The one thing Apple understands is photography

unfocused said:
Don Haines said:
The thing is, very very very few people have that team behind them...

...The editing is an integral part of real photography and no 5 inch display is going to take the place of a couple of quality monitors and good software...A real pro will use the right tool for the task at hand.

You are actually making my point for me Don. The problem is that you do have to have a full team behind you today...because manufacturers refuse to make it easy, even though the technology is readily available.

As far as editing goes...

http://www.adobe.com/products/lightroom-mobile.html

So, the solution might not be in-camera editing. Maybe its near-field communication to transfer selected files to a tablet where you can access Lightroom or Photoshop to edit images on the go.

Sorry, I just don't get the resistance to technology that people are expressing on this geek forum.
When I am in the field and need to get the image out, my DSLR workflow is shoot images, go somewhere I can sit down, transfer card to laptop, copy files, edit images, send images. Usually though, images that require DSLR quality and lenses are processed and edited after I get back to the office.

Yes, wireless transfer, be it Eye-Fi, cannon wireless, or whatever, will save me from moving the card from the camera to the laptop (or tablet), but it really does not change the workflow appreciably.

When I am in the field and need to get an image out that is suitable for phone photography, I snap the picture, open up email, attach, and send. It is a FAR!!!!! simpler workflow than with the DSLR, but it is only suitable for low quality pictures for quick verification or info.

To me, they are two different functions. For one the DSLR is by far the preferred tool, for the other, the phone is the best tool. Things that make sense for one do not make sense for the other....
 
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unfocused said:
RustyTheGeek said:
For everyone saying that the camera industry is way behind and should offer connectivity from DSLRs to the cloud...

Eye-Fi
http://www.eyefi.com/

Yes. How foolish of me. I shouldn't expect camera manufacturers to actually make connectivity easy. I should just buy an overpriced, clunky third-party product.

Better yet, why do we even need these stupid digital cameras? Instead we should just shoot film and send the film in to have it developed and scanned. And, autofocus. That's for amateurs. You can't be a real photographer if you don't focus your lenses manually.

I see the light now. I shouldn't expect camera manufacturers to actually make their products easier to use.

I'm just an ingrate who doesn't appreciate that Canon and Nikon have better things to do than bring their cameras into the 21st century.

Don Haines said:
The thing is, very very very few people have that team behind them...

...The editing is an integral part of real photography and no 5 inch display is going to take the place of a couple of quality monitors and good software...A real pro will use the right tool for the task at hand.

You are actually making my point for me Don. The problem is that you do have to have a full team behind you today...because manufacturers refuse to make it easy, even though the technology is readily available.

As far as editing goes...

http://www.adobe.com/products/lightroom-mobile.html

So, the solution might not be in-camera editing. Maybe its near-field communication to transfer selected files to a tablet where you can access Lightroom or Photoshop to edit images on the go.

Sorry, I just don't get the resistance to technology that people are expressing on this geek forum.

I share Don's points about DSLR vs Phone images and their respective workflows and value. Each has strengths and weaknesses that don't/can't match the other.

As for wireless connectivity, I think you are simplifying a very complex and ever-evolving challenge for camera manufacturers. Many things have to work right and be supported as they change. What you are asking and apparently think is a no-brainer feature is very difficult for a camera manufacturer to achieve. Camera companies are not phone, computer, network or wireless manufacturers. It's just not in their wheelhouse. And once they start down that path of adding those features, they are required to do it right and support it or it will tarnish their reputation for the entire camera and/or market. As we have seen in most forums, Canon/Nikon etc are lambasted for even the smallest issues after folks pay thousands of dollars for cameras they expect to be perfect for that price. Most people don't understand that once a feature is added to a product, it must be supported for years and that means more training for sales, support staff, technical manuals, etc.

I get why you want this feature and with wireless being added to everything including even water heaters, I see how it looks easy. And on the surface it is, just add a WiFi chipset and you're done. But I think there are many more things to consider when you are trying to add a radio frequency emitter/receiver to a complex electronic device like a DSLR that has a ultra sensitive light frequency collector and also fires a high power light frequency emitter. Look at all the problems Pocket Wizard has faced. I think Canon has probably researched this quite a bit and found it to be a big enough challenge to get right to decide to put it off until it can be done better.

