The Canon EOS 6D Mark II Mentioned [CR1]

[LonelyBoy]

With Canon I never get my hopes up. You got the part spot on "Canon wants you to buy..." where by Canon wants and not the customer wants.

But I digress. Take a look at the Nikon d750. This is a company that listens to the customer and make cameras with features that the customer wants at a competitive price point. Maybe this is an opportunity for canon to split the 6d into two models as well, one with more features than the other. They're so good at restricting features to protect other model lines anyways. So you could have a 6d2 mounted on a stand, realize that you're going to need more focus points in order to really get the shot perfect, and you reach into your bag where you're carrying 5 other bodies and pull out a 6dX for the slightly better feature set. See where I'm going with this.

Meh. This is how market leaders behave. It's the same with Intel. They deliberately remove certain features from their cheaper CPUs to force certain users (people who do heavy VM work, for example) up to the next level. By the time you add up the features that everyone wants added to the 6D... it's the 5D3, only cheaper. Why would Canon do that? No really, why would they? Nikon is more aggressive because they're more desperate. Just like AMD.

 

[Sporgon]

As much as people want an AF upgrade and (apparently) dual card slots, the 6D2's most glaring need is a pop up flash. Because nothing says "entry level" like some accessories required.

Selling a 6D without a flash is like selling a lowest trimline version of a car without any brakes.

- A

Glaring need? Canon makes other cameras with pop up flash. Not every camera needs pop up flash.

I think it's a glaring need as this is not a pro rig for photographers who already own speedlites or demand weathersealing up top. This is a budget FF rig and dollars drive the sale. So someone stepping up from (say) a Rebel or 70D is not just paying X for the camera, they are paying X + Y for the camera plus flash. In many cases, those upgraders are already taking it in the face by needing to pitch their EF-S glass and buy a standard EF zoom as well.

Again, look at Nikon. I don't love their products, but I do (in some cases) believe they have a stronger value proposition -- they've decided pop-up flashes are better than nothing and have thrown them into the design. Canon -- in this budget FF market segment -- tell its comparable customers to pony up for a dedicated flash unit instead.

Don't get me wrong, Nikon is not perfect with optional wi-fi doodads and such, but in some cases, I've feel they've made the right call for the market.

- A

I think Canon's attitude here is if you are bothering to stump up the extra cash for FF what on earth do you want to bother with pop up flash for. And I agree with them.

 

[ahsanford]

Canon 5DS is selling for $3699.
I think (my guessimate) the new 5DIV will be around $2999 and 6D MKii will be around $2,199.
And they might just add (the low pass filter cancellation) 5D IV R and charge $3199...

http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/04039/Canon-EOS-6D-price.html

See the price track at the very bottom. You will not find another FF rig whose price has dropped so precipitously. The 6D was overpriced for what it was offering. The same thing happened with the 24/28/35 IS refresh lenses -- they were fine tools but were considerably overpriced, and they quickly settled in on the price they probably should have been out of the gate.

The D610 -- by no means a clone of the 6D but certainly another reasonable option for folks making the big FF move -- has settled into $1300-1500 asking price. I think that's where Canon needs to be with the 6D, not just to match Nikon so also to rightsize the price to draw people into FF. Once Canon has them in the EF-only ecosystem, those users will all but certainly pick up a nice EF lens or speedlite at some point and they'll make their money back.

The only way Canon goes north of $2k with the 6D2 is if the camera goes up-market and is considerably upgraded, like +4 MP, +2 fps, +1 stop of low light, a comprehensive AF upgrade occurs, etc. I'm not convinced Canon will do that. In this segment, it's more of a 'plunge' sort of big purchase than it is a typical body upgrade. Lenses often need to be sold/bought at this stage, so this is a place where folks can reasonably leave the Canon fold to join Nikon or vice versa.

So Canon can't be sitting at an arbitrarily higher price point or expect users to have to buy a EF pricey lens or speedlite pickup, or the sum total of moving to FF inside of Canon's ecosystem will quickly add up to a value far higher than Nikon's. I haven't run the math on FF upgrade costs (all things considered), but it would be interesting to see.

- A

 

[Frage]

Does touch-screen counts as a radical change?

 

[StudentOfLight]

As much as people want an AF upgrade and (apparently) dual card slots, the 6D2's most glaring need is a pop up flash. Because nothing says "entry level" like some accessories required.

Selling a 6D without a flash is like selling a lowest trimline version of a car without any brakes.

- A

Glaring need? Canon makes other cameras with pop up flash. Not every camera needs pop up flash.

I think it's a glaring need as this is not a pro rig for photographers who already own speedlites or demand weathersealing up top. This is a budget FF rig and dollars drive the sale. So someone stepping up from (say) a Rebel or 70D is not just paying X for the camera, they are paying X + Y for the camera plus flash. In many cases, those upgraders are already taking it in the face by needing to pitch their EF-S glass and buy a standard EF zoom as well.

