Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
neuroanatomist said:
douglaurent said:
Now THESE are really things that the whole world is waiting and asking for! Congrats! Much more important than seeing the actual exposure in the viewfinder or a dedicated ISO wheel!
Who cares if it's a few milliseconds behind the real world. Who cares if it's not the actual exposure because an EVF is showing an 8-bit jpg'd version of the world and I'm capturing a RAW image.
In fairness, the eye/brain already have a 100ms delay; adding another 50ms (the current EVF best, I believe) is probably tolerable for most purposes. Also, if it's 50ms now, in "a few years" (I've given up predicting) it'll be low enough that it's not really noticeable.

Along those same lines, the fact that the current EVFs are limited to standardized 8-bit images does not mean it will always be so. A fully mature EVF will be configurable to meet the photographers needs; i.e., set your own curve.

I agree that EVF is not a full match for OVF, but it's getting there, and it's close enough that we can say that there's no essential quality of EVF that will prevent it from reaching the level of "fully adequate."
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,173
1,726
Canada
Orangutan said:
neuroanatomist said:
douglaurent said:
Now THESE are really things that the whole world is waiting and asking for! Congrats! Much more important than seeing the actual exposure in the viewfinder or a dedicated ISO wheel!
Who cares if it's a few milliseconds behind the real world. Who cares if it's not the actual exposure because an EVF is showing an 8-bit jpg'd version of the world and I'm capturing a RAW image.
In fairness, the eye/brain already have a 100ms delay; adding another 50ms (the current EVF best, I believe) is probably tolerable for most purposes. Also, if it's 50ms now, in "a few years" (I've given up predicting) it'll be low enough that it's not really noticeable.

Along those same lines, the fact that the current EVFs are limited to standardized 8-bit images does not mean it will always be so. A fully mature EVF will be configurable to meet the photographers needs; i.e., set your own curve.

I agree that EVF is not a full match for OVF, but it's getting there, and it's close enough that we can say that there's no essential quality of EVF that will prevent it from reaching the level of "fully adequate."
I believe that the lag time on the OM-D E-M1 II is 8ms (depending on the mode the camera is in, as low as 5!!!!!), and that the wider colour range that the sensor can capture is mapped onto the 8 bits of colour resolution of the EVF (betcha 16 bit EVF is on the way)
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
Don Haines said:
Orangutan said:
neuroanatomist said:
douglaurent said:
Now THESE are really things that the whole world is waiting and asking for! Congrats! Much more important than seeing the actual exposure in the viewfinder or a dedicated ISO wheel!
Who cares if it's a few milliseconds behind the real world. Who cares if it's not the actual exposure because an EVF is showing an 8-bit jpg'd version of the world and I'm capturing a RAW image.
In fairness, the eye/brain already have a 100ms delay; adding another 50ms (the current EVF best, I believe) is probably tolerable for most purposes. Also, if it's 50ms now, in "a few years" (I've given up predicting) it'll be low enough that it's not really noticeable.

Along those same lines, the fact that the current EVFs are limited to standardized 8-bit images does not mean it will always be so. A fully mature EVF will be configurable to meet the photographers needs; i.e., set your own curve.

I agree that EVF is not a full match for OVF, but it's getting there, and it's close enough that we can say that there's no essential quality of EVF that will prevent it from reaching the level of "fully adequate."
I believe that the lag time on the OM-D E-M1 II is 8ms (depending on the mode the camera is in, as low as 5!!!!!), and that the wider colour range that the sensor can capture is mapped onto the 8 bits of colour resolution of the EVF (betcha 16 bit EVF is on the way)
That's impressive -- 8ms lag will be unnoticeable. 16-bit EVF + ability to set the EVF tone curve checks the boxes for EVF quality. So what's left to do is:

  • Power consumption
  • Low light image quality and focus
  • CDAF speed, accuracy and tracking

All of these continue to advance. When will it be ready? Dunno. As things stand, I agree that a hybrid OVF/EVF may be the transition step.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,617
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A few milliseconds... The baseball is in the frame with the batter, or not. The football is just brushing the receiver's fingertips, or the catch is complete. I've had my entire life to get used to my visual system's lag.

EVFs will continue to approach OVF performance in terms of accurately representing the real world. But...we're not there yet.
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
neuroanatomist said:
A few milliseconds... The baseball is in the frame with the batter, or not. The football is just brushing the receiver's fingertips, or the catch is complete. I've had my entire life to get used to my visual system's lag.

