The Best of Photokina 2016, and a Few Things That Make You Go Hmmmm

[Bob Howland]

I share the sentiment that the EF-M lens lineup is a little short. I really don't think it would be difficult to make the modest changes necessary to 3 or 4 full frame lenses to adapt them to the EOS-M lineup. 35/2 IS, 50/1.4 or 1.8STM, 85/1.8 - these would all be welcome partners to the EF-M 22 mm lens. Something a little wider than 22 mm would also be welcome, as 22 works out to a field of view of a 35 mm on a full frame body. Something in the 15 mm range would be welcome.

A moderately fast zoom would be welcome also - say, a 15-45 f/4 IS.

+1 on the zoom but not for the native primes. For one thing, I think you're underestimating the difficulty in converting the 35, 50's and 85mm lenses to mirrorless. Besides the EF-to-M mount adapter can always be used with those lenses and my guess is that most of the buyers of the M5 will be people who already own EF and EF-S lenses. Although I own more primes than zooms, the primes are definitely special purpose: TS-E, macro and high speed lenses left over from when I was photographing rock bands. I use zooms for more than 95% of my shots. What I really want is a 0.64X Metabones Speed Booster. If I'm going to put a 24-70 f/2.8 boat anchor of a lens on an M5, I want it to be a 24-70 f/1.8.

 

[douglaurent]

Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.

The Canon stand was an impressive waste of space, with maybe just 1/20 of the hall that was reserved for actual camera and lens products you can test and buy. The rest was photo books, free space, movie walls, lens lineups behind glass etc. As I already own the 5D4 there was nothing new to see at all. Pretty disappointing for this huge and expensive stand, which was half of a huge hall.

The most exciting Canon products have been those you can not buy yet. They did show the 120 megapixel prototype camera in a 5D style body, which did show amazing details in their well lighted test arrangement. After asking, one can assume at some point in the future they will release 120 and also 250MP models. Just would be interesting to see if they are usable above ISO400.

In a future zone Canon also did show a 55" 8K prototype monitor, along with the new 8K video camera and 8K zoom lens. Playing with that was fun and the results do look great, although the step by far isn't as big as the step between 1080p and 4K has been before.

At the current speed of innovation through Canon it's unlike they will sell the first affordable 8K camera before the year 2020. But you can always feel: if Canon wants to achieve something, they can do it and have the technology. It's just sad they are so slow in releasing these features, and even slower in offering great features in an affordable way.

 

[unfocused]

Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.

It's the giant trade shows like Photokina that are dinosaurs. Nikon and Canon need to have a presence, but they put their big marketing dollars into more effective efforts with a better return on investment. Niche players go all out because it's a cheap way for them to make a splash, but the two major players don't really need these shows.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.

What do you think happens to the vast majority of printed brochures from trade shows? Recycled hopefully, but more likely in a landfill. Now that's annoying.

The term 'dinosaurs' is better applied to those who prefer to get their information in a printed form, rather than digitally. Doug, if you want to learn more about the city of Cologne, I recommend the Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 'C'. Oh, wait...they killed the printed version years ago.

 

[Tom W]

i do not understand the continuos wish for "some faster EF-M primes".
My impression is it comes mainly from people who have not really thought about size and cost of such lenses. Just look at Fuji and their XF lenses. Those f/1.4 and f/1.2 clunkers are nearly as big as FF lenses and rather expensive to really expensive. I don't think many people in their right mind would be willing to shell out a grand or more a piece for big fat EF-M *CROP ONLY* f/1.4 fast primes.

I will point out that there are some relatively small fast primes in the Canon lineup - the 35/2 IS, the 50/1.8 STM, the 50/1.4, the 85/1.8 and the old 20/2.8. And the 22/2 EF-M is pretty small. I would say that there could definitely be some moderately fast primes designed for the mirrorless body that would be fairly small in stature. At least at the short-medium focal length range.

