There will be an EOS M/EF-M announcement this year [CR1]

speg

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Sep 14, 2020
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...I'm interested in reading more about your upgrade.

Thanks for posting.

Well, I do miss the size of the M50. Not that the RP is huge or anything, but when you include the lens size.. the M series is very nice. I will miss that when out and about. Even around the house with the kids, it's a bit less intrusive. I also only have one RF lens at the moment so that doesn't help. I was hoping for some better low light performance but so far it hasn't been overly impressive. Again not bad, but just not leaps and bounds above the M50.

I still think it is the right choice though, given the future of the RF line vs the EF-M. Once I get my hands on the 70-200 I probably won't look back. :)
 
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josephandrews222

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Well, I do miss the size of the M50. Not that the RP is huge or anything, but when you include the lens size.. the M series is very nice. I will miss that when out and about. Even around the house with the kids, it's a bit less intrusive. I also only have one RF lens at the moment so that doesn't help. I was hoping for some better low light performance but so far it hasn't been overly impressive. Again not bad, but just not leaps and bounds above the M50.

I still think it is the right choice though, given the future of the RF line vs the EF-M. Once I get my hands on the 70-200 I probably won't look back. :)

There is no doubt that your R-mount gear will enable acquisition of superior images in low-light shooting. I will be making that jump soon, too!

But for my purposes there remains room for the M-mount gear as well...and I plan to continue to utilize it often.

I do cringe a bit at your 'given the future of the RF line vs the EF-M' statement.

I am reminded of an oft-used two-word quote: your statement might just be 'Fake News' from the mainstream media! ;)
 
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Maps

EOS M7 (please)
Jan 10, 2021
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...not sure I understand. I'm invested in all of what Canon has sold...for decades. And I will invest in R soon...whether or not M exists.

If it does not exist, I go elsewhere for compact gear.

Enlighten me: what, specifically, is in financial reports about EF-M (no snark Intended)?

Thank you for the “no snark” tag. :) None intended from my end either! Canon have seen their profits fall off a cliff in the iPhone era, as has every other manufacturer. I think we’re all on the same page there. The M mount has existed across that timeframe and has sold really well for Canon (and as you’ve pointed out and I totally agree with, is a great product). If a product is selling really well, but the company is losing a lot of money, it would suggest to me that the profit/margin on that product is not very high. Good for you and me, not so good for the company.

Canon have stated over the last couple years that their solution to this problem is to focus on high-end imaging, where the margins are much better. They can charge whatever they want for a high-end camera, as long as they give it sufficient specs to justify the cost. It costs more to manufacture, but not that much more than an APS-C unit, a lot of the components are the same… Looking at the latest report (which is tough to dissect because of Covid), the strategy seems to be working. They sold way fewer cameras this year than past years, but because so many of them were R5s/6s, profits improved quite a bit.

So, sort of to summarize the thinking is... let phones have the entire low-end market. There’s no need for EF-M, micro4/3, or other cheaper APS-C solutions. You and I both like them, but go outside and see what the majority of people are taking pictures with… we’re part of an increasingly small group. You just can’t sell enough of these “entry level” cameras anymore to make any kind of real profit to justify the effort. Instead, focus on expensive high-end cameras that can do the things that phones cannot do and won’t be able to do for the foreseeable future. You’ll sell a lot fewer cameras than you used to, but make a lot of money every time you do sell one.

Also, be careful of using logic from 10 years ago. Many people will immediately point out that Rebels were where Canon made most of their money... 10 years ago. Totally true in years past, but phones weren’t competitors then. This is a much different market and it requires a much different approach. I know you’re not going to like any of this… I don’t like it either. I wouldn’t even ask you to agree with me; but can you see how the line of thinking goes, even if you absolutely hate it?
 
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Maps

EOS M7 (please)
Jan 10, 2021
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Strange statement because if you look back through Canon's financials they have called the M50 one of their strongest selling cameras in many quarters since its release.

Stop me if I’m wrong here, but wasn’t the wording “strong-selling” or something to that effect? I don’t remember them saying anything about “profitable”. Could be wrong? But one, one thousand, one million, or one trillion X $0 all equal $0.
 
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stevelee

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Jul 6, 2017
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It would seem that R&D spending for the M line is mostly in the past, so if they are selling well, they should be profitable. Of course, I don’t know.