EVFs will continue to approach OVF performance in terms of accurately representing the real world. But...we're not there yet.
Do you play video games? Do you get used to the lag? Does it seem like a lag, or just part of game play? Lag will come down, and EVF users will become accustomed to the residual.

We are not there yet, but this is an empirical target not a theoretical one: when photographers feel that the lag is low enough then it is.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,617
2,089
Orangutan said:
neuroanatomist said:
A few milliseconds... The baseball is in the frame with the batter, or not. The football is just brushing the receiver's fingertips, or the catch is complete. I've had my entire life to get used to my visual system's lag.

EVFs will continue to approach OVF performance in terms of accurately representing the real world. But...we're not there yet.
Do you play video games? Do you get used to the lag? Does it seem like a lag, or just part of game play? Lag will come down, and EVF users will become accustomed to the residual.

We are not there yet, but this is an empirical target not a theoretical one: when photographers feel that the lag is low enough then it is.
Agreed. But the implication that today, the features that can be implemented with an EVF come without any sacrifice in optical performance, is simply ludicrous. For some, that sacrifice is worth it. For others, not.
 

TAF

EOS RP
Feb 26, 2012
344
35
There seems to be an implicit assumption that the camera will look like a DSLR, or perhaps a traditional mirrorless (Leica).

Makes sense if they are aiming for the traditional market, and thinking prosumer. But what if they have a different thought in mind?

Perhaps Canon is going to attempt to blur the border between 35mm and MF and come out with a 100-200 MP camera, using a 24x36 sensor, but in a body reminiscent of a Hasseblad 500 or Rollei SL66 (Rollei made a 35mm camera just like this, the SL2002 and SL3003; they were marvelous).

EF mount? 'Depth' is not an issue. Really large screen on top? Same. Plenty of space for batteries and memory; the attachable hand grip is a nice profit item...

If you've ever used a camera in that form factor, you know that it is much easier to stabilize it when shooting by having a taut strap around your neck.

Not great for sports, but landscapes, scenery, and models? Perfect.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
Orangutan said:
douglaurent said:
EXACTLY! Nobody wants to give up the Canon advantages or leave the Canon brand. This is why Canon should simply add useful and modern features to their existing products. This is what a forum discussion about future Canon camera products is all about.
That would add to the price because Canon won't include those features for free.


What is NOT helpful is a signal to Canon from their userbase, essentially telling them "everything is great the way it is, and nobody needs stupid new features, cheaper prices, faster product and firmware updates etc".
Ah, the truth comes out!

What we say on the forums has almost zero effect on the manufacturers -- they do serious market analysis, they don't spend time on forums infested with daydreamers and trolls.

However, in case Canon is listening: I want the 6D MkII to be a FF version of the 80D, and have an initial retail price under $1,000...and it should come with a pony! ;D :p
If nobody at Canon analyzes the most important social media websites about their products 2017, it would be another sign how much they are behind. This decade did show that Canon and Nikon are not very good in analyzing, especially in thinking mirrorless needs new mounts, small sensors and no 4k. They gave away that business to Sony, Panasonic and others = stupid move.

The only major Canon success was the invention of the cinema camera lineup, which only came by surprise to a user base who celebrated the video function on the 5D2.

Canon also gave away more than half of their dominance in terms of lenses in recent years. In fact you can do 90% of all imaginable shots with cheaper third party lenses, and nobody would see a difference. Do you think Canon wanted that to happen intentionally because their great reasearch teams told them so? The fact is: Canon is a really slow thinking and slow acting company, and they need to wake up.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
Mikehit said:
douglaurent said:
I have approx 50 cameras and 300 lenses, which is why I know what I'm talking about. What do you own exactly?

It seems you will be really angry about Canon when they start to release mirrorless cameras in 2018, and starting to implement my stupid little whiny points. Sad for you that Canon turns into a mirrorless loser company like Sony in the coming years. Then you can only remember the great times between 2008 and 2018, when Canon DSLRs had hardly any significant improvements between each model.
I feel sorry for you. You are so wrapped up in stating what you want in a camera that you are totally, absolutely and pathologically unable to understand what we are saying.