Granted, there won't be any 135 f/2 EF-M because there would be no size benefit gained for such a lens. Ditto the 85/1.2. But really, if you're going to go that big, get the adapter and use your EF lenses on your M5.

 

[brad-man]

i do not understand the continuos wish for "some faster EF-M primes".
My impression is it comes mainly from people who have not really thought about size and cost of such lenses. Just look at Fuji and their XF lenses. Those f/1.4 and f/1.2 clunkers are nearly as big as FF lenses and rather expensive to really expensive. I don't think many people in their right mind would be willing to shell out a grand or more a piece for big fat EF-M *CROP ONLY* f/1.4 fast primes.

I will point out that there are some relatively small fast primes in the Canon lineup - the 35/2 IS, the 50/1.8 STM, the 50/1.4, the 85/1.8 and the old 20/2.8. And the 22/2 EF-M is pretty small. I would say that there could definitely be some moderately fast primes designed for the mirrorless body that would be fairly small in stature. At least at the short-medium focal length range.

Granted, there won't be any 135 f/2 EF-M because there would be no size benefit gained for such a lens. Ditto the 85/1.2. But really, if you're going to go that big, get the adapter and use your EF lenses on your M5.

Absolutely. Canon certainly has the expertise to produce small and sharp M primes between f/1.8 and 2.4. A set of 14mm, 50mm and 85mm lenses would be terribly useful and easily pocketable. Add IS if it doesn't increase the size too much. I'm not so convinced they could make a compact f/4 standard zoom, but there are always compromises. They finally built the right mirrorless, now they need to build some lenses that will take advantage of it. Unfortunately, their bean counting wizards are probably advising against it, so we'll have to wait and see.

 

[dak723]

It seems to be there are two major markets for the m5 - people who want a mirrorless rebel - and more advanced users that will use the m5 as a second (or third) camera. The first group - probably by far the larger group, will never buy a prime lens. They want one, maybe two at the most, lenses that will be on the camera for all types of photos and situations. So a general standard zoom and maybe a telephoto zoom. That is all they will need - and quite frankly, all I have needed for the past 25 years. The second group, Canon will assume (probably rightly so) that they already have primes if that is what they want. All they need is the adapter. If I did have primes, that's what I would use. Why in the world would I spend my hard earned money buying M primes when I already have EF primes? Because a few well-to-do enthusiasts would buy both is hardly a reason for Canon to spend the time and money on what I believe would be a very niche product. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Woody]

What happened to this CR2 rumor:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28160.msg555455#msg555455

"We’re told Canon will introduce two new EF-M prime lenses in Q1 of 2016. Both of these lenses will be slightly upmarket in build and design when compared to the current crop of EF-M lenses."

Sigh...

 

[Luds34]

i do not understand the continuos wish for "some faster EF-M primes".
My impression is it comes mainly from people who have not really thought about size and cost of such lenses. Just look at Fuji and their XF lenses. Those f/1.4 and f/1.2 clunkers are nearly as big as FF lenses and rather expensive to really expensive. I don't think many people in their right mind would be willing to shell out a grand or more a piece for big fat EF-M *CROP ONLY* f/1.4 fast primes.

First off, I think most people consider f/2 to be fast primes. Have you looked at "those" f/2 primes from Fuji XF? They are tiny! 43mm filter size for the 35mm? That is a small lens. FYI, it only weighs 170g.

2nd, the f/1.4 lenses are not that big, certainly no where near top full frame glass (L or Art).

Fuji XF 23mm f/1.4 - 301g, Length 2.5"
Fuji XF 35mm f/1.4 - 187g, Length 2.2"

PS: Pending reviews and results of a personal hands-on, I am very inclined to buy an EOS M5 with 18-150.

This seems like a contradiction. So you won't mount these "clunkers" prime lenses you discuss above, but you'd use a large super zoom that's even bigger? :

 

[Luds34]

I will point out that there are some relatively small fast primes in the Canon lineup - the 35/2 IS, the 50/1.8 STM, the 50/1.4, the 85/1.8 and the old 20/2.8.

