The Best of Photokina 2016, and a Few Things That Make You Go Hmmmm

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
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Jul 21, 2010
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douglaurent said:
I have spent more than 10.000 bucks for the 5D4 and 1DX2 - not to speak of 100+x other Canon products I have bought - and think it would have been nice if they have invested 2 dollars to print brochures. But again missing prints are just a small piece of the Canon problem puzzle.

If you mean, the problem you have with Canon, fine. But other than your opinion (oh, and that of a couple of people you know), where is the evidence of this 'problem puzzle' for the ILC market leader that continues to gain market share?

But hey, keep on bitching here on CR about how Canon hurt your feelings and deprived you of a brochure. I'm sure it'll help.

Here's an idea – since Sony gave you a brochure and Canon didn't, why don't you toss all your Canon gear in the rubbish bin and buy all Sony replacements. That'll show 'em how bad they screwed up by not printing a brochure for you!
 

d

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douglaurent said:
Sony gave out a brilliant 92-page system catalogue at Photokina, with lots of details you will never find if you go on a website. This is professional and complete service and serves all customers. Give some catalogue like this by Canon to any owner or potential buyer of a 5D4, and most will love and keep it, as it's a completely different feeling and insight as a website - and it will generate more sales of accessoires. Each printed copy will be worth it.

douglaurent said:
I have spent more than 10.000 bucks for the 5D4 and 1DX2 - not to speak of 100+x other Canon products I have bought...

Seems you yourself are evidence Canon don't need catalogues and brochures to make sales!
 

Don Haines

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Old Sarge said:
Don Haines said:
Aglet said:
d said:
douglaurent said:
Sony gave out a brilliant 92-page system catalogue at Photokina, with lots of details you will never find if you go on a website. This is professional and complete service and serves all customers. Give some catalogue like this by Canon to any owner or potential buyer of a 5D4, and most will love and keep it, as it's a completely different feeling and insight as a website - and it will generate more sales of accessoires. Each printed copy will be worth it.

:eek:

Think you might be taking your printed materials a little too seriously there, Doug.

I think Doug's got a reasonable point ..
and he's not arguing it like he just dined on Imodium and crack.

printed brochures and catalogs have a marketing value with a different (& lasting?) impact.
And they're more acceptable to read while you're in the bathroom. ;D

not everyone wants to browse info on a friggin smartphone but many co's are adjusting their information presentations to little else.
is Canon now marketing just to those kids?
Personally, I think the balance is somewhere in the middle. I think we have gone too far..... I like a printed manual for my camera!
Amen and Amen! But being a belt and suspenders man, I like having a pdf also.
yes!
One of the first things I did when I got my 7D2 was to print the AF manual so I could have a copy in the field..... But I also use the PDF on the computer.....

It does not have to be an "all or nothing" proposition....
 

scyrene

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brad-man said:
Canon certainly has the expertise to produce small and sharp M primes between f/1.8 and 2.4.

...

Unfortunately, their bean counting wizards are probably advising against it, so we'll have to wait and see.

Translation: it may well not be worth their while - they could do it, but might well not sell enough to bother. Call it bean counting if you like, but it's just business.

(Hopefully they will decide it is worthwhile, or if not, a third party manufacturer will).
 

scyrene

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douglaurent said:
At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.

Most people don't have 4K tvs1 or monitors and there's very little 4K content out there2; but OMG not providing *affordable* 8K before 2020 (which is only just over 3 years away) means they're slow! Um...

:eek:

1 https://www.statista.com/statistics/422402/4k-ultra-hd-tv-shipments-worldwide/ - growth in 4K sales has been substantial, but the projected share is still under 50% for 2016; given most people aren't buying a new tv every year, even at that rate, how long before most people own one?
2 http://www.techradar.com/news/television/ultra-hd-everything-you-need-to-know-about-4k-tv-1048954 "There's actually not much 4K broadcast content to be had right now".
 
Oct 7, 2013
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scyrene said:
douglaurent said:
At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.