No-one (let me repeat that so you understand) NO-ONE is saying Canon should not incorporate the 20+ points you mentioned. No-ONE has said they would not find them useful. In fact, everyone agrees Canon will release FF mirrorless cameras. Where people are arguing against you is your insistence that Canon have to do it immediately and that if they do not, Canon are heading for the scrapheap.

Incidentally, the functions you mention arise out of the techology - they are installed because the technololgy make it possible. The camera is not designed to deliver them.
Nice words, just none of you and the other ultra fanboys ever wrote that all those missing features and are good to have in future Canon cameras. So if no Canon user does tell it publicly, why should Canon start to care?

I am also not talking about releasing things over night. But Canon is slow and always limiting its products, and with this speed, they will have a mirrorless fullframe competitor with all relevant basics not before the year 2020. This means Sony already has an advantage of min. 5 years. That can be a wasted 1/8th of the whole professional work life of a photographer and filmmaker, who wants to work with Canon and needs to be up to date in terms of technology.

Large corporations are like political parties: no pressure from the outside = no change.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
Mikehit said:
douglaurent said:
Mikehit said:
unfocused said:
rrcphoto said:
...and I really doubt you have all these cameras, and as you say - use them every day. frankly I doubt you have anything other than a freaking Fischer price camera that you play with in your mom's basement.
In a previous thread, he indicated that he owns/runs a rental business. I find that plausible. But, that would also help explain the obsessive fascination with "features." Photographers who use a camera day in and day out and rely on it to put food on the table tend to be less enamored of new features. Instead, most want a reliable tool that they are familiar with and produces predictable and repeatable results. A rental shop owner needs to provide the latest toys and tools for people to try out and to use for specialized purposes. The mistake Mr. Laurent seems to be making is thinking that his experience and preferences can be extended to a majority or even a sizable minority of photographers.
Then again, someone who runs a rental business and claims to have every camera available to them would know the sort of thing the general consumer wants and how it fits into the general market.
Douglaurent seems to be ignorant of both.
Not really. A few years ago you could have satisfied people with 100% Canon branded products. Today Canon requests are 25% and the rest is Sony, Panasonic, Sigma etc. If you don't see this shift, good luck for you.
When you say 'Canon requests are 25%....' - 25% of what?
Who is making those requests to whom?
#

People who rent stuff. Years ago it was all 5D2, 5D3, C100, C300 etc - now the hot shit are FS7, A7S2, GH5 etc etc
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,617
2,089
douglaurent said:
If nobody at Canon analyzes the most important social media websites about their products 2017, it would be another sign how much they are behind. This decade did show that Canon and Nikon are not very good in analyzing, especially in thinking mirrorless needs new mounts, small sensors and no 4k. They gave away that business to Sony, Panasonic and others = stupid move.

The only major Canon success was the invention of the cinema camera lineup, which only came by surprise to a user base who celebrated the video function on the 5D2.

Canon also gave away more than half of their dominance in terms of lenses in recent years. In fact you can do 90% of all imaginable shots with cheaper third party lenses, and nobody would see a difference. Do you think Canon wanted that to happen intentionally because their great reasearch teams told them so? The fact is: Canon is a really slow thinking and slow acting company, and they need to wake up.
Only success was Cinema EOS? Gave away lens dominance? It's you that needs to wake up. Canon has led the global ILC market for over 14 years (that's dSLRs, MILCs, and lenses combined, in case you don't understand what 'ILC market' means). Last year, Canon gained further market share at the expense of both Sony and Nikon, and Canon now holds just shy of 50% of the ILC market. The fact is: you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,153
390
douglaurent said:
Mikehit said:
douglaurent said:
I have approx 50 cameras and 300 lenses, which is why I know what I'm talking about. What do you own exactly?

It seems you will be really angry about Canon when they start to release mirrorless cameras in 2018, and starting to implement my stupid little whiny points. Sad for you that Canon turns into a mirrorless loser company like Sony in the coming years. Then you can only remember the great times between 2008 and 2018, when Canon DSLRs had hardly any significant improvements between each model.
I feel sorry for you. You are so wrapped up in stating what you want in a camera that you are totally, absolutely and pathologically unable to understand what we are saying.

No-one (let me repeat that so you understand) NO-ONE is saying Canon should not incorporate the 20+ points you mentioned. No-ONE has said they would not find them useful. In fact, everyone agrees Canon will release FF mirrorless cameras. Where people are arguing against you is your insistence that Canon have to do it immediately and that if they do not, Canon are heading for the scrapheap.

