Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800

[eml58]

Sony will have a 15 lens lineup for A7, A7R and A7S within a year. They published a roadmap and are sticking to it.
I have yet to see a roadmap from Canon. Would love to know in advance, what they want to bring next.

Was trying to stay out of this, but.

AvTvM, comparing Canon's & Sony's current & future Lens line up (by the inference of Canon/Sony roadmaps), is a little laughable.

Canon have perhaps ?? the best overall offering of Lenses in the current market, it's arguable I know, but if it's not the best, it's as close as any Canon user really needs, although we are a hard bunch to truly satisfy us Photographers. On release of the 5DMK III & 1Dx I believe Canon had something in the order of +60 EF lenses available to the Market, excludes anything that is EF but not Current, no idea what that number is.

I bought the a7r when released, I'm happy with the Camera for what I purchased it for, but Lenses ?? Sony just did an abysmal job for the future of the a7r in this area, they had 3 ?? Lenses available (excluding crop lenses not made for the a7r specifically), 3 lenses, maybe they had 4, that's it, and the best of those were the ones made by Zeiss, the 35 & later the 55.

Roadmap ?? next 12 months ??, the a7r has been in my hands for getting close to 12 months, and your talking in wondrous terms of "The Roadmap" to 15 lenses in the Next ?? 12 months ??

Personally I believe Sony put together a reasonably good product with the a7r, it's no 1Dx killer, but it will have it's share of a Market area, but with currently 4 to 6 Lenses available that do it justice, and I'm talking about Camera specific lenses made for the a7r, you know, like the EF lenses from Canon that are built specific to FF, specific to the current range of FF cameras that Canon put into the Market, what real future can the a7r have ??, wait 2 years for a choice of 15 Lenses ??

I imagine Sony will do what they unfortunately always do, another year down the road, 15 Lenses available to the a7r system, Sony will ditch the a7r manufacture & you will need to choose the new Sony whatever, maybe the 15 Lenses will fit the new Whatever, maybe not.

 

[Sella174]

If I have to prove to you multi-million dollar firms conduct (effective) market research, then I give up.

I study what people/societies/companies/governments do, instead of what they say they do. My observations clearly show that Canon is marking time, because they have either absolutely no idea what the market wants, or they are incapable of providing it. Either way, a failure of effective market research.

Do you also ask for proof that the earth revolves around the sun?

Depends on the point of reference: since the centre of the universe is unknown, everything revolves around everything else.

How about a circumstantial evidence? Sony is down in the stocks and Canon turned a profit. Proof enough for you?

Those two "facts" are not equal: either directly compare stocks to stocks, or profit margins to profit margins.

Marketing (sic= should be market research) dept doesn't count as the few people. They record what people want, they don't impose their own wants.

Then (a) why does Canon cripple their cameras, and (b) doesn't bring out EF-S L-primes?

Trendsetter based marketing is not a basic marketing theory. Is it what they taught you at school? You should ask for your money back.

The fashion industry, Apple, Microsoft, BMW ... you listening, 'cause you're wrong ... not.

This is a very risky technique that will work only under certain conditions: Is the number of trendsetter significantly large? How likely are they to influence the rest of the market? Can the company sustain the slow growth in the beginning until the trend catches? What is the likelihood of competition waiting the initial lag phase and then ramping up just as the log phase is reached.

Is that not why marketing dept. receive the big bucks, to negate the risks?

Yes, that is one possibility. That is why I generalized it to an economically valid reason. However, unlike you I don't have access to Canon's business secrets to state it as a fact.

See above.

Don't make such comments that make you look silly just for the sake of arguments. So this is why Sony isn't bringing out FF E-mount lenses? Because very few people need them?

Haha!

I am guessing you have never used a macro lens, or shoot small birds with a 70-200 f/2.8?

Macro lens: almost every week. 70-200mm f/2.8: I preferred my 400mm for LBJ's, and now use a Minolta RF 500mm with 2X converter.