Most people don't have 4K tvs1 or monitors and there's very little 4K content out there2; but OMG not providing *affordable* 8K before 2020 (which is only just over 3 years away) means they're slow! Um...

:eek:

1 https://www.statista.com/statistics/422402/4k-ultra-hd-tv-shipments-worldwide/ - growth in 4K sales has been substantial, but the projected share is still under 50% for 2016; given most people aren't buying a new tv every year, even at that rate, how long before most people own one?
2 http://www.techradar.com/news/television/ultra-hd-everything-you-need-to-know-about-4k-tv-1048954 "There's actually not much 4K broadcast content to be had right now".

When you think Full HD is enough, why do you shoot with cameras that have more than 2 megapixels? 8K video is just in between the 5D4 and 5DsR photos, so nothing special for all who need to crop, oversample etc etc. Photographers do always forget that filmmakers like to have the same options.

Canon is good if they release 8K in 2020, when nobody else does it by then. But unfortunately in 2020, probably 5 other companies do already have 8K cameras before Canon - who did display in 2016 they could do it. That's the lame thing about it.
 

Don Haines

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scyrene said:
douglaurent said:
At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.

Most people don't have 4K tvs1 or monitors and there's very little 4K content out there2; but OMG not providing *affordable* 8K before 2020 (which is only just over 3 years away) means they're slow!
I would side with Doug here..... sort of...... I think they have the ability to do it now, except for two big problems, heat and battery life. As anyone who wore the battery belt with an ENG camera knows, battery problems can be solved with an external battery.... but heat, there's another problem! How do you dissipate the heat, yet still maintain some degree of sealing? The overheating issue is what held up Canon 4K in DSLRs and will probably do the same for 8K.

4K has now become an expected feature in new cameras. Yes, it is true that most people do not have 4K displays yet (myself included), but we are not looking at a sudden shift from 2K to 4K. Gradually devices will wear out or be upgraded to new devices, and the new ones will most likely have 4K capability. Right now 2K is standard and 4K is leading edge, but eventually 4K will have become standard and 8K will be leading edge.

4K has been out for about 5 years now in consumer devices. My bet is that within 2 years we will be seeing 8K in
consumer devices... it's already planned for phones! Will it be in the 1DX3 and 5D5? who knows..... but it will come!
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
neuroanatomist said:
douglaurent said:
I have spent more than 10.000 bucks for the 5D4 and 1DX2 - not to speak of 100+x other Canon products I have bought - and think it would have been nice if they have invested 2 dollars to print brochures. But again missing prints are just a small piece of the Canon problem puzzle.

If you mean, the problem you have with Canon, fine. But other than your opinion (oh, and that of a couple of people you know), where is the evidence of this 'problem puzzle' for the ILC market leader that continues to gain market share?

But hey, keep on bitching here on CR about how Canon hurt your feelings and deprived you of a brochure. I'm sure it'll help.

Here's an idea – since Sony gave you a brochure and Canon didn't, why don't you toss all your Canon gear in the rubbish bin and buy all Sony replacements. That'll show 'em how bad they screwed up by not printing a brochure for you!

Canon sells significantly less cameras. They have the problem, not me, because I can work with systems of many brands I own. I just would prefer to work with one brand - like anybody else who doesnt want to carry 3 cameras and 2x as many lenses for something that could have been easier.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
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d said:
douglaurent said:
Sony gave out a brilliant 92-page system catalogue at Photokina, with lots of details you will never find if you go on a website. This is professional and complete service and serves all customers. Give some catalogue like this by Canon to any owner or potential buyer of a 5D4, and most will love and keep it, as it's a completely different feeling and insight as a website - and it will generate more sales of accessoires. Each printed copy will be worth it.

douglaurent said:
I have spent more than 10.000 bucks for the 5D4 and 1DX2 - not to speak of 100+x other Canon products I have bought...

Seems you yourself are evidence Canon don't need catalogues and brochures to make sales!