And think how much smaller those lenses could be if designed to only cover a crop size image circle. Or designed to use the shorter flange distance of the M mount. A hypothetical EF-M 35mm f/2 or 50mm f/1.8 could be so much smaller/lighter then the EF versions.

 

[rocketsurgeon]

I came here hoping that somebody would defend canon against accusations of not bothering to print brochures by stating that the age of print is over and that canikon don't need to print marketing materials and I was not disappointed!

 

[leGreve]

How come you made no mention of the Panasonic GH5 which is almost everything the Canon 5DIV isn't...

Imo, Canon has finally dropped the ball on the 5D series and I am currently selling all my Canon lenses and 5D3.
Everyone else is catching up to them and doing what they should have been.

This is what happens when you try to market yourself with 1000 different cameras around the same pricetags and with minimal differences. Stupid and f'ing bad marketing.

 

[AvTvM]

...
First off, I think most people consider f/2 to be fast primes. Have you looked at "those" f/2 primes from Fuji XF? They are tiny! 43mm filter size for the 35mm? That is a small lens. FYI, it only weighs 170g.

2nd, the f/1.4 lenses are not that big, certainly no where near top full frame glass (L or Art).

Fuji XF 23mm f/1.4 - 301g, Length 2.5"
Fuji XF 35mm f/1.4 - 187g, Length 2.2"

for anything wider than 22mm i just use the fabulous EF-M 11-22 which is a small, collapsible design D 61x L 58mm and 220 grams = smaller and lighter than most Fuji primes and universally covers entire UWA focal range in one small, affordable and optically great lens.

For UWA lenses I don't think many users really need fast glass. Exceptions being nightscape with stars and astro stuff - which i consider a very tiny niche of the market.

The only Fuji prime that would fit in nicely into Canon EF-M lineup is the Fuji XF 35mm/2.0 (not the 1.4) because it is really small, optically on par with 22/2.0 (but not better!) and affordable.

PS: Pending reviews and results of a personal hands-on, I am very inclined to buy an EOS M5 with 18-150.

This seems like a contradiction. So you won't mount these "clunkers" prime lenses you discuss above, but you'd use a large super zoom that's even bigger? :

I am interested in EF-M 18-150 to replace my EF-M 55-200 that I rarely carry along in addition to 18-55 or 11-22. Especially on my hiking/mountaineering/skiing/back country adventures I would prefer a 1-lens set up 18-150 or maybe 2-lens in combination with 22/2 or 11-22, if I also want to have wide-angle or faster glass along.

Both lenses, EF-M 18-150 and 55-200 are physically same size and are by no means big fat "clunkers", but very compact for an APS-C zoom! D 61 x L 86.5, 300g. Of course the compromise on both is very slow f/6.3 on the long end, but i am willing to live with that, if IQ is generally good.

For city trips I'll take 11-22 plus 18-150 plus 22/2 as a very compact, light and yet capable lens setup.

For small stage concerts I'd love to get a moderately fast tele prime like an EF-M 85/2.4. A f/6.3 zoom will require ISO 25600 and has no potential for subject isolation. An EF-M 85/1.4 or an EF 70-200/2.8 II via adapter would offer more shallow DOF, but they cost an arm and a leg and i am not willing to lug such large gear around and it also would often look too conspicuos. I would be declined access with large cameras/large lenses in many venues.

 

[Woody]

...the Panasonic GH5 which is almost everything the Canon 5DIV isn't...

a) For videographers.

b) GH5... preproduction..

 

[douglaurent]

Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.

It's the giant trade shows like Photokina that are dinosaurs. Nikon and Canon need to have a presence, but they put their big marketing dollars into more effective efforts with a better return on investment. Niche players go all out because it's a cheap way for them to make a splash, but the two major players don't really need these shows.

