trying to come up with chemical baths and so on to as much as he could out of things and I bet you he'd be excited by this A7R. He did try to push tech further ahead.

And there is nothing wrong with trying to push Canon to catch up.
Why don't you just sell all your stuff and go back to the D30? You don't need that 5D3 AF that people pushed for do you? You don't need more than a couple MP? You don't need clean high ISO right? More fps? All garbage right and all those who pushed for 1 series AF in a smaller body were fools right? So dump all your euqipment and go back to the D30 and maybe sell your lenses as well, after all you can find thousands of examples of awesome photos on the net taken with nothing more than the 18-55 IS kit lens.

Bashing Canon for making deficient sensors is not exactly "pushing Canon to catch up". You're just misleading people to think that Canon makes deficient sensors.

And you're twisting my words again. I haven't tried to find ways to "minimize" the A7/A7r. On the contrary, I think the A7/A7r is a great idea. I would love to use an A7/A7r and would love to see similar cameras from other manufacturers. As I've written before, it is amazing to see the introduction of such a small full-frame system camera with AF. That said, I don't think the A7/A7r should be used as another excuse to bash Canon sensors. That's what you're doing. The sensor is just one part of the A7/A7r and I'm sure it's good. But it doesn't mean Canon makes deficient sensors. For some photographers, the big attraction of the A7/A7r will be that it's so amazingly small and can use almost any lens. They're not looking to Sony to salvage their landscape photos until Canon makes a sensor with more DR. Canon already makes great sensors and photographers are doing great work with them. But apparently there are some sensor critics who can't seem to deal with dynamic range and eagerly look to Sony to save tons of photos for them.

Of course I value the 5D3 AF and all of the other engineering achievements that we put to good use. Don't imagine that they were brought about by anonymous "pushing" on a rumor forum. I'm sure Canon gets direct feedback from very skilled photographers and takes that into account when they prioritize research & development. I'm not saying photographers can't use more DR or anything else. As I've written before, photographers can use improvements in absolutely everything a camera system can do, whether it's DR, AF, highest shutter speed, ergonomics, durability, responsiveness, battery life, battery size, viewfinder, wi-fi, flash, radio control, customizations, shutter blackout, frame rate, high & low ISO, auto ISO, lens quality, lens size, weather sealing, etc., etc., etc. Anything you can think of can be improved, and any such improvement can certainly be put to good use. However, I reject this constant effort to convince people that Canon sensors are deficient just because photographers sometimes fail to expose a landscape properly or don't know how to deal with dynamic range.

 

[AvTvM]

All sensors in current canon DSLRs are deficient. Both, APS-C and "full frame 36X24".
They are significantly sub-par compared to sensors found in competitors cameras. They lack 25% to 50% in resolution and at the same time they lack up to 2 EV of dynamic range, dependung on ISO setting.

Canon's sensors are as deficient today as a car engine would be that delivers only half of the acceleration at half the fuel efficiency of competitors engines.

Canon has only gotten away with this up to now, because
* real life differences are mitigated by best jpg engine and
* all other parameters of their DSLRs, especially user interface - are fully competitive and
* most importantly, because many customers are "locked in" by their high investments in not-deficient canon lenses and system components (speedlites).

Canon is in a dangerous spot today: better sensors can be had now in smaller packages and can be combined with canon lenses. If sony gets its act together, and manages to quickly improve their defivient Mirrorless ff cameras (af, battery charge, EVF) and canon continues to ignore mirrorless or only delivers half-assed products, they could quickly become obsolete. Nokia and blackberry should serve as warning examples.

 

[zlatko]

All sensors in current canon DSLRs are deficient. Both, APS-C and "full frame 36X24".
They are significantly sub-par compared to sensors found in competitors cameras. They lack 25% to 50% in resolution and at the same time they lack up to 2 EV of dynamic range, dependung on ISO setting.

Canon's sensors are as deficient today as a car engine would be that delivers only half of the acceleration at half the fuel efficiency of competitors engines.

Canon has only gotten away with this up to now, because
* real life differences are mitigated by best jpg engine and
* all other parameters of their DSLRs, especially user interface - are fully competitive and
* most importantly, because many customers are "locked in" by their high investments in not-deficient canon lenses and system components (speedlites).

Canon is in a dangerous spot today: better sensors can be had now in smaller packages and can be combined with canon lenses. If sony gets its act together, and manages to quickly improve their defivient Mirrorless ff cameras (af, battery charge, EVF) and canon continues to ignore mirrorless or only delivers half-assed products, they could quickly become obsolete. Nokia and blackberry should serve as warning examples.

Nonsense — from the sensors being "deficient" to customers being "locked in". The sensors perform amazingly well in a wide range of applications. Canon sensors long ago met the quality threshold of very demanding professionals as well as millions of amateurs. Of course the sensors can be improved — everything can be improved — every detail of every camera system can be improved. But calling the sensors "deficient" is nonsense. Canon sensors are described as "deficient" primarily by a few anonymous critics on internet forums. They typically point to DxO tests in support of their claims, not to any real photography.

As for being "locked in" — switching brands is easier than ever. One no longer has to go to the camera shop and get 50% or less of the resale value. Nor does one have to advertise in the newspaper classifieds and hope a willing buyer might notice. With so many online resources for selling used gear, a system switch can be accomplished very quickly. It's easy to recover nearly the full cash value of one's gear and apply it toward comparable gear from another brand. If dynamic range and resolution are so important to someone, and makes a substantial difference to their photography, then being "locked in" is just a sorry, empty excuse for continuing to bash Canon on forums.

 

[Rienzphotoz]

Nonsense — from the sensors being "deficient" to customers being "locked in". The sensors perform amazingly well in a wide range of applications. Canon sensors long ago met the quality threshold of very demanding professionals as well as millions of amateurs. Of course the sensors can be improved — everything can be improved — every detail of every camera system can be improved. But calling the sensors "deficient" is nonsense. Canon sensors are described as "deficient" primarily by a few anonymous critics on internet forums. They typically point to DxO tests in support of their claims, not to any real photography.

As for being "locked in" — switching brands is easier than ever. One no longer has to go to the camera shop and get 50% or less of the resale value. Nor does one have to advertise in the newspaper classifieds and hope a willing buyer might notice. With so many online resources for selling used gear, a system switch can be accomplished very quickly. It's easy to recover nearly the full cash value of one's gear and apply it toward comparable gear from another brand. If dynamic range and resolution are so important to someone, and makes a substantial difference to their photography, then being "locked in" is just a sorry, empty excuse for continuing to bash Canon on forums.

Well said! ... I use both Canon & Nikon DSLR's and this BS about better/lesser DR in sensor is nothing more than incompetent photographers trying to make excuses for lack of skill. Also, being "tied into a particular system" is another BS argument, because more people buy Canon as their first DSLR then Nikon & Sony combined ... these first time DSLR users do not have any prior investment in Canon gear, yet more people buy a Canon DSLR.

 

[drjlo]

I tried it with the Canon 50mm f1.4 and the metabones mk3...it's soooo slow it's impossible to really use for work..average 2 sec AF.

I also tried the A mount adapter with the Zeiss 24-70 f2.8. This is SUPER fast..like a 5d3 but it's basically the same AF as a99 so it's expected. however, it is soooo front heavy..it's super uncomfortable to hold.

That's disappointng to hear about Canon lens being slow with adapter and how big the Zeiss FE 55 mm is. If the former was faster or the latter smaller, I would be SO much more excited :'(