What's Next for Canon?

[AmbientLight]

What I would like to read or hear about would be a 1Ds Mark III successor.

Sadly a new M offering is much more likely. I might purchase that, if it offers increased usability or I might also purchase the original M, if the price keeps dropping, but that is not my focus and neither will this bring anything more than marginal revenue for Canon on my part.

Is this important to anyone? Probably not, but it kind of shows the dilemma, which is obvious both for Canon product management and actually in this thread as both suffer from discussing both mirrorless and large MP sensor topics at the same time.

Hopefully Canon will not neglect the high MP DSLR market in favor of a Medium Format offering only. I don't think it would be a good decision for Canon to only go into that tiny niche.

 

[Pag]

Antigravity: Because that's the only way you'll be able to handhold all day with a mirrorless, lenses which are quite hand-holdable with a gripped or pro body. Even something relatively dainty like a 100-400 would be unbalanced and awkward on a mirrorless. Unless you think it would be humorous to see people with a 70-200/2.8IS II on a gimbal head shooting a wedding... actually, that probably would be humorous for most of us

I checked and my mft Olympus E-P3 with a 14-150mm (equivalent to a 28-300mm on full frame) is actually smaller than my 6D with a Sigma 50mm f/1.4. It's quite easy to hold by hand. That's why I think mirrorless cameras work best with smaller sensors: the lenses can become much smaller too.

 

[AvTvM]

Off topic:
@Lichtgestalt: you got the kind of answers you provoked in the first place. Deal with it like a man.

On Topic:
I am convinced Canon and Nikon have missed the boat big time. Both failed to do enough for photo enthusiasts. EOS 7D II and D400 along with some more really good and affordable EF-S/DX lenses should have come 1 to 2 years ago. D600/610 and 6D should not have as marketing-crippled as they are, or much cheaper by now (USD/€ 999). Conon 5D III should be sold at the price of D800. All the Canon focus on video and hi-end cinema products does little to nothing for the market segment of photo enthusiasts and semi-pros. And the true Pro-segment is not growing but shrinking.

Sony A7/R are are pivot point for the industry. 36 MP FF-sensor, in a camera the size of a mFT mirrorless. Zeiss lenses to go with it and many more lesnes - including more affordable options will follow from all sides. Existing glass useable via adaptors. Imagine, Canon (or Nikon) would have brought or will eventually bring a MIL like the A7 and A7R. What do you guess would or will it cost at launch? Based on recent pricing decisions my guess is: more than USD 4000 for an A7R and around USD € 3500 for an A7.

Sony goes ahead and offers the A7/R at USD 2299 / 1699. It's almost unbelievable. Yes, I know lenses are needed too, and they don't come for free. Neither do Canon's or Nikon's.

Canon (and even more so Nikon, since they only got imaging business) are in for really difficult times. Even if they also bring FF MILCs to market, they will be almost 1 year late. And if they now try to charge 4k+ for them, they will be laughed at. I must admit, I really like this situation. Personally, I'm going to hang on to my 7D and Canon glass for some more time, and wait until I either can pick up a Sony A7 in a special 999, - deal or a Sony A9R with 5-axis IBIS and high-performance on-sensor phase-AF at less than 3 grand. Or a fully competitive Canon MILC at one of these price points. Whatever comes first.

 

[Lichtgestalt]

Off topic:
@Lichtgestalt: you got the kind of answers you provoked in the first place. Deal with it like a man.

nonsense!

i have insulted nobody in this thread.
the insulting replys where completely uncalled for.


i basically said, we can not decide what he should do.
and i really don´t care if anyone here thinks about switching... most think about it for years and nothing happens... they are still here.

so you have to ask yourself.. how serious are these people or what is it they want to achieve?

I am convinced Canon and Nikon have missed the boat big time.

keep hearing that for over 3 years now. people predicting hard times for the next year.
and still canon is doing well.

Canon (and even more so Nikon, since they only got imaging business) are in for really difficult times.

we will see.

in 2012 it did not look so bad for canon.... despite all the doomsday preacher.

http://fstoppers.com/examining-fiscal-year-2012-sales-for-olympus-sony-nikon-and-canon

feelings and what people think are one thing... the numbers are what counts.