Again, look at Nikon. I don't love their products, but I do (in some cases) believe they have a stronger value proposition -- they've decided pop-up flashes are better than nothing and have thrown them into the design. Canon -- in this budget FF market segment -- tell its comparable customers to pony up for a dedicated flash unit instead.

Don't get me wrong, Nikon is not perfect with optional wi-fi doodads and such, but in some cases, I've feel they've made the right call for the market.

- A

I think Canon's attitude here is if you are bothering to stump up the extra cash for FF what on earth do you want to bother with pop up flash for. And I agree with them.

+1, I was about to say this. The reason people would opt for the 6D is the improved IQ over APS-C options. The results one gets with Bounce-Flash or a Wireless radio-triggered system would likely appeal more to those people than what you can get with a pop-up flash.

 

[ahsanford]

I think Canon's attitude here is if you are bothering to stump up the extra cash for FF what on earth do you want to bother with pop up flash for. And I agree with them.

+1, I was about to say this. The reason people would opt for the 6D is the improved IQ over APS-C options. The results one gets with Bounce-Flash or a Wireless radio-triggered system would likely appeal more to those people than what you can get with a pop-up flash.

I'm not advocating a pop-up flash is a good option, but not all 'good-IQ-chasing photogs' have your (perfectly reasonable) flash expectations. For instance, I overwhelmingly shoot with available light, and I was 3-4 lenses into my set of gear before I ever bought a speedlite.

FF DSLR shooters are no longer a certainty to be professionals that have a cabinet full of tools. The 6D or D610 is conceivably a person or family's first or (more likely) second camera purchase. Those folks may not necessarily have a speedlite, so to them, a pop-up flash might be a necessary evil, especially when their entire photography budget for the year will be consumed in moving to the 6D/D610 and (likely) buying an appropriate standard zoom for that new mount.

If, however, the majority of 6D/D610 buyers are veteran enthusiasts on their 5th or 6th body after a decade or two of photography work, not offering a pop-up flash is far less of an issue as they probably own a speedlite already.

It all depends on who is thinking about buying such camera, I guess.

- A

 

[Frodo]

A lot of discussion in this thread about the need for two card slots because of the risk of card failure. I've been shooting on CF cards since the 300D and on SD cards since the A75 and have (touch wood) never had a failure. At the moment all of my CF cards are Transcend, so not problems there.
On the other hand I have often had failures with USB memory sticks (thumb drives).

In my view, the biggest risk of losing all shots in a shooting is from losing a card taken out of the camera, so would be more inclined to use one big card.
Some have talked about losing individual shots through corruption. That doesn't worry me as I more often "lose" shots because the focus is not critically sharp, which is one of the reasons I'm considering a 6D or 5DIII right now.

Can someone set up a poll on card failure, including the brands used that were okay and failed, and when and why they failed (e.g. physical damage).

Thanks

 

[ahsanford]

In my view, the biggest risk of losing all shots in a shooting is from losing a card taken out of the camera, so would be more inclined to use one big card.

I thought the same and have been happy with my 128 GB SD card on my 5D3 (I use SD on my 5D3 for Apple on-board reader convenience and I don't do buffer intensive work that would benefit from CF use).

However, the read time on 'accessing what is new' on one big card is a heavy lift for my comp each time I plug the card in.

- A

 

[zlatko]

As much as people want an AF upgrade and (apparently) dual card slots, the 6D2's most glaring need is a pop up flash. Because nothing says "entry level" like some accessories required.

Selling a 6D without a flash is like selling a lowest trimline version of a car without any brakes.

- A

Glaring need? Canon makes other cameras with pop up flash. Not every camera needs pop up flash.

I think it's a glaring need as this is not a pro rig for photographers who already own speedlites or demand weathersealing up top. This is a budget FF rig and dollars drive the sale. So someone stepping up from (say) a Rebel or 70D is not just paying X for the camera, they are paying X + Y for the camera plus flash. In many cases, those upgraders are already taking it in the face by needing to pitch their EF-S glass and buy a standard EF zoom as well.

Again, look at Nikon. I don't love their products, but I do (in some cases) believe they have a stronger value proposition -- they've decided pop-up flashes are better than nothing and have thrown them into the design. Canon -- in this budget FF market segment -- tell its comparable customers to pony up for a dedicated flash unit instead.

Don't get me wrong, Nikon is not perfect with optional wi-fi doodads and such, but in some cases, I've feel they've made the right call for the market.

- A

For me the 6D is pro rig and I already own speed lights. So I don't fit your description of the 6D buyer. There is no one type of 6D buyer. Presumably Canon knows a thing or two about their intended buyer.

 

[Masa@CanonRMRs]

Sorry for interrupting the debate, guys. (-_-)/

Quick question from Japan:
Is "Articulating LCD" right way to call the system in U.S. (or any English-speaking countries) ?

In Japan, we call the 70D/Rebel type of screen "Vari-Angle LCD" and EOS M3 type "Tilt LCD".
Is there different name for each kind of flip-or-hinged-or-whatever-you-called LCDs?
Or you just call all of 'em "Articulating LCD" ?