I don’t want to see the line going away, even though there is not a lot of chance that I will buy one. I looked seriously at the M50 for a travel camera before my fall, 2019, month in Europe. But I decided on the G5X II instead, for even greater convenience. The 1” sensor of the G7X II had served me well in the past for prints up to 13” x 19”, and the popup viewfinder was a welcome addition for shooting out in bright sun. I could see myself owning an M series camera, but in reality, I never made a good case to myself for when I might use it. If I’m home or traveling by car, I can easily use my FF equipment. If traveling by plane or train, I would take the small travel camera. My main video project didn’t take place last summer, and I was in Denmark when the event happened in 2019. So I tend not to give much thought to video considerations.
 
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josephandrews222

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Thank you for the “no snark” tag. :) None intended from my end either! Canon have seen their profits fall off a cliff in the iPhone era, as has every other manufacturer. I think we’re all on the same page there. The M mount has existed across that timeframe and has sold really well for Canon (and as you’ve pointed out and I totally agree with, is a great product). If a product is selling really well, but the company is losing a lot of money, it would suggest to me that the profit/margin on that product is not very high. Good for you and me, not so good for the company.

Canon have stated over the last couple years that their solution to this problem is to focus on high-end imaging, where the margins are much better. They can charge whatever they want for a high-end camera, as long as they give it sufficient specs to justify the cost. It costs more to manufacture, but not that much more than an APS-C unit, a lot of the components are the same… Looking at the latest report (which is tough to dissect because of Covid), the strategy seems to be working. They sold way fewer cameras this year than past years, but because so many of them were R5s/6s, profits improved quite a bit.

So, sort of to summarize the thinking is... let phones have the entire low-end market. There’s no need for EF-M, micro4/3, or other cheaper APS-C solutions. You and I both like them, but go outside and see what the majority of people are taking pictures with… we’re part of an increasingly small group. You just can’t sell enough of these “entry level” cameras anymore to make any kind of real profit to justify the effort. Instead, focus on expensive high-end cameras that can do the things that phones cannot do and won’t be able to do for the foreseeable future. You’ll sell a lot fewer cameras than you used to, but make a lot of money every time you do sell one.

Also, be careful of using logic from 10 years ago. Many people will immediately point out that Rebels were where Canon made most of their money... 10 years ago. Totally true in years past, but phones weren’t competitors then. This is a much different market and it requires a much different approach. I know you’re not going to like any of this… I don’t like it either. I wouldn’t even ask you to agree with me; but can you see how the line of thinking goes, even if you absolutely hate it?

Absolutely I see your line of thinking.

Every year (since 1997) I build a 12 month calendar for family and friends--one image per month. This year's calendar images were all but one generated by iPhones...largely because of the pandemic.

I still think there's a place for the M mount. What phones have killed are point and shoot...an S95 has served me very very well...could go on and on.

For me, the M is essential to how I acquire images...and I will pay a premium for more advanced Ms down the road.
 
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slclick

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Dec 17, 2013
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Absolutely I see your line of thinking.

Every year (since 1997) I build a 12 month calendar for family and friends--one image per month. This year's calendar images were all but one generated by iPhones...largely because of the pandemic.

I still think there's a place for the M mount. What phones have killed are point and shoot...an S95 has served me very very well...could go on and on.

For me, the M is essential to how I acquire images...and I will pay a premium for more advanced Ms down the road.
Funny you say that because for me, the jump from an iPhone 8 to a 12 has killed my need to have anything other than my FF gear. And if I do get another camera besides my Canon ILC's? It will be a point and shoot, like an X100V. Reasoning? Like the poster said earlier about being in the moment whilst on holiday and such and not using bulky gear, having a fixed lens camera is even quicker and simpler.
Go figure, right? Different strokes, yadda yadda...
 
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josephandrews222

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Funny you say that because for me, the jump from an iPhone 8 to a 12 has killed my need to have anything other than my FF gear. And if I do get another camera besides my Canon ILC's? It will be a point and shoot, like an X100V. Reasoning? Like the poster said earlier about being in the moment whilst on holiday and such and not using bulky gear, having a fixed lens camera is even quicker and simpler.
Go figure, right? Different strokes, yadda yadda...

It is amazing how much M gear you can get in a small backpack. Amazing. And the tripod is way way smaller.

I use my 6s for photography purposes a lot.

...I've 'borrowed' my daughter's 12. It is better. The ultra-wide is pretty good.

But nothing like an APS-C sized sensor. And nothing like the precise controls that the M6 Mark II offers.

Nothing.

