Sony Sensors Coming to Canon DSLRs? [CR1]
- Thread starter Canon Rumors
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Having read the decline of sales of p&s and SLRs leads me to believe that cost is driving Canon, Nikon, Hassleblad and other companies to buy their sensors from Sony.
Think of it in the same way PCs in the 70s used to have multiple CPU manufacturers and now it is essentially Intel and to some extent AMD.
If this means Canon will get the technological advantage enjoyed by Sony and Nikon then good for us.
Think of it in the same way PCs in the 70s used to have multiple CPU manufacturers and now it is essentially Intel and to some extent AMD.
If this means Canon will get the technological advantage enjoyed by Sony and Nikon then good for us.
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dgatwood said:Famateur said:"You keep using that wordinconceivableinnovation. I do not think it means what you think it means."
If you mean low ISO dynamic range, huge megapixel counts or a radical new sensor design, okay. In my book, though, DPAF is clearly in the "innovation" category.
It's certainly an interesting approach, but in my mind, innovation is more than just doing something in a new way. Innovation is defined by the "aha" moment where the advantages to the new approach are immediately so obvious that you can't imagine having done it the old way.
The thing is, Fuji showed the first compact camera with on-die phase detection AF back in 2010. Canon has been playing catch-up ever since. Yes, DPAF has an advantage over dedicated focus pixels in that you don't lose the light that would otherwise fall on half of certain pixels, though that difference will matter less and less as resolution increases—but DPAF still feels more like a way to work around Fuji's on-sensor phase detection patents while still achieving the same benefits, rather than true innovation.
If Canon wants folks like me to see them as still innovating in the area of sensors, they should:
- Start with a backside illumination design.
- Etch both sides of the sensor, with vias for every pixel.
- Put per-pixel buffers on the reverse side of the sensor die, thus giving you a true global shutter.
- Put a sizable heat sink on the reverse side of the sensor to dissipate the heat from the back-side buffers, thus reducing thermal noise.
- Use one or more on-die ADC circuits for maximum accuracy and minimum noise.
- Take advantage of the global shutter to eliminate dynamic range limitations and remove the need for setting ISO values entirely.
That last one is the jaw dropper. The benefits of a global shutter for video are obvious. The benefits for stills are even bigger, though, and I don't think anybody is really taking advantage of that yet, which seems bizarre to me.
The entire reason image sensors have limited dynamic range is twofold: because the ADC can provide only a certain number of bits of precision, and because when the full-well capacity of a pixel is exceeded, that pixel cannot hold any more photons. However, if you can get the read noise levels low enough, you can just sample the pixels several times per exposure, and sum the results in a wider register. You can then make clever use of Huffman coding or run-length encoding to minimize the impact of all those extra zeroes, and you'll be able to accurately reproduce everything from a single photon all the way up to the brightest light.
That would be innovation. Real innovation changes things in ways that are jaw-dropping and earth-shattering. Using DPAF to do automatic AFMA might do that, and using DPAF to correct the slightly-off phase detect focusing results after the mirror goes up might do that, but DPAF by itself doesn't do that, IMO. DPAF is clever, but it is far from pushing the limits of technology.
Just my $0.02.
Well reasoned and compelling argument. By that definition, I'd have to agree.
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As others, I also think that it would be great if Canon starts using Sony sensors.
At the same time, though, I have a hard time believing that it will happen.
It's maybe possible that only a single DSLR model could use a high-megapixel Sony sensor (a new 1Ds model?).
I don't see them doing an en-mass switch to Sony, though.
According to some industry estimates, Canon's sensor business is a billion dollar business.
Corporations just don't walk away from a business like that.
At the same time, though, I have a hard time believing that it will happen.
It's maybe possible that only a single DSLR model could use a high-megapixel Sony sensor (a new 1Ds model?).
I don't see them doing an en-mass switch to Sony, though.
According to some industry estimates, Canon's sensor business is a billion dollar business.
Corporations just don't walk away from a business like that.
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justaCanonuser
Grab your camera, go out and shoot!
Marauder said:
+1 I agree, too.
