What is everyone's experiences on graduated ND filters?

[Aglet]

I love ND grads... IN SOFTWARE.

NDGs were great in film days, and I was considering getting a set as they are still useful for digital when you have the time to set them up.

But I like to shoot my landscapes faster... So I picked cameras that could give me maximum useful dynamic range, expose so the highlites aren't clipped. or clipped where I want them to be, then in post I can apply any kind of NDG filter I can imagine. FAR more versatile, MUCH more control.
I don't know why anyone would want to bother with using physical filters any more, other than an interesting challenge or hobby. Or perhaps you're using a more limited useful dynamic range camera, like, uhm... Canon.

Most landscapes require more DR than any Sony / Nikon / Canon sensor can handle. In such a scenario, the best you can do is either blend exposures as GMC suggested above or use grads. Those additional 2 stops of an exmor sensor isn't the be all and end all.

To say graduated filters don't have their place in photography because you can lift shadows in post is simply absurd.

your argument is mostly void since the 2 to 4 stop advantage provided by ABC cameras is exactly the amount typically used in ND-grads to achieve the desired effect in single-exposures.
I didn't say ABC could capture so vastly much more DR; I AM stating that the advantage they offer negates using ND grads in the field, and provides more editing latitude, period.
When you start shooting with an 80D (or ABC) you'll see what I mean.
Want more?.. Add an NDG to a single exposure shot with an ABC camera and you've got the equivalent of a fairly wide bracketed series on a Canon. I'm pretty sure you do understand this and how it can be an advantage in the field.

 

[d]

This image taken in 2008 used a 9 stop Hoya filter which has a noticeable colour cast...which during a sunrise produces some really nice colours:

Would that be Lake Bled?

Really nice shot!

d.

 

[j-nord]

I love ND grads... IN SOFTWARE.

NDGs were great in film days, and I was considering getting a set as they are still useful for digital when you have the time to set them up.

But I like to shoot my landscapes faster... So I picked cameras that could give me maximum useful dynamic range, expose so the highlites aren't clipped. or clipped where I want them to be, then in post I can apply any kind of NDG filter I can imagine. FAR more versatile, MUCH more control.
I don't know why anyone would want to bother with using physical filters any more, other than an interesting challenge or hobby. Or perhaps you're using a more limited useful dynamic range camera, like, uhm... Canon.

In general yes but, what about water/cloud/people smoothing? It seems ND still has a place there.

They certainly do, and i still use them for such. But that's to increase exposure time, not to create a gradient exposure effect. I think you may have confused ND with ND-grad.

I overlooked where you specifically referenced grads in which case I agree.

It's definitely feasible to "extend" exposure via multiple exposures+post but not sure it's necessarily better/easier yet.

 

[J.R.]

your argument is mostly void since the 2 to 4 stop advantage provided by ABC cameras is exactly the amount typically used in ND-grads to achieve the desired effect in single-exposures.
I didn't say ABC could capture so vastly much more DR; I AM stating that the advantage they offer negates using ND grads in the field, and provides more editing latitude, period.
When you start shooting with an 80D (or ABC) you'll see what I mean.
Want more?.. Add an NDG to a single exposure shot with an ABC camera and you've got the equivalent of a fairly wide bracketed series on a Canon. I'm pretty sure you do understand this and how it can be an advantage in the field.

Well, you were the one who said this -

I don't know why anyone would want to bother with using physical filters any more, other than an interesting challenge or hobby. Or perhaps you're using a more limited useful dynamic range camera, like, uhm... Canon.

As I correctly pointed out, to make this generalization is quite simply, ludicrous. I shoot many a time in high contrast scenes with stacked GNDs. The single RAW taken with the stacked GNDs in place gives much more latitude in post than simply a higher DR camera ever would. Blending multiple exposures is a possibility but it takes much more time sitting in front of the computer.

That being said, the OP wasn't asking advice on a higher DR camera, the question was about the experience on using GNDs and you were the one who brought DR into the discussion.

GNDs have their place in landscape photography - just because you find them useless doesn't mean they are useless.

BTW, have you shot with the 80D or are just relying on internet chatter? I wouldn't know having pre-ordered the 1DX2 (which should be substantially better than the 80D).I doubt even with the 1DX2, I'll be giving up on my GNDs any time soon.

 

[J.R.]

I love ND grads... IN SOFTWARE.