You are stating the obvious, and acting smug for doing so :. Of course the different A7 cameras cater to different markets; my point was, bringing out the A7s while the A7/r setup is still lacking the lenses might imply that the stills market isn't as profitable as they hoped, so they are trying to boost the entire line by bringing out the video-centric model.

And you're stating your same argument ...

 

[100]

Sony will have a 15 lens lineup for A7, A7R and A7S within a year. They published a roadmap and are sticking to it.
I have yet to see a roadmap from Canon. Would love to know in advance, what they want to bring next.

Can you provide a link to a roadmap published by Sony?
I saw the one below, but the people at SonyAlpha rumors say it's "almost certainly fake".

source: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/almost-certainly-fake-but-i-love-it-the-super-sony-fe-lens-roadmap/

 

[100]

Do you also ask for proof that the earth revolves around the sun?

Depends on the point of reference: since the centre of the universe is unknown, everything revolves around everything else.

Unless your opinion is the center of the universe the sun doesn’t revolve around the earth.

 

[Sella174]

Do you also ask for proof that the earth revolves around the sun?

Depends on the point of reference: since the centre of the universe is unknown, everything revolves around everything else.

Unless your opinion is the center of the universe the sun doesn’t revolve around the earth.

It is always nice when people react in a predictable manner. (Did you even remotely understand what I wrote ... about relativity?)

 

[Loswr]

I study what people/societies/companies/governments do, instead of what they say they do. My observations clearly show that Canon is marking time, because they have either absolutely no idea what the market wants, or they are incapable of providing it. Either way, a failure of effective market research.

...

Then (a) why does Canon cripple their cameras, and (b) doesn't bring out EF-S L-primes?

In fact, (a) is merely your personal, biased viewpoint. Canon produces cameras that meet the needs of the majority of dSLR buyers worldwide, and they've done so for well over 10 years. Regarding (b), obviously Canon has determined that a line of L-series lenses which work only on APS-C cameras would not add to overall profits. Most dSLR buyers have only the kit lens (sometimes two) that came with the camera. Many (most?) of those who buy multiple lenses aspire to a FF body, meaning less motivation to buy expensive lenses that would be incompatible (and from Canon's point of view, the converse is good – having EF lenses makes it easier for crop users to buy a more expensive, higher profit margin FF camera).

My observations clearly show that you haven't got a clue about Canon's marketing strategy, most likely because you can't seem to accept that your own personal viewpoint is not aligned with the viewpoint of the majority of camera buyers. You're part of a very small minority of the camera market – deal with it.

 

[100]

Do you also ask for proof that the earth revolves around the sun?

Depends on the point of reference: since the centre of the universe is unknown, everything revolves around everything else.

Unless your opinion is the center of the universe the sun doesn’t revolve around the earth.

It is always nice when people react in a predictable manner. (Did you even remotely understand what I wrote ... about relativity?)

No matter what other people say, you have to disagree, even about things like the earth revolving around the sun…
Gravity is also pretty predictable, but in your relative reality Canons marketing department is probably an ignorant black hole with a mass far greater than the mass of the G-type main-sequence star we usually just call "sun".

 

[3kramd5]

Re: DOUBLE SMACKDOWN on Neuro

Exactly. It may not be as pretty as a low ISO studio shot, but you can't very well bring birds in flight into a studio setting. Noise > unintended motion blur.

Get a bigger flash

LOL! I'd love me something like that

 

[Dylan777]

Sony will have a 15 lens lineup for A7, A7R and A7S within a year. They published a roadmap and are sticking to it.
I have yet to see a roadmap from Canon. Would love to know in advance, what they want to bring next.

Was trying to stay out of this, but.

AvTvM, comparing Canon's & Sony's current & future Lens line up (by the inference of Canon/Sony roadmaps), is a little laughable.

Canon have perhaps ?? the best overall offering of Lenses in the current market, it's arguable I know, but if it's not the best, it's as close as any Canon user really needs, although we are a hard bunch to truly satisfy us Photographers. On release of the 5DMK III & 1Dx I believe Canon had something in the order of +60 EF lenses available to the Market, excludes anything that is EF but not Current, no idea what that number is.