 

[bvukich]

Antigravity: Because that's the only way you'll be able to handhold all day with a mirrorless, lenses which are quite hand-holdable with a gripped or pro body. Even something relatively dainty like a 100-400 would be unbalanced and awkward on a mirrorless. Unless you think it would be humorous to see people with a 70-200/2.8IS II on a gimbal head shooting a wedding... actually, that probably would be humorous for most of us

I checked and my mft Olympus E-P3 with a 14-150mm (equivalent to a 28-300mm on full frame) is actually smaller than my 6D with a Sigma 50mm f/1.4. It's quite easy to hold by hand.

I'm sure it is. But that tiny sensor will preclude it from serving many current DSLR rolls.

That's why I think mirrorless cameras work best with smaller sensors: the lenses can become much smaller too.

With the current state of the rest of the system, I totally agree with that. Unless it has a smaller sensor and corresponding lenses, or larger sensor and nice pancake primes; the size advantage is lost.

 

[AvTvM]

With the current state of the rest of the system, I totally agree with that. Unless it has a smaller sensor and corresponding lenses, or larger sensor and nice pancake primes; the size advantage is lost.

No it's not. With the native Zeiss 35/2.8 the A7/R is already a very small package. And while I personally don't care at all for a 35/2.8 @ 800 Euros I am sure there will soon be AF pancakess like the EF 40/2.8 available. Fully FF-capable, very small, optically decent, acceptable build quality and ... dirt cheap.

My preferred setup will be a 3 pancake steup with a WA 20mm/4.0 (mainly landscape/cityscapes), a normal-angle 40/2.0 (street, general purpose) and a short tele - 85/2.0 (portraits). Sizewise I would expect them like the Pentax limited pancakes. Pircewise I am hoping for 200 - 500. I´d prefer them as AF-only lenses, no focus ring, no manual focus gear, but fully weathersealed (IP 67).

 

[Ricku]

Now would be a good time for Canon to "leak" something about their upcoming high MP (and hopefully high DR) sensor. Sony has just announced the camera that thousands of canonites have been dreaming of.. And it takes EF lenses. :-X

I'm just speculating here, but Canon's silence could mean that their solution is still far far away, and that new sensor will debut in a 7.000 dollar 1D-body.

 

[baldaran]

Canon makes round about 2/3 of their money in camera segment with DSLR and about 1/3 with compact cameras. Mirrorless is still a niche product for them. From my point of view, canon has to change that.

In the next years, compact camera sales will decrease massively due to the pervasiveness of smartphones with integrated cameras. You can see the beginning of this development in the annual reports, where compact camera sales in q2 2013 dropped by 26% (!!!). Maybe, a small segment with large sensor compacts will remain.

From my point of view, many people who are willing to buy a camera want better image quality than current smartphones, but they want also gear that is handy. In the last years, they bought DSLRs, because there was no alternative. Now, with the emerging mirrorless market (and possibly large sensor compacts) there is an alternative to DSLR. Thats why i think, the DSLR market share will decrease in favor of mirrorless cameras (or even large sensor compacts). In future, DSLRs will be bought by semi-pros and enthusiasts, but no longer by the family father who wants to take nice holiday pictures. I think a high percentage of todays DSLR consumers fall in the latter category. If i see people with DSLR, they mostly take pictures in Auto or P mode with a superzoom or kit-lens. These people will no longer buy DSLR in future. They will switch to gear that is more handy but offers nearly similar image quality

 

[Kwanon]

Canon has not fallen of any boat.. They are doing well.
If anything Canon has spoiled us with great camera gear.

Only thing that has happened is that all the complaints in this forum has caught on and now every one is a complainer and you want a new 5D every single year (although the pattern has stayed exactly the same with release dates)
And you expect more and more features like you want to travel to space.

There are A TON of great Canon products and they will update every single camera right on time.
Just hold your complaints and get real.

It's not like theres a baboon is in charge of the company scratching its head and making random decisions based on what banana tastes good.

They are a real business in real world and they make the best decisions they can make. And from experience as a small business owner i know that if i was in charge of Canon i would not come to this forum and read constant complaints.
I would make business decisions based what is best for the company and what the share holders think is best.

Have some respect.

 

[AvTvM]

Canon has not fallen of any boat.. They are doing well.
If anything Canon has spoiled us with great camera gear.
Only thing that has happened is that all the complaints in this forum has caught on and now every one is a complainer and you want a new 5D every single year (although the pattern has stayed exactly the same with release dates)
And you expect more and more features like you want to travel to space.
There are A TON of great Canon products and they will update every single camera right on time.
Just hold your complaints and get real.