Incidentally, the functions you mention arise out of the techology - they are installed because the technololgy make it possible. The camera is not designed to deliver them.
Nice words, just none of you and the other ultra fanboys ever wrote that all those missing features and are good to have in future Canon cameras. So if no Canon user does tell it publicly, why should Canon start to care?

I am also not talking about releasing things over night. But Canon is slow and always limiting its products, and with this speed, they will have a mirrorless fullframe competitor with all relevant basics not before the year 2020. This means Sony already has an advantage of min. 5 years. That can be a wasted 1/8th of the whole professional work life of a photographer and filmmaker, who wants to work with Canon and needs to be up to date in terms of technology.

Large corporations are like political parties: no pressure from the outside = no change.
By all means, tell Canon what you think they should be working on. It can't hurt and it might help. However saying that you are the only one who knows how to think about these things properly and that people who disagree with you are stupid Canon fanboys is not helpful in my opinion. If Canon doesn't know what is out there in the marketplace, it probably is in fact doomed.

Some elements of the Canon development strategy seem clear to me. Great UWA, normal and 70-200 EF zooms, Live View/mirrorless autofocus based on dual pixel technology, and strong APS-C offerings to maintain its market base. How many of us really need Full Frame anyway?... and how big do you print?

They may not have been cutting edge on EVF or video specs and features and this really seems to bother you. I doubt that the reason is that they don't have a clue or that they are deliberately crippling lower price products to protect higher lines. Some of the lag may be because these are areas where dual pixel technology is the key to their strategy, and that has been falling into place over the last couple of years. Also, to some extent, Canon may be letting others find the technological dead ends and marketing fizzles for them.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,617
2,089
douglaurent said:
And I fear that those who work at Canon do NOT have access to 200 other branded products and do compare. Most of all they are employed and will not have that much time to compare. Even those who work at B&H who have access to thousands of lenses and cameras will never have the same amount of time to compare.
Right. Because a multi billion market cap company doesn't have the resources to buy competitors' products, nor the resources to employ a department full of people who's job it is to benchmark those products against internal efforts. Why would a company care about what their competition is doing, anyway? ::)

Honestly, it's a bit sad watching you continually embarrass yourself with your posts on this forum.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,227
416
douglaurent said:
Nice words, just none of you and the other ultra fanboys ever wrote that all those missing features and are good to have in future Canon cameras.
I have - several times. You are just unable to comprehend that we should. It passes you by every time because all you want to do is spout your own myopic view and you love the idea of being the pariah thinking outside the box. You are not.
 

Orangutan

EOR R
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
neuroanatomist said:
douglaurent said:
And I fear that those who work at Canon do NOT have access to 200 other branded products and do compare. Most of all they are employed and will not have that much time to compare. Even those who work at B&H who have access to thousands of lenses and cameras will never have the same amount of time to compare.
Right. Because a multi billion market cap company doesn't have the resources to buy competitors' products, nor the resources to employ people who's job it is to benchmark those products against internal efforts. Why would a company care about what their competition is doing, anyway? ::)

Honestly, it's a bit sad watching you continually embarrass yourself with your posts on this forum.
I think he's extrapolating his own experience: he has a small rental business, and extrapolates what people want by what they rent from him. He doesn't understand that there are at least two problems with that way of thinking: first, that his small business is not statistically representative (a larger company like LensRentals might be closer). Second, people rent from him the equipment the aren't willing to buy. A7S2 and GH5 are not terribly expensive, so anyone who rents one is clearly saying they think it has a very specific use, but they don't want to tie up money in it.
 

LonelyBoy

EOS 7D MK II
Feb 18, 2015
745
0
Mikehit said:
douglaurent said:
Nice words, just none of you and the other ultra fanboys ever wrote that all those missing features and are good to have in future Canon cameras.
I have - several times. You are just unable to comprehend that we should. It passes you by every time because all you want to do is spout your own myopic view and you love the idea of being the pariah thinking outside the box. You are not.
And I and others are glad their sensors are finally greatly improving. In the meantime, though, I've been building up a stock of great lenses that will be even better when I get around to a 5D4. Or SL2. Or whatever.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,227
416
douglaurent said:
This means Sony already has an advantage of min. 5 years.
This Sony advantage of 5 years...I refer (again) to an item you posted about the 1Dx2. I presume you will not comment on it, but here goes anyway ?