I am the best evidence why Canon needs to improve and keep up on many levels, as instead of 2x 1DXII and 3x 5D4 I have just bought ONE of each. In the last years (I do rent out as well) I also bought 60+x Sony E-Mount, Micro Four Thirds etc products I wouldn't have bought if Canon would have released similar products.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
Here's an idea – since Sony gave you a brochure and Canon didn't, why don't you toss all your Canon gear in the rubbish bin and buy all Sony replacements. That'll show 'em how bad they screwed up by not printing a brochure for you!
[/quote]

If you would have read my posts, you would know that missing brochures are just one example of Canon's limitation game. You can also replace it with button assignment: in a Sony camera you can choose nearly any function for nearly any button. In a Canon camera you can choose a few random functions on some random buttons. If it wasn't 2016 and wouldn't have seen what other companies do and what's possible, I wouldn't complain.
 

neuroanatomist

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douglaurent said:
Canon sells significantly less cameras. They have the problem, not me...

True, in the absolute sense the entire ILC market is declining, due to factors outside of Canon's control. Printing brochures or putting 4K in more cameras is not going to help that. But, based on factors within their control – what features they include in their cameras, how they market them, etc. – compared to their competition Canon remains the ILC market leader is gaining market share. So while the industry as a whole has a problem (everyone is selling less cameras), Canon seems to be addressing it well (they're selling more cameras than anyone else). Even to you, apparently...so your continued purchasing of their products renders your ongoing complaints meaningless.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
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Jul 21, 2010
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douglaurent said:
I am the best evidence why Canon needs to improve and keep up on many levels, as instead of 2x 1DXII and 3x 5D4 I have just bought ONE of each.

No, you're merely an anecdote.
 

arthurbikemad

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Jul 19, 2015
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Makes me laugh people who go on about printed manuals in the digital age, for a start Canon are wise not printing a manual, after all the first time the firmware is updated the manual is toilet paper!
 

gsealy

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Jan 3, 2014
345
14
The 2 biggest announcements for me are the Fuji medium format GHX and the Panasonic GH5. They will be available in 2017. I'm looking forward to the reviews.
 

gsealy

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Jan 3, 2014
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RickSpringfield said:
Canon Rumors said:
<p><strong>Fujifilm GFX 50S</strong></p>
<p>I’m so happy that the rumors of Fujifilm medium format system has turned out to be true. What excites me more is that it’s likely to come in at under $10,000 USD including a prime lens.</p>

FujiFilm won Photokina. XT2 seems to be a really great rig for a crop ... and ... if you fancy mega megapixels and uber clean images, they are teasing this GFX. I think that is a GREAT strategy and I also like that they are pushing fun and usability on one side of the business and IQ on the other.

Seems to reflect where things are going :) Personally I think (because I have no idea where to get numbers like this from) that the enthusiasts far outnumber the 'people making money off their pictures' and that is where FujiFilm will do quite well :)

I have a Fuji X100T and it is a really great camera. People love the X-T2. This medium format GFX deserves attention.
 

Maximilian59

I'm New Here
Jan 26, 2015
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0
I was at photokina now for five days and can say: Canon has the largest area in the mid of there exhibition where nothing is shown. Really nothing but a repeating video on the wall. I estimate it is about 250 squaremeters with a black floor. Of course they have all their gear there and new bodies. But if you go to an exhibition and all you can get from a leading company is nothing to take with home, that is a pitty. Not much really new. A lot of people go there to collect bags and papers. I do expect to get printed information on an exhibition.
Canon also makes printers. But no real specialists there. Maybe one. Hey we are not only taking pictures for our harddrives! Canon makes beamers: There were no beamers from Canon. Seems they don't want us to look at our pictures.
I am a canon shooter for 40 years and no canon basher.
 

scyrene

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Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
douglaurent said:
At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.

Most people don't have 4K tvs1 or monitors and there's very little 4K content out there2; but OMG not providing *affordable* 8K before 2020 (which is only just over 3 years away) means they're slow!
I would side with Doug here..... sort of...... I think they have the ability to do it now, except for two big problems, heat and battery life. As anyone who wore the battery belt with an ENG camera knows, battery problems can be solved with an external battery.... but heat, there's another problem! How do you dissipate the heat, yet still maintain some degree of sealing? The overheating issue is what held up Canon 4K in DSLRs and will probably do the same for 8K.