I bought the a7r when released, I'm happy with the Camera for what I purchased it for, but Lenses ?? Sony just did an abysmal job for the future of the a7r in this area, they had 3 ?? Lenses available (excluding crop lenses not made for the a7r specifically), 3 lenses, maybe they had 4, that's it, and the best of those were the ones made by Zeiss, the 35 & later the 55.

Roadmap ?? next 12 months ??, the a7r has been in my hands for getting close to 12 months, and your talking in wondrous terms of "The Roadmap" to 15 lenses in the Next ?? 12 months ??

Personally I believe Sony put together a reasonably good product with the a7r, it's no 1Dx killer, but it will have it's share of a Market area, but with currently 4 to 6 Lenses available that do it justice, and I'm talking about Camera specific lenses made for the a7r, you know, like the EF lenses from Canon that are built specific to FF, specific to the current range of FF cameras that Canon put into the Market, what real future can the a7r have ??, wait 2 years for a choice of 15 Lenses ??

I imagine Sony will do what they unfortunately always do, another year down the road, 15 Lenses available to the a7r system, Sony will ditch the a7r manufacture & you will need to choose the new Sony whatever, maybe the 15 Lenses will fit the new Whatever, maybe not.

Just want to add to eml58's comment. I'm still waiting for FE UWA from zeiss/sony :

 

[sdsr]

If I have to prove to you multi-million dollar firms conduct (effective) market research, then I give up.

I study what people/societies/companies/governments do, instead of what they say they do. My observations clearly show that Canon is marking time, because they have either absolutely no idea what the market wants, or they are incapable of providing it. Either way, a failure of effective market research.

How do you know what "the market" wants, that Canon doesn't know what "the market" wants, or that Canon knows but can't or won't comply? Through your "observations" of what, exactly?

 

[unfocused]

I study what people/societies/companies/governments do, instead of what they say they do. My observations clearly show that Canon is marking time, because they have either absolutely no idea what the market wants, or they are incapable of providing it. Either way, a failure of effective market research.

Here we go again. What metric are you using to determine what the market wants? Because sales figures show Canon is doing a far better job than either Nikon or Sony of satisfying what the market wants.

Then (a) why does Canon cripple their cameras, and (b) doesn't bring out EF-S L-primes?

(a) I love it when people talk about "crippling" a product. This is simply code for saying that you want to pay for a t3i and get a 1Dx. Every company with every product line differentiates their products and models.

(b) Prime lenses are a niche market. APS-C cameras are mass market products. It's likely that Canon's marketing department has done the research and found that there simply isn't a large enough market for "L" primes that function only on APS-C cameras. More importantly, this is only relevant with wide-angle lenses. Every prime lens Canon makes will fit on an APS-C body, including all the "L" versions.

What doesn't exist are equivalent EF-S primes for common wide-angle focal lengths, and even in that case, you could argue that a 24mm prime is close enough to a 35mm to cover at least that range. Now, 24mm and 28mm you can't cover. But for every other focal length, existing Canon EF lenses are more than sufficient.

In fact, one could easily argue that the existing range offers very good value for APS-C users. For $800 you can buy a 200mm f 2.8 prime that scales out to the same focal length as a $7,000 full frame lens (although admittedly you lose IS). Or, for $1,500 a 300mm F4 with IS that scales out somewhere between a $6,000 400mm and a $10,000 500mm.

 

[Radiating]

I've waited a long time for Nikon to recapture the lead on Nikon and their 36 mp camera. And now I read that Nikon will introduce an upgrade to the 800e in June. Why am I not jumping ship? I do have a lot of canon glass and have been a local customer. I own the mk III and 6d and I love the images .BUTT, COME ON ALREADY cCanon. Get your stuff together!

You do realize that there are only 6 lenses made in the world that can take advantage of more than 22.3 megapixels right? And then only when they are perfectly stopped down on a tripod.