Really? To me it seems there are more people than ever at Photokina, and Canon and Nikon have more competition than ever.

 

[douglaurent]

Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.

What do you think happens to the vast majority of printed brochures from trade shows? Recycled hopefully, but more likely in a landfill. Now that's annoying.

The term 'dinosaurs' is better applied to those who prefer to get their information in a printed form, rather than digitally. Doug, if you want to learn more about the city of Cologne, I recommend the Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 'C'. Oh, wait...they killed the printed version years ago.

Ok good, so let's forbid doing any printing on this planet - because as we all know, nobody ever does read or store anything that's printed. Anyone who did ask for a brochure at Photokina stands probably threw it away after a few seconds, without being interested in the products the companies want to sell.

And even better, let's forbid making photos or videos of anything that exists already as well. Who needs it? The world will be a happier place with more limitations and less inidivualism.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.

What do you think happens to the vast majority of printed brochures from trade shows? Recycled hopefully, but more likely in a landfill. Now that's annoying.

The term 'dinosaurs' is better applied to those who prefer to get their information in a printed form, rather than digitally. Doug, if you want to learn more about the city of Cologne, I recommend the Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 'C'. Oh, wait...they killed the printed version years ago.

Ok good, so let's forbid doing any printing on this planet - because as we all know, nobody ever does read or store anything that's printed. Anyone who did ask for a brochure at Photokina stands probably threw it away after a few seconds, without being interested in the products the companies want to sell.

And even better, let's forbid making photos or videos of anything that exists already as well. Who needs it? The world will be a happier place with more limitations and less inidivualism.

 

[douglaurent]

Alongside with Nikon, Canon probably has been the only company at Photokina that did not give out any printed brochure. Annoying. Another sign these dinosaurs don't really care about consumers and just do what they think is best for them.

What do you think happens to the vast majority of printed brochures from trade shows? Recycled hopefully, but more likely in a landfill. Now that's annoying.

The term 'dinosaurs' is better applied to those who prefer to get their information in a printed form, rather than digitally. Doug, if you want to learn more about the city of Cologne, I recommend the Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 'C'. Oh, wait...they killed the printed version years ago.

Ok good, so let's forbid doing any printing on this planet - because as we all know, nobody ever does read or store anything that's printed. Anyone who did ask for a brochure at Photokina stands probably threw it away after a few seconds, without being interested in the products the companies want to sell.

And even better, let's forbid making photos or videos of anything that exists already as well. Who needs it? The world will be a happier place with more limitations and less inidivualism.

It's always good to have some graphic at hand when you're running out of facts.

It is stupid not to print any brochures, when there's a clear demand for it. This is why 95% of all other photokina companies still print. It is also stupid to say "I don't need it and others don't need it as well, so you and others don't deserve it".

Fun fact, one fourth of the Canon stand was all about prints and printing.

The main point wasn't about printed brochures anyway - the issue just shows the attitude of Canon and Nikon towards customers.

 

[neuroanatomist]

It's always good to have some graphic at hand when you're running out of facts.

It is stupid not to print any brochures, when there's a clear demand for it. This is why 95% of all other photokina companies still print. It is also stupid to say "I don't need it and others don't need it as well, so you and others don't deserve it".

As opposed to complaining about it here, which is...smart?

By the way, the only fact that you presented was that Canon and Nikon are not handing out printed brochures at Photokina. Everything beyond that is your own interpretation of that one fact. Now, if you went up to the Canon booth and asked for a brochure, and they told you, "Bugger off you idiot, stop consuming oxygen that people we value actually need," then that would be another fact, and one that might actually support your interpretation.

 

[AvTvM]

... Now, if you went up to the Canon booth and asked for a brochure, and they told you, "Bugger off you idiot, stop consuming oxygen that people we value actually need," then that would be ...

... Mr. Neuro helping out on the Canon stand. ;D ;D ;D