NDGs were great in film days, and I was considering getting a set as they are still useful for digital when you have the time to set them up.

But I like to shoot my landscapes faster... So I picked cameras that could give me maximum useful dynamic range, expose so the highlites aren't clipped. or clipped where I want them to be, then in post I can apply any kind of NDG filter I can imagine. FAR more versatile, MUCH more control.
I don't know why anyone would want to bother with using physical filters any more, other than an interesting challenge or hobby. Or perhaps you're using a more limited useful dynamic range camera, like, uhm... Canon.

Most landscapes require more DR than any Sony / Nikon / Canon sensor can handle. In such a scenario, the best you can do is either blend exposures as GMC suggested above or use grads. Those additional 2 stops of an exmor sensor isn't the be all and end all.

To say graduated filters don't have their place in photography because you can lift shadows in post is simply absurd.

I would agree with you JR. My earlier shot could have been taken with one shot and then pulled...but it would have been noisy. This particular shot was three exposures blended together which were all shot at 100 iso. This image was taken with a Canon 5Dmk1 and it is noise free and I have an A1+ of this on my wall. It scrutinizes up close, detailed everywhere...no noise while the colours are vivd and the contrast is heavy.
Every camera produces noise if pushed...I'd rather have my balanced image shot bright and at 100 iso. I can dial in moody darks later.
For weddings where I'm going to be around for the sun set, ND grads are nice for faster work. I can balance the light in one exposure but for my landscape work, I get far better results with the exposure blend technique. The only problem is where there's movement in the blend line.

I find it more time consuming blending shots and rely on using GNDs for my landscape work. The color casts are a problem but I find them easier to work around or live with.

Things are changing with the 11-24 though, the extremely wide AOV creates high-contrast situations for which filter solutions don't exist. As a consequence, I am using the Kodak Wratten gel solid ND filters and blend multiple exposures to get the look I need.

 

[Aglet]

It's preposterous to call it ludicrous.
A higher DR camera using software GND effects is a perfectly viable option that's quick, easy, effective and versatile.
It's an option worth considering.
And I don't care to be blending brackets either, too tedious and fraught with issues for non-static scenes.

That being said, the OP wasn't asking advice on a higher DR camera, the question was about the experience on using GNDs and you were the one who brought DR into the discussion.

dat's cuz itz a relevant option

GNDs have their place in landscape photography - just because you find them useless doesn't mean they are useless.

I'm not (completely) disagreeing with you. They're certainly a good solution for many situations. It's just that they are not as fast or flexible as what I've suggested. I might even use one sometimes. But in most situations, I don't need to because I can utilize the software option to adequate effect.

BTW, have you shot with the 80D or are just relying on internet chatter?

I'm relying on posted samples showing that it appears to have a greater usable DR by virtue of its reduced low ISO pattern noise which afflicts most other Canon DSLRs.

I wouldn't know having pre-ordered the 1DX2 (which should be substantially better than the 80D).I doubt even with the 1DX2, I'll be giving up on my GNDs any time soon.

you have more patience than i to utilize them.
and good on you if you like the results.
IF the 1DX2 has more usable DR you'll get an extra boost in post from the NDG use.

So, to clarify something you mentioned above...
How many NDGs do you stack in some shots?

 

[Aglet]

Things are changing with the 11-24 though, the extremely wide AOV creates high-contrast situations for which filter solutions don't exist. As a consequence, I am using the Kodak Wratten gel solid ND filters and blend multiple exposures to get the look I need.

for which no hardware filters exist, but software GND is, again, more versatile if you can't find a filter system to fit a bulging UWA lens. Do your brackets and work the GNDs into post. You have more control, more options.
you don't HAVE to do everything the hard way.

 

[privatebydesign]

Things are changing with the 11-24 though, the extremely wide AOV creates high-contrast situations for which filter solutions don't exist. As a consequence, I am using the Kodak Wratten gel solid ND filters and blend multiple exposures to get the look I need.

for which no hardware filters exist, but software GND is, again, more versatile if you can't find a filter system to fit a bulging UWA lens. Do your brackets and work the GNDs into post. You have more control, more options.
you don't HAVE to do everything the hard way.

Wrong, there are at least two hardware solutions that allow unrestricted use of the lens at full zoom and with multiple filters with zero vignetting, the Fotodiox Wonderpana XL and the NISI 180 systems.