My point about Eye-Fi is that they took a working and mature 3rd party product that didn't have to R&D/Support themselves and they embraced it for the small percentage of photographers that *might* use it. Because wireless connectivity for most of the serious DSLR market is not going to sell more cameras and in fact it might even hinder sales. Canon is slowly adding wireless connectivity to several cameras that are either P&S or consumer oriented where the demand is stronger. But once that wireless feature is integrated, it is there to stay. The Eye-Fi product can be moved from camera to camera and it can be changed as technology changes. Wireless technology changes much faster than DSLR or most camera technology. WiFi is finicky and hard to configure and troubleshoot in some environments and many times it's not the device that's the problem.

Back to camera phones... how often do most people change their phones? Some folks change their phone several times each year! That technology and feature set changes very quickly and the market is driven by change. Contrast that with the DSLR market where any given serious DSLR ramps every 3-4 years. Completely different markets, consumers and needs/expectations.

So please cut Canon and the other major camera companies a break. They didn't invent the current wireless technology. They can't 'make it easy' because that is beyond their control, it's not their technology. I don't think it's a conspiracy that they choose to avoid wireless features in DSLRs, it's just a reasonable business decision on where they focus their energy and efforts in order to produce quality cameras for their perceived market and make a profit in the process.

Oh, and if Canon + Eye-Fi isn't good enough for you...

go buy a Samsung Galaxy Camera
http://www.samsung.com/us/photography/galaxy-camera

Now you have a camera hybrid complete with touch screen and wireless connectivity.
 
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There are alternatives now.
You can tether wirelessly the Sony A6000 (I have tried) with an Android camera aquipped with the Sony sofware. What this means that you can place your camera and actually get the view of the viewfinder on your smartphone.
You can adjust and focus, change ISO and mode.
The pictures you take, stgay on your camera's storage, whether fixed or removable untli the camerq finds a WiFi connection and sends the picture to Fluffy or whoever is in charge of mailing and marketing. Probably there will be fluffies to serve a number of photographers at the same time. That could be a business idea.
 
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martti said:
There are alternatives now.
You can tether wirelessly the Sony A6000 (I have tried) with an Android camera aquipped with the Sony sofware. What this means that you can place your camera and actually get the view of the viewfinder on your smartphone.
You can adjust and focus, change ISO and mode.
The pictures you take, stgay on your camera's storage, whether fixed or removable untli the camerq finds a WiFi connection and sends the picture to Fluffy or whoever is in charge of mailing and marketing. Probably there will be fluffies to serve a number of photographers at the same time. That could be a business idea.

You mean like on the Canon 6D using EOS Remote on your smartphone? :D
 
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RustyTheGeek said:
martti said:
There are alternatives now.
You can tether wirelessly the Sony A6000 (I have tried) with an Android camera aquipped with the Sony sofware. What this means that you can place your camera and actually get the view of the viewfinder on your smartphone.
You can adjust and focus, change ISO and mode.
The pictures you take, stgay on your camera's storage, whether fixed or removable untli the camerq finds a WiFi connection and sends the picture to Fluffy or whoever is in charge of mailing and marketing. Probably there will be fluffies to serve a number of photographers at the same time. That could be a business idea.

You mean like on the Canon 6D using EOS Remote on your smartphone? :D

That I have not tried.
 
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RustyTheGeek said:
As for wireless connectivity, I think you are simplifying a very complex and ever-evolving challenge for camera manufacturers. Many things have to work right and be supported as they change.

You're right, especially when it comes to a professional workflow and quick obsolescence of some components. The wireless technology is just a building block. You can't rely on a specific app running only on a specific mobile OS and maybe only on a specific version, unless it's properly updated - the risk otehrwise is it won't work anymore in a couple of years.

IMHO it's good, for example, that Canon WFT-E7A (its price is truly absurd today, I agree...) can use a standard, non proprietary, protocol like FTP for image transfers. It means you can "plug" it into any workflow using any tool you may need to use - not only EOS Utility - at the price of a slightly more complex setup. The day it uses a proprietary "cloud" service and a proprietary app to access it, as soon as the service or the app are no longer maintained/available, you have an expensive gimmick no longer working. Some cameras are designed to last several years, I'd be careful to tie them too much to "features" changing much more quickly.

If someone believe it can't happen, it already happend for example to some SmartTV models - their apps are no longer updated for some streaming services which thereby cannot be longer used directly - making them simple TVs no longer "smart" at all.
 
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I can attest to the value of your suggested NFC solution. It's precisely the one I've used for a good long while now with a Sony A6000 and 7inch HD tablet. My clients, models, MUAs, and stylists all love being able to see what's going on as it happens. We make scene/costume/lighting/posture adjustments quickly and easily and sometimes/manytimes the out of camera lightly tablet processed results are good enough to post/distribute live during the shoot.