LOL. ;D

Travelling to space would be nice. But with Canon as the travel agency, it would probably be a one way ticket to the moon.

I don't expect Canon to build spaceships. A camera exactly like the Sony A7/R at the same price is all I am asking for.

 

[Kwanon]

Canon has not fallen of any boat.. They are doing well.
If anything Canon has spoiled us with great camera gear.
Only thing that has happened is that all the complaints in this forum has caught on and now every one is a complainer and you want a new 5D every single year (although the pattern has stayed exactly the same with release dates)
And you expect more and more features like you want to travel to space.
There are A TON of great Canon products and they will update every single camera right on time.
Just hold your complaints and get real.

LOL. ;D

Travelling to space would be nice. But with Canon as the travel agency, it would probably be a one way ticket to the moon.

I don't expect Canon to build spaceships. A camera exactly like the Sony A7/R at the same price is all I am asking for.

Exactly like the Sony A7/R? Then buy the Sony A7/R. What difference does it make if it says Sony on the front if that is your dream camera, it even eats Canon glass.

But i know you will come back to Canon when they make one that is even better.
Sony just created an affordable market for full frame cameras. You can't expect Canon to release their answer the same day.

 

[Eldar]

I just saw the weekend add from the largest photo&video shop in Norway. They had a full pager in the biggest newspaper in Norway. And this page was clinically free of Canon content. Sony A7, A7R and DMC-RX10, Nikon D5300, Fujifilm X-E2 and XQ1, Panasonic GM1 and .... no Canon. This is the first time I seen one of these with NO Canon offer.

So I repeat; The road to oblivion and to become the Nokia of the photography world is not that long ...

 

[Don Haines]

I am happy that higher-end cameras do not get updated every year.... There are not the sales numbers to justify the constant retooling. Rebels, different story...

It is very expensive to redesign a camera.... a lot of the fixed costs will be the same for a 1DX2 or a T6i, but the T6i will have a thousand times the number of bodies sold to spread the cost over.. A new body every year would double the cost of high end cameras, the increased cost would cause sales to drop, causing the next one to be even more expensive.... is that really what people want?

What do you really think is going on at Canon R+D? Do you think they are paying a division billions of dollars to play cards? Do you think they are going to tell the world what is coming in a years time and watch sales tank as people wait?

A good Canon mirrorless is coming... it is just a matter of time... All the pieces of the puzzle are in place in current Canon bodies except for one, the EVF. How many of you saw dual-pixel focus coming????? And you think that a company which can do that can not make/acquire an EVF, particularly when there have been high quality EVF's on the market for at least a year?

The announcement of the 7D2 is long overdue... the 70D is more capable than the 7D in many ways.... the 7D has become obsolete and is being deeply discounted, presumably to get rid of stock. The 7D2, according to Canon, will be "revolutionary".... To me, it seems very probable that the 7D2 will be a mirrorless crop camera that will introduce a new mount, the EFM mount, a full frame sized mirrorless mount that will be able to use all the existing EF and EF-S lenses with an adaptor.

 

[Kwanon]

Spend more money on Canon is the only right answer if you want new products.

Try to imagine how much money and talent and time is needed to develop a new 5D or a new 1D?
It's not exactly free.. We don't see it from the consumer side. We just demand and want lower prices.

If it costs lets say 100 million dollars to develop a new 1D camera, we ONLY pay 6000$ for it. It's dirt cheap to actually buy one if you think what goes in to actually making it.. We don't live in a dream world. We gotta pay to get some.

The same thing is happening with the video game industry. Every year it is more and more expensive to make great games and less and less people buy games. For example the PS vita is a great product, but no one buys it so there won't be many games made or a new better PS vita II in the future.
The customers are the only poison to any industry.

To create a situation where the camera business would be perfectly healthy, and a situation where we as customers would get all we want, the manufacturers need customers to buy their products.

In a perfect world all who want a new 5D faster than it is coming you should send 10 000$ to a kickstarter for a new 5D.
That would help some and if all did it it would help a lot.

 

[Loswr]

To me, it seems very probable that the 7D2 will be a mirrorless crop camera that will introduce a new mount, the EFM mount, a full frame sized mirrorless mount that will be able to use all the existing EF and EF-S lenses with an adaptor.

Equally probable that pigs will fly. Also, there's already an EF-M mount - on the EOS M.