Canon is not releasing a camera that has more than 22.3 megapixels because it is stupid to do so. It is like releasing a 8k TV when our content is barley HD, with a few 4k options, and a very small hand full of 8k options.

This is not a hard concept to understand. When your input for your device is around 10-25 megapixels in 99% of cases, having a much higher resolution is stupid.

If you still don't understand here's a photo with a Sigma 70mm Macro, taken on a tripod, this is one of the sharpest lenses in the world. One of the images is from a 5D Mark III, the other is from a D800. The 5D Mark III image has been scaled up to 36 megapixels.

100% crop

There is no difference.

If you are doing the kind of work that really does require 36 megapixels, and you have the technique and lenses to back it up then canon will soon be releasing a 40 megapixel specialty use camera for you, but for 99% of photographers anything more than 22 megapixels is a waste and a burden and makes your camera a worse tool.

 

[sdsr]

I bought the a7r when released, I'm happy with the Camera for what I purchased it for, but Lenses ?? Sony just did an abysmal job for the future of the a7r in this area, they had 3 ?? Lenses available (excluding crop lenses not made for the a7r specifically), 3 lenses, maybe they had 4, that's it, and the best of those were the ones made by Zeiss, the 35 & later the 55.

If Sony's mirrorless cameras, like their Alpha-mounts, had IBIS, there would be a fairly easy temporary (or even permanent) solution courtesy of their best Alpha-E adapter, which provides AF for both their AF mechanisms and which evidently works at least as well as the AF on their Alpha-mount cameras. Apparently there are lots of excellent Alpha and Minolta lenses out there, but because they were designed for bodies with IBIS none of them have IS, which reduces their appeal somewhat (esp. the longer ones). What's more, the adapter removes one of the big advantages of mirrorless cameras - on-sensor focusing, with focus points all over the image area.

So, no matter what, unless you're happy with the small number of FE lenses, the appeal of these cameras is limited to those who are willing to fool around with adapters, manual focusing, etc. I am (I rather like the manual process anyway, and it's far easier on mirrorless bodies), but I rather doubt many are - surely not enough to make this line a commercial success.

 

[Orangutan]

If I have to prove to you multi-million dollar firms conduct (effective) market research, then I give up.

I study what people/societies/companies/governments do, instead of what they say they do. My observations clearly show that Canon is marking time, because they have either absolutely no idea what the market wants, or they are incapable of providing it. Either way, a failure of effective market research.

How do you know what "the market" wants, that Canon doesn't know what "the market" wants, or that Canon knows but can't or won't comply? Through your "observations" of what, exactly?

He has a full-length couture mirror.

 

[Sella174]

In fact, (a) is merely your personal, biased viewpoint. Canon produces cameras that meet the needs of the majority of dSLR buyers worldwide, and they've done so for well over 10 years.

(a) I love it when people talk about "crippling" a product. This is simply code for saying that you want to pay for a t3i and get a 1Dx. Every company with every product line differentiates their products and models.

Kelvin WB is not available on the "entry-level" cameras, yet it is simply a piece of coding that is deliberately disabled/not included. Or the (apparent - I don't own one, just read about it on the forums) throttling of the SD slot in the 5D3 camera. Why is this done, as neither of these examples will turn said camera into a cheap-o 1DX equivalent camera?

Regarding (b), obviously Canon has determined that a line of L-series lenses which work only on APS-C cameras would not add to overall profits. Most dSLR buyers have only the kit lens (sometimes two) that came with the camera. Many (most?) of those who buy multiple lenses aspire to a FF body, meaning less motivation to buy expensive lenses that would be incompatible (and from Canon's point of view, the converse is good – having EF lenses makes it easier for crop users to buy a more expensive, higher profit margin FF camera).

So what you are saying is that (a) Canon is primarily interested in the lucrative "entry-level", one kit lens-only market, thus per implication that the enthusiast with three or so lenses is unimportant; and that (b) the objective is to get everyone to eventually "upgrade" to FF gear, where the profit margin for Canon is ludicrously high. Are you serious? And are you genuinely OK with this?