4K has now become an expected feature in new cameras. Yes, it is true that most people do not have 4K displays yet (myself included), but we are not looking at a sudden shift from 2K to 4K. Gradually devices will wear out or be upgraded to new devices, and the new ones will most likely have 4K capability. Right now 2K is standard and 4K is leading edge, but eventually 4K will have become standard and 8K will be leading edge.

4K has been out for about 5 years now in consumer devices. My bet is that within 2 years we will be seeing 8K in
consumer devices... it's already planned for phones! Will it be in the 1DX3 and 5D5? who knows..... but it will come!

Well... does not having the battery life or heat dissipation sorted yet not mean they *can't* do it? (Within the constraints of a reasonable budget/form factor of DSLRs).

And aren't you kind of agreeing with me - I never said 8K wasn't going to happen (I don't think it's a big deal, and we are surely approaching the limits of visual acuity at normal distances) but queried the idea that 2020 is too late to get into it. Nikon also only put 4K into their flagship DSLRs this year. Three years for another resolution generation?
 

scyrene

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douglaurent said:
scyrene said:
douglaurent said:
At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.

Most people don't have 4K tvs1 or monitors and there's very little 4K content out there2; but OMG not providing *affordable* 8K before 2020 (which is only just over 3 years away) means they're slow! Um...

:eek:

1 https://www.statista.com/statistics/422402/4k-ultra-hd-tv-shipments-worldwide/ - growth in 4K sales has been substantial, but the projected share is still under 50% for 2016; given most people aren't buying a new tv every year, even at that rate, how long before most people own one?
2 http://www.techradar.com/news/television/ultra-hd-everything-you-need-to-know-about-4k-tv-1048954 "There's actually not much 4K broadcast content to be had right now".

When you think Full HD is enough, why do you shoot with cameras that have more than 2 megapixels? 8K video is just in between the 5D4 and 5DsR photos, so nothing special for all who need to crop, oversample etc etc. Photographers do always forget that filmmakers like to have the same options.

Canon is good if they release 8K in 2020, when nobody else does it by then. But unfortunately in 2020, probably 5 other companies do already have 8K cameras before Canon - who did display in 2016 they could do it. That's the lame thing about it.

I don't doubt that cropping and oversampling are useful, relevant, and important to at least some. But you stated that "affordable" 8K by 2020 would be late (too late?). I dispute that. As I say above, Nikon and Canon have only just made 4K mainstream in their top end DSLR bodies (and we're discussing DSLRs here right? The cinema line moves to a different beat). I think you're being premature. So criticising Canon (or Nikon for that matter) for not meeting your arbitrary and unrealistic deadline is a bit silly.
 

Don Haines

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Jun 4, 2012
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scyrene said:
Well... does not having the battery life or heat dissipation sorted yet not mean they *can't* do it? (Within the constraints of a reasonable budget/form factor of DSLRs).

And aren't you kind of agreeing with me - I never said 8K wasn't going to happen (I don't think it's a big deal, and we are surely approaching the limits of visual acuity at normal distances) but queried the idea that 2020 is too late to get into it. Nikon also only put 4K into their flagship DSLRs this year. Three years for another resolution generation?

I am definitely agreeing.

The battery/heat issue is, in my opinion, the big hurdle to cross for 8K video. The sensors exist now to capture it, the hardware exists now to process it real-time, and with cFast (440MB/sec) and even SD-UHS2 cards at 250MB/sec write speeds the ability to store it real time exists now. Give them a bit of time to shrink the fabrication of the video processor and they will get a boost in processing power and a reduction in power consumption, and then we should see it in Canon video cameras and then into DSLRs....
 
Oct 7, 2013
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0
neuroanatomist said:
douglaurent said:
I am the best evidence why Canon needs to improve and keep up on many levels, as instead of 2x 1DXII and 3x 5D4 I have just bought ONE of each.

No, you're merely an anecdote.

...of thousands you don't see because you don't care.