I wonder if resistance to technology is related in any way to a realization that one's images might fail to stand up to scrutiny? Talk is cheap and requires no proof of claim, right?

unfocused said:
... So, the solution might not be in-camera editing. Maybe its near-field communication to transfer selected files to a tablet where you can access Lightroom or Photoshop to edit images on the go.

Sorry, I just don't get the resistance to technology that people are expressing on this geek forum.
 
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ChristopherMarkPerez said:
I wonder if resistance to technology is related in any way to a realization that one's images might fail to stand up to scrutiny? Talk is cheap and requires no proof of claim, right?

Or people have been doin tethered and wireless shooting for years, also showing images on better devices than 6" or 7" screens, and have no need to babble about some new buzzwords just to look cool? NFC top speed is 424kb/s, not much to transfer large RAW files...
 
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Don Haines said:
At the top of the pro level, things like WiFi streaming of pictures is great.... When you are shooting at the Olympics, the pictures can be streamed as you take them back to the control room where the team of photo editors can manipulate them and send them off to the appropriate media....

The thing is, very very very few people have that team behind them. Yes, a wedding shooter can stream the pictures off into the cloud as they shoot, but there they sit until the wedding is over, they drive home, collapse Saturday night into bed, wake up the next morning, go shoot the Sunday wedding, get back home and collapse again, wake up Monday morning, have breakfast, and then go tackle the editing....

Off I go on my canoe trip into Algonquin Park.... I shoot a couple thousand pictures.... IF! (and it is very unlikely) I have connectivity to the internet and if I can stream my pictures out as I shoot them, Who is going to edit them or post them? Fluffy?

Yes, you can take a phone, shoot pictures, and post them onto the internet is a matter of seconds..... but WITHOUT EDITING!!!! The editing is an integral part of real photography and no 5 inch display is going to take the place of a couple of quality monitors and good software. We are talking apples and oranges here..... Phones and DSLRs are both cameras, but they are used for different purposes with different requirements. When you need to dump something out fast without editing, use your phone.... When you need to process it, do it right on a decent computer... A real pro will use the right tool for the task at hand.

Don't disrespect Fluffy. He has sharp teeth and claws. Something you will discover when he finds out your post ;)
 
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unfocused said:
RustyTheGeek said:
For everyone saying that the camera industry is way behind and should offer connectivity from DSLRs to the cloud...

Eye-Fi
http://www.eyefi.com/

Yes. How foolish of me. I shouldn't expect camera manufacturers to actually make connectivity easy. I should just buy an overpriced, clunky third-party product.

Better yet, why do we even need these stupid digital cameras? Instead we should just shoot film and send the film in to have it developed and scanned. And, autofocus. That's for amateurs. You can't be a real photographer if you don't focus your lenses manually.

I see the light now. I shouldn't expect camera manufacturers to actually make their products easier to use.

I'm just an ingrate who doesn't appreciate that Canon and Nikon have better things to do than bring their cameras into the 21st century.

Don Haines said:
The thing is, very very very few people have that team behind them...

...The editing is an integral part of real photography and no 5 inch display is going to take the place of a couple of quality monitors and good software...A real pro will use the right tool for the task at hand.

You are actually making my point for me Don. The problem is that you do have to have a full team behind you today...because manufacturers refuse to make it easy, even though the technology is readily available.

As far as editing goes...

http://www.adobe.com/products/lightroom-mobile.html

So, the solution might not be in-camera editing. Maybe its near-field communication to transfer selected files to a tablet where you can access Lightroom or Photoshop to edit images on the go.

Sorry, I just don't get the resistance to technology that people are expressing on this geek forum.

I think to a certain extent your mistaking existence resistance to WiFi with the priority of wifi. When I think of absolute needs in a camera body wifi isn't one of them. Nice to have, but, I can think of many other things that are a higher priority.
 
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Chuck Alaimo said:
I think to a certain extent your mistaking existence resistance to WiFi with the priority of wifi. When I think of absolute needs in a camera body wifi isn't one of them. Nice to have, but, I can think of many other things that are a higher priority.

I don't think so. Perhaps we all just have to agree to disagree. But, before we do, let’s beat this poor horse one more time.

This is not and never has been about what I or anyone else personally view as a priority. It's about how the camera industry failed to recognize a truly disruptive change in technology and the price they have already paid for that – the near total annihilation of the market for casual consumer cameras – and the fact that despite the high cost of their failure, they continue to cling to old habits, which limits the options available to their customers and handicaps them across all categories, from beginner to professional.