Personally I don't use grads I blend, on the occasions I can't get the DR I need then another couple of stops wouldn't make a difference asI am normally five or six stops out, but more importantly, I never, ever, have a straight line that works for the grad, I shoot interiors and need the exterior view included and windows don't often split the entire frame!

Having said that I do use the Wonderpana on my TS-E 17 and will be getting the XL for my 11-24, but only to use with the CPL, there is no software solution to deal with reflections in water, countertops etc etc.

 

[J.R.]

@pbd - are you using a CPL with the 11-24?

off-topic, I know - please bear with me.

 

[privatebydesign]

@pbd - are you using a CPL with the 11-24?

off-topic, I know - please bear with me.

Not yet, I have been out of the country since the Wonderpana became available and I am not returning for another three weeks, but I'll get one soon after getting back.

I do use the smaller (145mm) Wonderpana CPL on the TS-E 17 shifted, which gives a similar fov to the 11-24. But my use is pretty specific, taking reflections off swimming pools and water features and controlling reflections in counter tops and the like.

 

[Hector1970]

If you are into landscape photography I'd highly recommend graduated ND filters.
I have found the soft graduated to be much more useful than hard grads.
I don't run into too many examples of completely flat horizons with nothing interfering with the clean line where I am located. Hard grads can show up if you don't have that clean horizon.
As for brands. That's a bit tricky.
LEE are very good but very expensive. The scratch quite easily. I've found over (a long) time the filters get very distressed looking and it can impact the shot.
Formatt- HiTech are now very good. Their ND filters are very good the Firecrest ones (also expensive) have very good colour neutrality. Their graduated filters are good too.
I know lots of people with Cokin filters and are very happy with them.
It can be a big financial layout. Best of luck with your choices.

 

[slclick]

If you are into landscape photography I'd highly recommend graduated ND filters.
I have found the soft graduated to be much more useful than hard grads.
I don't run into too many examples of completely flat horizons with nothing interfering with the clean line where I am located. Hard grads can show up if you don't have that clean horizon.
As for brands. That's a bit tricky.
LEE are very good but very expensive. The scratch quite easily. I've found over (a long) time the filters get very distressed looking and it can impact the shot.
Formatt- HiTech are now very good. Their ND filters are very good the Firecrest ones (also expensive) have very good colour neutrality. Their graduated filters are good too.
I know lots of people with Cokin filters and are very happy with them.
It can be a big financial layout. Best of luck with your choices.

Hard grads are great in desert and sea scenes.

 

[Hector1970]

I"m definately lacking desert. In fact its like a hurricane outside at the moment, rain, rain, rain ;D
I must go to a desert some day and get proper use out of my hard grads.

 

[kphoto99]

I"m definately lacking desert. In fact its like a hurricane outside at the moment, rain, rain, rain ;D
I must go to a desert some day and get proper use out of my hard grads.

With enough rain you will be able to use your hard grads in the sea, no need to go to the desert ;-)

 

[trstromme]

Hi having shot a bit with graduated filters I want to offer the following experiences.
First off all, you want the square ones, to properly position the filter vertically. Yes the 'horizon in the middle'-look can be OK, but not always, it's about the added flexibility that square filters offer you.

Second, filter holders, yes, absolutely very practical for repeated exposures.
Absolutely necessary, no. You can easily handhold filters in front of the lens, but you need to make sure they're perpendicular to the center of the sensor/lens or you'll get exaggerated colour casts. Can be a bit challenging with long exposures.

Lee, Cokin, Formatt Hitech.. I don't want to add to the discussion about sharpness or quality too much. What I'll say though is that properly used they offer you the ability to do more in-camera, saving on PP work. Some vendors have styles of filter not available from others, like reverse ND grads, sharper grads etc. Being from Norway where you often end up at the bottom of a valley with mountains sticking up at the sides I'd love to see some that have a slight U-shape to the darkening effect though.
(At least the ability to bend a linear grad (I suppose it wouldn't be linear though) with control points in Lightroom is certainly on top of my list for desired features, but I suppose it is a bit of a detour from the topic here..)