I much appreciate your use case...for me the M 22mm mated to any M but especially the M2/M10/M200-sized bodies works well for what you describe...and does fit in my pocket. All for maybe not pennies on the dollar...but certainly dimes.

But you're right...the modern P&S cameras are better...as I described up-thread...a Canon S95 served us very, very, very well.
 
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josephandrews222

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Funny you say that because for me, the jump from an iPhone 8 to a 12 has killed my need to have anything other than my FF gear. And if I do get another camera besides my Canon ILC's? It will be a point and shoot, like an X100V. Reasoning? Like the poster said earlier about being in the moment whilst on holiday and such and not using bulky gear, having a fixed lens camera is even quicker and simpler.
Go figure, right? Different strokes, yadda yadda...

CR, I think, has seen one of these previously.

The best camera/lens combination is what's in your hands.

In Dec 2017 visited the Dolphin hotel at WDW.

...packed my M6 and three lenses: 22, 11-22 and 18-150.

Needed to run back to our room and switch to the 18-150 when youngest daughter spotted what looked like an eagle on the right-side dolphin.

IMG_0767 copy of PS3 fix downsized - Copy.jpg

Sure enough...

IMG_0583 resized cr - Copy.jpg

...and finally:

IMG_0714 ps3 fix cr - Copy (2).jpg

...not as dramatic as the baldies fishing and diving and capturing on the Mississippi River...in fact, this eagle has a much much larger fish to carry!

I certainly wish I had more lens for the last shot...but the EF-M 18-150 was as much focal length as I had packed...and it, when mated to the M6...was 'good enough' for our purposes: not to sell, but to share with family and friends.

I have no illusions about my own skill level and am quite certain that some of the pros who post here could have done better. Indeed, I learn some by reading posts here.

But the flexibility offered by Canon's M format really is amazing.

Thanks for reading!
 
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slclick

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It is amazing how much M gear you can get in a small backpack. Amazing. And the tripod is way way smaller.

I use my 6s for photography purposes a lot.

...I've 'borrowed' my daughter's 12. It is better. The ultra-wide is pretty good.

But nothing like an APS-C sized sensor. And nothing like the precise controls that the M6 Mark II offers.

Nothing.

I much appreciate your use case...for me the M 22mm mated to any M but especially the M2/M10/M200-sized bodies works well for what you describe...and does fit in my pocket. All for maybe not pennies on the dollar...but certainly dimes.

But you're right...the modern P&S cameras are better...as I described up-thread...a Canon S95 served us very, very, very well.
Two things...you mentioned the S95. We had one as well (Neuro loved his too) The other thing is my M5, while I thought it was laid out far more intelligently than other small crops in terms of dials and customization, it's Powershot menu system was a turd.They mos def had the wrong team working on the M's. All I ever thought about was when will they make an M5ll. I have to have a viewfinder so the M6ll never appealed to me. I did LOVE the 22 on the M5, I could use it like a point and shoot. At the time, there was only about 5-6 lenses so it was easy to let it all go.

image:Waimea Canyon, Christmas Day M5, EF-M 22
 

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josephandrews222

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Funny you say that because for me, the jump from an iPhone 8 to a 12 has killed my need to have anything other than my FF gear. And if I do get another camera besides my Canon ILC's? It will be a point and shoot, like an X100V. Reasoning? Like the poster said earlier about being in the moment whilst on holiday and such and not using bulky gear, having a fixed lens camera is even quicker and simpler.
Go figure, right? Different strokes, yadda yadda...


...from the link:

Key camera specifications:
  • Primary: 12 MP sensor (1.7µ photo sites), 26 mm-equivalent f/1.6-aperture lens, sensor shift OIS, PDAF
  • Ultra-wide: 12 MP 1/3.6″ sensor, 13 mm-equivalent (14 mm measured) f/2.4-aperture lens
  • Tele: 12 MP 1/3.4″ sensor, 65 mm-equivalent f/2.2-aperture lens, PDAF, OIS
XXXXX

My trusty S95 packs a 1/1.7" sensor...and a 28-105 equivalent lens (but f4.9 at the long end).

I very much look forward to a bit more zoom in Apple's tele...larger sensor size is probably too much to ask.

Perhaps an iPhone 13 is in my future...

I can think of two sets of use cases where the S95 was fantastic.

(1) Eldest daughter graduated from a decent school in England in 2010...we traveled there and to France (my first time) for her graduation.

At the time we visited Paris for a few days, there were warnings GALORE about pickpockets.