But by adding a magnet viewfinder like in old 5D2 days, the 1DX2 is still a handable and can be used as one man show, with 2 outstanding advantages: 4K 60fps of course and the excellent video autofocus. If you use it right, there is no need for manual focus or focus peaking, and shooting can be done much faster than before and can be even more fun with even sharper shots.

Amazingly the video autofocus does work very good with all Canon lenses from the last years, and also selected ones like the Tamron 24-70/2.8 VC or 85/1.8 VC. Without any logical pattern, other Tamron or Sigma lenses don't do video focus at all. A Tamron 16-300 superzoom doesn't work although it has great stabilization paired with the 1DX2, a Sigma 18-300 does have video focus but weak stabilization. Crop lenses don't seem to vignette with the 1.3x 4K video crop of the camera.

The photo focus features and 16fps are also very nice for certain shooting situations, although the amount of MP is low when being used to a 5DsR, 645Z or A7R2. To me it is not an outstanding dynamic range monster and the quality difference to pics like from an RX100 IV is not huge enough.

What's missing is the whole amount of nice small E-mount lenses and stupidly no Canon crop lenses can be mounted, so a 1DX2 setup will require all the large and heavy Canon full frame lenses. At least they work great and are a pro photo option as well, so the cominations make it an excellen allround camera.

Strange is that 4K 25fps video can be recorded on fast CF cards and doesnt require the superexpensive CFAST cards like Canon says. In 4K 60fps mode, the CF cards do stop recording after app. 8 seconds.

All in all Canon needs to be quick to release mirrorless versions of their DSLR lineup. At photokina Sony will release the A9 that comes with all relevant DSLR features and of course the best of the A7 world - and if this A9 camera does have 4K 60fps, there is no need for a 1DX2 anymore (and certainly not a 5D4). :eek:
So it seems you prefer Canon after all...
 

sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,219
82
transpo1 said:
douglaurent said:
Apparently you can't seem to accept the objective reality that Canon is the most popular global brand for dSLRs. How sad.
In what way is the popularity of Canon relevant regarding the proven facts that their top products are behind in at least 20 important features? Is this a forum about technical features, or the forum of the Wall Street Journal or brand values?
I agree with you. Defence of Canon needs to come from strengths like service, reliability, glass etc NOT it being market king. That is a function of marketing and bandwagon etc.


It's always funny to me how anytime someone on this forum has the temerity to criticize Canon for not offering the reasonable features they want, the answer always seems to be "marketshare and sales." It's like there's a whole forum of marketing professionals not photographers and artists
[/quote]
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
sanj said:
transpo1 said:
douglaurent said:
Apparently you can't seem to accept the objective reality that Canon is the most popular global brand for dSLRs. How sad.
In what way is the popularity of Canon relevant regarding the proven facts that their top products are behind in at least 20 important features? Is this a forum about technical features, or the forum of the Wall Street Journal or brand values?
I agree with you. Defence of Canon needs to come from strengths like service, reliability, glass etc NOT it being market king. That is a function of marketing and bandwagon etc.


It's always funny to me how anytime someone on this forum has the temerity to criticize Canon for not offering the reasonable features they want, the answer always seems to be "marketshare and sales." It's like there's a whole forum of marketing professionals not photographers and artists
the exception is that the one user in question has 350 posts of nothing but canon whining.

it's also a counter that canon is "losing tons of business" to the likes of Sony Panasonic,etc .. well no they are not, and there is hard cold factual numbers to prove that. versus someone's bashing opinion.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
douglaurent said:
People who rent stuff. Years ago it was all 5D2, 5D3, C100, C300 etc - now the hot S___ are FS7, A7S2, GH5 etc etc
sure you do.

I still think all you have is a fischer price camera and live in your mom's basement. words mean nothing, and you have a distinct lack of understanding of alot of things.

your little video rental business if that's what it is assuming it even exists outside of the dusty corners of your head - is a water drop on the ocean of where canon sells it cameras.

Something just about everyone else comprehends that - but you.

I'm sure canon does look at social media quite a bit, however, this isn't a major forum, nor site in which canon would even care about monitoring.. so your "high road" of doing this so that canon can improve, is nothing but adolescence crying that a big corporation doesn't do what you want it to do.

grow up and move on .. you're nauseating.