Everywhere you turn today, you read that the future will be an “Internet of Things.” Soon, everything in our lives will be connected. This is already happening and available on several fronts – home thermostats, kitchen appliances, automobiles, our bank and credit cards, etc. etc. Now, it really doesn’t matter if people like it or not, it’s already here and growing daily.

So, if heating and air conditioning people and kitchen appliance makers and banks can figure it out and see the value in connecting to the internet, I ask a very simple question – what’s wrong with camera manufacturers?

Someone wrote that I don’t understand how difficult it would be to make cameras connect to the internet. Really??? Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that the engineering teams of Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Sony are comprised of idiots.

The point of the original article, which was actually just a rewrite of a previous story covering a technology presentation, is that camera manufacturers were woefully slow in adapting to the internet. And, due to their inability to adapt, they left themselves vulnerable to competition that has swallowed up much of their market.

And…even in the face of those market-destroying changes, they continue to lag behind the rest of the world.

To say it is just something nice to have, but isn't a priority, might be a legitimate criticism. Except that it's hard to gauge priorities when something isn't readily available and easy to use. Auto exposure and auto focus were not priorities until they became readily available and easy to use. Digital cameras weren't a priority until they became readily available and affordable. When video was first added to DSLRs it was just a minor add on that no one expected to be important. There was no one demanding that DSLR's offer video. Yet now it is considered an essential feature.

I am confident that eventually the industry will get a clue and when they finally do, the very people who insist they don't need this, will be using it daily, demanding improvements with each new camera release and threatening to switch to another brand because Canon's connectivity is "behind" XYZ's.

Canon is continuously excoriated here for silly things like dynamic range. Yet the entire industry totally misread and apparently continues to misread what is probably the single most obvious and important trend in society today and it mystifies me why anyone feels compelled to defend them in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary.

The industry screwed up. They are paying for it. We are paying for it twice – our cameras lack features and flexibility that every smart phone has and as consumers the collapse of a large portion of the market will inevitably force price increases and cost-cutting for the cameras we want to buy.
 
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Now entering my third week with iPhone and having some extra time (at the ophtalmologistäs waiting room) I installed the Athentec Lucid app and the Camera Plus app on my iPhone. The Athentec is basically the Perfectly Clear engine with a nice logo and some quirks but more importantly, it delivers pictures that look good on a smartphone screen. I am so glad Ken Rockwell told me about this software developer! 8)

The CameraPlus looks like the iPhone camera but there is a little + sign next to the button. You can click it to choose macro, what crop you want to use, stabilizer, timer and burst. That would be totally undoable on a pocket camera or why has it not been seen as yet? I can point the autofocus with the touch screen and the camera adjusts exposure accordingly. Which is pretty neat. After taking a picture I can tweak and crop and share it to my friends on social media.
Click-click-click.

I confess, I like it very much when people send postcards, when they do, if they do.
How Apple revolutionized photography, however, gives us something much more powerful, flexible and reactive to communicate with people far-far-far away. It is something you really appreciate when you are the one there.
It is all very fine to have artists and reporters and professional event photographers. All of them have their own idea about what the 'real photography' should be defined. Apple understood photography for the masses and gave it to them. Maybe Apple did not invent camera phone or the business of social networking. But the way it knitted the two together on a single device that you can use for thousands for other functions as well, was a unique flash of genius.

Like it or not, use it or not but if you look around you, you cannot neglect it.
 
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unfocused said:
So, if heating and air conditioning people and kitchen appliance makers and banks can figure it out and see the value in connecting to the internet, I ask a very simple question – what’s wrong with camera manufacturers?

Did you understand what's the driver behind that? They figured it out only because they want to collect data about everything you do. It's not to make your life better - it's to be able to collect data. Also, it opens a whole can of worm of privacy and security risks which are not addressed because the data gathering lobby doesn't want to talk about them.

unfocused said:
Someone wrote that I don’t understand how difficult it would be to make cameras connect to the internet. Really??? Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that the engineering teams of Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Sony are comprised of idiots.

The Internet is bidirectional. Once your camera is connected to the Internet, the Internet is connected to your camera. Sure, casual shooters are not interesting targets, but maybe their "private" photos. Other professional photographers could become soon very interesting targets if their "always connected" cameras are vulnerable. Stolen or deleted images = big business issue.