(b) Prime lenses are a niche market. ...

Here we run again around the niche marketplace ... no thanks.

 

[Sella174]

He has a full-length couture mirror.

No, because it wouldn't work ... my kind doesn't reflect in mirrors.

 

[Orangutan]

Kelvin WB is not available on the "entry-level" cameras, yet it is simply a piece of coding that is deliberately disabled/not included.

Some advanced features are left out, in part, because they generate expensive support calls. E.g.. AFMA is not useful to many Rebel Users, but would probably generate a lot of self-inflicted focus wounds.

Or the (apparent - I don't own one, just read about it on the forums) throttling of the SD slot in the 5D3 camera. Why is this done, as neither of these examples will turn said camera into a cheap-o 1DX equivalent camera?

If true, this would be a legitimate gripe: a 5D should not be throttled.

So what you are saying is that (a) Canon is primarily interested in the lucrative "entry-level", one kit lens-only market high volume market and thus per implication that the enthusiast with three or so lenses is unimportant; another market segment to be addressed separately, and that (b) the objective is to get everyone to eventually "upgrade" to FF gear, where the profit margin for Canon is ludicrously high almost as high as Apple's profits on the iPhone.

FTFY

Are you serious? And are you genuinely OK with this?

Last time I checked, the Universe didn't care whether I'm OK with profit-seeking behavior on the part of a faceless multi-national corporation who sell a product I can live without.

 

[Orangutan]

He has a full-length couture mirror.

my kind doesn't reflect

I've noticed

 

[Sella174]

Some advanced features are left out, in part, because they generate expensive support calls. E.g.. AFMA is not useful to many Rebel Users, but would probably generate a lot of self-inflicted focus wounds.

Classifying a "feature" as "advanced" is irrelevant. What matters is whether it is purely firmware-based and excluded. If so, then the camera IS deliberately crippled ... and thus both neuroanatomist and unfocused are wrong. So what do YOU want to be: right or wrong?

 

[Loswr]

Kelvin WB is not available on the "entry-level" cameras, yet it is simply a piece of coding that is deliberately disabled/not included. Or the (apparent - I don't own one, just read about it on the forums) throttling of the SD slot in the 5D3 camera. Why is this done, as neither of these examples will turn said camera into a cheap-o 1DX equivalent camera?

If you ask a typical 'entry level' user (those who buy the majority of cameras), may very well think "Kelvin" is a character on the TV show Lost, or an offensive guard for the Pittsburgh Steelers. Of those who know that it's a unit of temperature (albeit one they've never seen on a thermometer), almost none of them will associate it with color temperature for white balance (assuming they even set WB to anything other than Auto, assuming they even get their cameras out of fully automatic mode). Maybe you feel the need for Kelvin WB on an entry-level dSLR…but once again, you are in the minority (an even more miniscule minority than usual, in this case).

As for the SD slot in the 5DIII, most likely the camera had simply entered the design-locked period of development when the Secure Digital UHS-I standard came out. Perhaps it escaped your notice that the SD slots in the 1DsIII and 1D IV are similarly 'throttled'. The 6D is compliant with UHS-I and supports faster SD card writes, as are all cameras of a more recent design age than the 5DIII (e.g. 70D, T5i/650D, EOS M).

So what you are saying is that (a) Canon is primarily interested in the lucrative "entry-level", one kit lens-only market, thus per implication that the enthusiast with three or so lenses is unimportant; and that (b) the objective is to get everyone to eventually "upgrade" to FF gear, where the profit margin for Canon is ludicrously high. Are you serious? And are you genuinely OK with this?

For the 'enthusiast with three or so lenses' there are EF-S lenses that deliver excellent IQ (10-22, 17-55/2.8, 15-85), and there are L-series lenses. Canon has provided those folks with plenty of options.

Canon is primarily interested making a profit. A market segment is important to them only insofar as it has the potential to generate that profit. Whether or not you, me, or anyone else is 'genuinely OK with' that is totally irrelevant to Canon.