The current situation in the sensor market looks like a classic one in electronics industry: Canon has the oldest sensor production line compared with Sony and Samsung with which they leaded the pack for many years but now lost leadership. Given the current massive decline in the camera sales market (see e.g. CIPA 1933-2014 sales graph in http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html) it becomes clear why Canon currently holds back with a massive and risky investment in a completely new production line. I expect them to try to survive with their current 5 micrometer technology for bigger sensors as long as they can sell enough cameras.
Hopefully they will keep their own sensor production and return in a few years with a then leading technology. Otherwise, on the long run, we customers will face Sony turning into a sort of Intel of sensor production, maybe Samsung as the only big competitor (the new APS sensor of the NX1 seems to be extremely good). Like in the computer market, this would slow down technological progress until something revolutionary happens: new devices such as smartphone and tablets dethrone Intel because they ignored this new market too long.
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I don't think Canon will use Sony sensors in pro/flagship level bodies, I just don't. Proprietary tech, pride, 'the Canon Premium', etc. all tip the scales very heavily away from bringing in Sony to assist. In lesser trimlines, the large sensor compacts, possibly even a Rebel -- I think Sony involvement could occur. I know Rebels are cash cows, but Canon's pride with Rebels is far, far less.
But, in using an analogy to PCs, Apple has had to wrestle with similar tradeoffs. Switching to Intel chips was considered a massive 'pride concession' at the time, but they felt it was necessary. But it's not the same as, say, seeing Apple give up on their OS and using Windows exclusively. For a thousand reasons, Apple didn't do that, but it flags a point that's applicable here: certain aspects of the product are essential to defining their company's identity, essential to differentiation, and essential to getting the sales price they want. I would argue that sensors are near the top of that list.
- A
But, in using an analogy to PCs, Apple has had to wrestle with similar tradeoffs. Switching to Intel chips was considered a massive 'pride concession' at the time, but they felt it was necessary. But it's not the same as, say, seeing Apple give up on their OS and using Windows exclusively. For a thousand reasons, Apple didn't do that, but it flags a point that's applicable here: certain aspects of the product are essential to defining their company's identity, essential to differentiation, and essential to getting the sales price they want. I would argue that sensors are near the top of that list.
- A
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ahsanford said:
Fyi: This isn't about pride, it's about making money. So on the one hand, Canon would get a dent in the "tech leader" department, but wouldn't loose a whole market segment. And if Canon's own high mp sensors would be clearly inferior to Sony, the loss of reputation would be even larger.
I find the Apple switching from PowerPC to Intel quite valid - they have their image and MacOS, Canon has their lenses, service, and usability that will keep users from jumping ship just because the sensor is the same.
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Hey all. As mush as I would love Canon to use the alleged Sony 46MP sensor, it doesn't make sense for Sony to
share if they are going after the FF market. If they made a deal with Canon ( & Nikon ) that only they can make mirror less cameras with this sensor, that might work, all though that might also be considered collusion which is illegal in some countries.
share if they are going after the FF market. If they made a deal with Canon ( & Nikon ) that only they can make mirror less cameras with this sensor, that might work, all though that might also be considered collusion which is illegal in some countries.
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Maybe I'm just naive, but who makes RED's sensors, and why doesn't Canon go to them over Sony? The RED Dragon at roughly APS-H size beat out the full-frame Nikon d-810, according to ::cough:: dxomark. Anyone know, does Sony make RED's sensors too?
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Who doesn't really matter - provide proper design specs and every major foundry can make the sensor.IglooEater said:
Making sure that the device your blueprint describes actually behaves the way you want is one part of the challenge. The other would involve not infringing anyone's patents, at least not without having enough bargaining chips to deal with that.
And then there is the "not invented here"-syndrome that makes sticking to the highly serial readout and old lines appealing.
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Phase detect - yes. DualPixel Auto Focus however as concept has been made by ONLY one vendor of 4/3 camera.... I believe it was Fujitsu... not sure about the name.Lawliet said:
IglooEater said:
The vendor is CMOSIS ;-)
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