Smartphones are a risk. They can be compromised and information exfiltrated. Do you feel fine with any device directly connected to the Internet without proper protection, and storing valuable data? I don't. Connect to the Internet, and you're also traceable. Maybe not an issue for you, for others may be (you have to get rid of mobile phones too, true).

unfocused said:
that camera manufacturers were woefully slow in adapting to the internet.

Or did they make a cost/benefit analysis and found a different answer? I don't believe Internet connected cameras have any chances against smartphones for casual photographers, while dedicated photographers won't use a phone just because of Internet connectivity. The low-end P&S is dead, and no injection of connectivity will resurrect it. It's dead like typewriters, music//video tapes (and even CD/DVD), fax machines and other technologies for which a multi-functional device works better.

unfocused said:
And…even in the face of those market-destroying changes, they continue to lag behind the rest of the world.

Beware of the "rest of the world", especially if that "rest" is Google, Facebook & Friends - which only aims at your data to monetize them as much as they can.
 
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martti said:
Now entering my third week with iPhone and having some extra time (at the ophtalmologistäs waiting room) I installed the Athentec Lucid app and the Camera Plus app on my iPhone. The Athentec is basically the Perfectly Clear engine with a nice logo and some quirks but more importantly, it delivers pictures that look good on a smartphone screen. I am so glad Ken Rockwell told me about this software developer! 8)

The CameraPlus looks like the iPhone camera but there is a little + sign next to the button. You can click it to choose macro, what crop you want to use, stabilizer, timer and burst. That would be totally undoable on a pocket camera or why has it not been seen as yet? I can point the autofocus with the touch screen and the camera adjusts exposure accordingly. Which is pretty neat. After taking a picture I can tweak and crop and share it to my friends on social media.
Click-click-click.

I confess, I like it very much when people send postcards, when they do, if they do.
How Apple revolutionized photography, however, gives us something much more powerful, flexible and reactive to communicate with people far-far-far away. It is something you really appreciate when you are the one there.
It is all very fine to have artists and reporters and professional event photographers. All of them have their own idea about what the 'real photography' should be defined. Apple understood photography for the masses and gave it to them. Maybe Apple did not invent camera phone or the business of social networking. But the way it knitted the two together on a single device that you can use for thousands for other functions as well, was a unique flash of genius.

Like it or not, use it or not but if you look around you, you cannot neglect it.

That's all great martti, thanks for the great info about some good phone camera apps. But I fail to see how Apple should get credit for understanding photography based on those points. It sounds like it's the 3rd party apps that impressed you and those apps are available for android and other phones as well. Having a camera in a phone and a phone being multi-functional is pretty standard and it was standard before Apple even started making phones.
 
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chauncey said:
I have never, and will never own, an Apple product...period!
Over-hyped and over-priced products all!


Shhhhh...don't tell IBM. They're switching more and more of their employee base over to Macs. It seems only 5% of their Mac users need help from IT, whereas 40% of their PC user base needs frequent tech support. Plus, Macs have a longer useful service life. Overall, IBM expects to realize substantial savings from switching to Apple's 'overhyped and overpriced' products because they're easier to use and cheaper in the long run.
 
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RustyTheGeek said:
That's all great martti, thanks for the great info about some good phone camera apps. But I fail to see how Apple should get credit for understanding photography based on those points. It sounds like it's the 3rd party apps that impressed you and those apps are available for android and other phones as well. Having a camera in a phone and a phone being multi-functional is pretty standard and it was standard before Apple even started making phones.

Without Apple there would be no Android. These apps would not exist if not for the market created by Apple's devices. Yeah "pretty standard"...sure. Whatever. Apple might lose their market share but the camera makers already did lose the point and shoot market to the smartphones. Do you actually remember how the Palm devices failed when they tried to accomodate cellular phone in their personal data manager? Do you remember how the Blackberry lost their game...how Ericsson went out of business and got sold to Sony like Nokia got sold to Microsoft?

Samsung stole industrial secrets and bought people from Apple and that's how they got Android going with their brain power and Google's money. But well, what's the point. It is more fruitful to discuss the size of Allah with Sunni extremists than devices with the fanboys and the nonfanboys.
Keep your opinions. Dogs bark, caravan advances.
 
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Shooting eagles a few weeks back, a gal with an iphone using her binoculars as a telephoto lens was also there.
It occurred to me that I could have saved a huge amount of cash by using her technique. I already have Zeiss binoculars with IS.

But really I would rather see Canon incorporate a phone into its camera bodies. Just the ability to play Candy Crush on the camera's LCD would help with the monotony of sitting in a hunting blind.
 
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