Me and my friends are wondering when we read this 6DII article on CanonRumors.
I will appreciate if you guys give us some answers.

I don't think there is a specific distinction being used in the forum here. Articulated means that it has a pivot point (or pivot points).

The Caterpillar 740B is a completely different example of articulation in a mechanical design. The 740B is an articulated dump truck, this means there is a pivot point in the middle of the truck.

Thanks, StudentOfLight.
m(_ _)m <- In Japan, we use this symbol for gesture of bow, for gratitude or apology.

Maybe we think too much of what-should-we-call-this-and-that stuff.
But what can I say, we're Japanese, lol.

Thanks again for taking time to reply and paste a very interesting example image.
I wanna take some photos of this cool dump truck, for real.

 

[JohanCruyff]

Take a look at the Nikon d750. This is a company that listens to the customer and make cameras with features that the customer wants at a competitive price point. Maybe this is an opportunity for canon to split the 6d into two models as well, one with more features than the other.

No doubt the D750 is a very good camera, but I took a look at a couple of Nikon Users' forums when this model was announced, and many forumers considered it a "D620", meaning that they were disappointed by the (in their opinion) minor upgrades with respect to the D610.
They expected a real successor for their beloved D700.

 

[bholliman]

I think Canon's attitude here is if you are bothering to stump up the extra cash for FF what on earth do you want to bother with pop up flash for. And I agree with them.

+1, I was about to say this. The reason people would opt for the 6D is the improved IQ over APS-C options. The results one gets with Bounce-Flash or a Wireless radio-triggered system would likely appeal more to those people than what you can get with a pop-up flash.

I agree with Sporgon and Student of Light. A 6D2 or 3 is very likely purchased as a 2nd or 3rd + body by a hobbyist/enthusiast. Very unlikely these photographers will want anything to do with pop-up flash. I know I didn't when I purchased my 6D two and a half years ago.

 

[ahsanford]

Take a look at the Nikon d750. This is a company that listens to the customer and make cameras with features that the customer wants at a competitive price point. Maybe this is an opportunity for canon to split the 6d into two models as well, one with more features than the other.

No doubt the D750 is a very good camera, but I took a look at a couple of Nikon Users' forums when this model was announced, and many forumers considered it a "D620", meaning that they were disappointed by the (in their opinion) minor upgrades with respect to the D610.
They expected a real successor for their beloved D700.

Yep. They wanted a best-on-planet sensor at lower than 36 MP but with all the bells and whistles features-wise of the D810. That never was going to happen with the good/better/best market Nikon envisions.

But I would argue that Nikon putting their best AF system into a camera with the D610 sensor is a really shrewd move that invents a 'middle' FF market position. That single feature is worth paying more for -- when I was deciding between a 5D3 and 5D2 (before the 6D came out), the 5D3 having the 1DX's AF system 100% justified buying a 5D3 over a cut-price 5D2.

- A

 

[tomri]

I guess Canon will do what they always do; give people some features which they have been holding back, such as articulated screen. At the same time, they will make the handling feel cheaper and more flimsy. With the long awaited features they will pull in new customers. With the cheaper feel they make sure those customers will want to upgrade later.

Look at the 6d today, how bad these flush and flimsy buttons are at the back. Have you compared the feel of the thumb wheel with that of a, say 40d? Do it! It is an eye opener.

 

[Crosswind]

Look at the 6d today, how bad these flush and flimsy buttons are at the back. Have you compared the feel of the thumb wheel with that of a, say 40d? Do it! It is an eye opener.

I have a canon eos 6d and also had a 40d and 600d several years ago. I cannot complain about anything except that I'm missing that articulating screen from my 600d on my 6d sometimes. All of these cameras are well-made. I've never had problems with buttons or the thumb wheel of my 6d.

Take a look
No doubt the D750 is a very good camera, but I took a look at a couple of Nikon Users' forums when this model was announced, and many forumers considered it a "D620", meaning that they were disappointed by the (in their opinion) minor ... 'snip'

Buffer size of the nikon d750 is a bad joke.

 

[zlatko]

I guess Canon will do what they always do; give people some features which they have been holding back, such as articulated screen. At the same time, they will make the handling feel cheaper and more flimsy. With the long awaited features they will pull in new customers. With the cheaper feel they make sure those customers will want to upgrade later.

Look at the 6d today, how bad these flush and flimsy buttons are at the back. Have you compared the feel of the thumb wheel with that of a, say 40d? Do it! It is an eye opener.

That expresses the perfectly cynical view. Essentially you believe that Canon *always* does things wrong. So why do you buy Canon? Or read a Canon rumors forum?

The buttons on the 6D feel great and work great, so I have no idea what you're talking about. And I did own and heavily use the 40D (had two of them, first one was $1,300) and the 30D, 20D, 10D, 60D, 5D, 5D2, 5D3 (still use it), 1D, 1DS, 1D2, 1D2N and 1D3. I really have no complaints about the 6D buttons, especially at it's low current price.