If you're shooting in with multi second exposures you can forego linear grads entirely, and at the same time avoid a lot of the colour cast. (though in some situations the cast is desired because it helps you get vividly saturated red skies for sunsets etc.)
Often when I'm out shooting I bring a piece of dark cloth, or wear a dark jacket. When getting an exposure I can cover parts of the lens before slowly moving my forearm upwards to gradually reveal the scene. This requires a few practice shots, but when successful I'm able to pull off an exposure that nicely captures the scene with a balanced sky and foreground.
These are examples of where I used this technique:

Urban Jungle by Trond Strømme, on Flickr
and

Misty Forest by Trond Strømme, on Flickr

 

[Aglet]

Hi having shot a bit with graduated filters I want to offer the following experiences.
First off all, you want the square ones, to properly position the filter vertically. Yes the 'horizon in the middle'-look can be OK, but not always, it's about the added flexibility that square filters offer you.

Second, filter holders, yes, absolutely very practical for repeated exposures.
Absolutely necessary, no. You can easily handhold filters in front of the lens, but you need to make sure they're perpendicular to the center of the sensor/lens or you'll get exaggerated colour casts. Can be a bit challenging with long exposures.

Lee, Cokin, Formatt Hitech.. I don't want to add to the discussion about sharpness or quality too much. What I'll say though is that properly used they offer you the ability to do more in-camera, saving on PP work. Some vendors have styles of filter not available from others, like reverse ND grads, sharper grads etc. Being from Norway where you often end up at the bottom of a valley with mountains sticking up at the sides I'd love to see some that have a slight U-shape to the darkening effect though.
(At least the ability to bend a linear grad (I suppose it wouldn't be linear though) with control points in Lightroom is certainly on top of my list for desired features, but I suppose it is a bit of a detour from the topic here..)

If you're shooting in with multi second exposures you can forego linear grads entirely, and at the same time avoid a lot of the colour cast. (though in some situations the cast is desired because it helps you get vividly saturated red skies for sunsets etc.)
Often when I'm out shooting I bring a piece of dark cloth, or wear a dark jacket. When getting an exposure I can cover parts of the lens before slowly moving my forearm upwards to gradually reveal the scene. This requires a few practice shots, but when successful I'm able to pull off an exposure that nicely captures the scene with a balanced sky and foreground.
These are examples of where I used this technique:

Urban Jungle by Trond Strømme, on Flickr
and

Misty Forest by Trond Strømme, on Flickr

I like your blackarm external shutter GND equivalent technique; it has it applications and looks like it can provide quite good results.

 

[K-amps]

Hi Guys, can you share your experiences with stacking ND's?

e.g. 10 + 5 stopper stacked vs single 15 stopper. I already own the first two and buying a 15 stopper (NISI 150mm square ND ) will cost between $180-200, and I don't make money off this hobby, so it has to be thought through.

The NISI's have rubber gaskets, so there is no light leak between 2 stacked filters. However there might be some flare, or inconsistent color cast... (consistent cast is easy to fix in post, but not inconsistent) that's possible.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Ladislav]

Thanks for pointing me to NiSi. Any experience with NiSi? How these filters compare to LEE? I'm especially interested in ND grads as glass from NiSi is mostly for the same price as resin from LEE. They also offer reverse grad not available from LEE.

I still didn't buy LEE ND grads but I was almost about to start slowly with the LEE holder, little stopper and 3 stops soft grad but now I almost think that going for NiSi grad could be a better option.

Update: As I read about NiSi more I may even go for NiSi V5 holder instead of LEE. I like the design.

 

[surapon]

I am looking into purchasing some graduated ND filters and it seems like there is quite a variety out there with significant cost differences. I've read about the color changes etc. I wanted to see if there was anyone actually using the various filters that may give their experience. I would be most commonly using them for sunrise/sets or water scenes. I suspect most commonly on my Canon 16-35mm F2.8L II or 24-70mm F2.8L II.

These both have 82 mm filter sizes, so do you need another bracket to go to 77mm?
What filter stop difference is most commonly used 3? 6? 10?
Any other words of wisdom?

Thank you!

Dear friend Mr. Neurorx.
Yes, I try to shoot all of my Photos as best as possible in the Camera, With Minimum Time of Post Processing by Photoshop---Yes, I need a lot of Help from Coklin Creative Filter System ( Made in France).
AND IT's Work great too.
Good luck to you.
Surapon

 

[surapon]

Yes, I try to shoot all of my Photos as best as possible in the Camera, With Minimum Time of Post Processing by Photoshop---Yes, I need a lot of Help from Coklin Creative Filter System ( Made in France).
AND IT's Work great too.
Good luck to you.
Surapon