Like Bob Seger sang, I'm just a 'midwest boy all his own' and (a) didn't want to risk losing money and more; and

(b) wanted to enjoy the sights. So it was one camera in Paris: the S95. My wife and daughters appreciated that.

So 100% of the few hundred images we acquired (daughters had the Powershot 300 cameras...even tinier than the S95 but a tad smaller sensor) were with the S95.

Even now I marvel at the images and image quality...had books made and printed at what is now Printique (adoramapix, I think).

Now oldest daughter sends occasional iPhone 11 pix my way--shockingly good.

Youngest daughter has a 12...

(2) What I really like(d) about the S95 is the way exposure compensation is modified--hell I don't know the name of the dial but it is a little knurled dial in the lower right of the back of the camera. This is REALLY useful when shooting concert pictures. Of course no viewfinder but it 'just works' when holding the camera a foot or so from ones eyes and quickly changing EC when lighting changes. And don't forget: the S95 is TRULY pocket-sized (think concert security).

So rock concerts are a nice use case for an S95.

But now that I think about it...my iPhone 6s worked well when standing close (but not next) to the stage for a Janelle Monae concert.

So what do I know!

IMG_2381 fix.JPGIMG_2448 fix.JPGIMG_2544 fix.JPGIMG_2556 fix.JPG

iPhone 6s sensor size: 1/3"

Thanks for reading.
 
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Sep 20, 2020
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If a product is selling really well, but the company is losing a lot of money,
Canon is not losing money.
Their revenue tanked because they are selling significantly fewer point & shoot and DSLR cameras.
Canon had one money-losing quarter during the pandemic but so did pretty much the entire world,
 
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Maps

EOS M7 (please)
Jan 10, 2021
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Canon is not losing money.
Their revenue tanked because they are selling significantly fewer point & shoot and DSLR cameras.
Canon had one money-losing quarter during the pandemic but so did pretty much the entire world,

You’re absolutely right. Poor choice of words on my part. I meant that their revenue was declining, not that they were operating at a loss.
 
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canonmike

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Jan 5, 2013
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The EOS-M line may be coming to an end but it occupies a special place in my heart simply by virtue of its compactness and competency. Feature wise and performance wise my M6 does just enough that I have no qualms about bringing my M6 with me to most places. Results wise I still prefer the images from my full frame kit but I’ve never felt so liberated from the burden of carrying my gear. And my M6 has taken a fair proportion of my favourite images over the past 3 years simply because I have it with me as an everyday walk about camera. The relative low cost of the lenses is also favorable as it has enabled building a system with a fairly low expenditure.
Two very good points, perfectly expressed.
 
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I think Canon has gone back and forth with the M system. At first they just wanted in the Mirrorless game without cannibalizing their cash cow - the DSLR. Later when the writing was on the wall they realized they'd have to bring out the EF equivalent mirrorless and have an advantage over Sony's tiny mount so they came out with the RF. Now they have a problem, the bean counters don't like that Canon is developing more than one type of sensor and they have to create two types of lenses. However, at the end of the day so does everyone else. Sony makes APS-C lenses for the E-Mount and smaller sensors for the 6x00 series. Just because they have the same mount doesn't mean all of the lenses are the same. The Sony way looks better on paper because in our minds (and Sony marketing department) you can take your lenses with you when you upgrade from the 6x00 to the A7x or A9x but not if you bought APS-C lenses! If you did you're in the same boat as going from EF-M to RF (yes, I know you can shoot at 10 or 12mp on a Sony FF with an APS-C lens, but who does that?).

The difference is that RF is good at being a serious large camera. EF-M is good at being a smaller, lighter ameteur camera. The E mount is good at the latter and mediocre at the former. Canon could capitalize on this if they keep their heads on straight.

We don't really need "L" glass on EF-M, that's not what it's for. Having reasonably fast clear lenses like the 30mm f/1.4 serves our purpose. Give us a fast 15mm, a fast 50mm and a fast 85mm that are still small and light. Also give us a "faster" short zoom 15-45 and a longer zoom 100-300 and it would probably cover just about anything we'd ever do with an EF-M camera. As for cameras, an M5 Mkii would take care of us until the mkiii's came out which would include clog and real 4k. Beyond that, I don't care.

Oh, one more thing. Canon should include a trade-in program for anyone going from EF-M to RF for good will and to keep people in the family. I think there's room for an M200, M50, M6 and M5 for a long time as long as we have lenses. The EF-M market will never be served well by RF. It would be wise of Canon to realize this and continue to serve the EF-M market with EF-M cameras.
 
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