I just saw the weekend add from the largest photo&video shop in Norway. They had a full pager in the biggest newspaper in Norway. And this page was clinically free of Canon content. Sony A7, A7R and DMC-RX10, Nikon D5300, Fujifilm X-E2 and XQ1, Panasonic GM1 and .... no Canon. This is the first time I seen one of these with NO Canon offer.

Could that be because everyone else announced new products (all the ones you listed) and Canon didn't? I'd call that an accident of timing, not an indication that Canon = Nokia.

 

[Lichtgestalt]

So I repeat; The road to oblivion and to become the Nokia of the photography world is not that long ...

uhhhooohhh... when does the kodak quotes come?

 

[Eldar]

I am happy that higher-end cameras do not get updated every year.... There are not the sales numbers to justify the constant retooling. Rebels, different story...

It is very expensive to redesign a camera.... a lot of the fixed costs will be the same for a 1DX2 or a T6i, but the T6i will have a thousand times the number of bodies sold to spread the cost over.. A new body every year would double the cost of high end cameras, the increased cost would cause sales to drop, causing the next one to be even more expensive.... is that really what people want?

What do you really think is going on at Canon R+D? Do you think they are paying a division billions of dollars to play cards? Do you think they are going to tell the world what is coming in a years time and watch sales tank as people wait?

A good Canon mirrorless is coming... it is just a matter of time... All the pieces of the puzzle are in place in current Canon bodies except for one, the EVF. How many of you saw dual-pixel focus coming????? And you think that a company which can do that can not make/acquire an EVF, particularly when there have been high quality EVF's on the market for at least a year?

The announcement of the 7D2 is long overdue... the 70D is more capable than the 7D in many ways.... the 7D has become obsolete and is being deeply discounted, presumably to get rid of stock. The 7D2, according to Canon, will be "revolutionary".... To me, it seems very probable that the 7D2 will be a mirrorless crop camera that will introduce a new mount, the EFM mount, a full frame sized mirrorless mount that will be able to use all the existing EF and EF-S lenses with an adaptor.

I fully agree with you on most points. As far as I know, the Canon R&D has not been reduced to cause concern, but I am concerned with where Canon is directing that investment. The latest innovation we have seen has a clear video twist to it. And I am sure many people would be interested in video, but I am not. I am not even very interested in mirrorless cameras. I want maximum IQ from a stills camera. The 1DX is still the best action, wildlife body available. I am very happy with it and I don´t believe we can or should expect an update for some time yet. Nikon´s alternative is the D4 and the 1DX wins that battle. But an alternative to beat the 800E is missing and it has been missing for some time and Canon is dead quite about when we will get it.

I was very close to buy a Phase One, but a +40MP body, with improved DR and Zeiss Otus lenses would cover that need, at a much lower cost (even though this forum has gone bananas over the Otus 55/1.4 price). And with such a body I would get full use of the 17 and 24 TS-E lenses ...

 

[AvTvM]

...
The customers are the only poison to any industry.
...

That might very well summarize how Canon sees its customers. ;D

 

[Lichtgestalt]

I was very close to buy a Phase One, but a +40MP body, with improved DR and Zeiss Otus lenses would cover that need, at a much lower cost (even though this forum has gone bananas over the Otus 55/1.4 price). And with such a body I would get full use of the 17 and 24 TS-E lenses ...

then buy a phase one .. i have one and i love it.
what keeps you from buying what you need?

???

 

[Loswr]

As far as I know, the Canon R&D has not been reduced to cause concern, but I am concerned with where Canon is directing that investment. The latest innovation we have seen has a clear video twist to it. And I am sure many people would be interested in video, but I am not. I am not even very interested in mirrorless cameras. I want maximum IQ from a stills camera.

Times are changing, and Canon is skating to where they think the puck will be. Printing used to be the primary output format for photography, but today prints represent a miniscule fraction of how images are presented - the vast majority of still photographs are viewed on a device which can also display video. If a picture is 'worth a thousand words' then a video is worth a million. Used to be you hired a wedding photographer. Then you hired both a photographer and a videographer, in part because the video quality wasn't very good. Now, many brides are hiring only videographers (many of whom take a few stills, but even if they don't a frame from HD video is more than sufficient for Facebook...).

I'm a photo guy, not a video guy. But in a few years, my kids will be saying, "These silly pictures don't even move, s'up with that?!?"