"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" - Digglloyd

[Neutral]

Some interesting reading:

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150822_1402-SonyA7R_II-focus.html

"Something strange happened on my recent trip: I did not see any mis-focused images from the Sony A7R II. I mean, none.

Try doing that with a Nikon D810 or Canon 5DS R with an autofocus lens—I have and never come close, as past autofocus assessments show. And it’s hopeless to focus a lens manually using the optical viewfinder in a DSLR—the focusing screen is designed for autofocus and can’t show more than about f/2.8 - f/4 equivalent—massive slop—and it is a different optical path almost never the same distance as the sensor (inherent error even with perfect eyes). "

I tested earlier AF with Canon EF 85 F/1.2L II and have the similar results .
Always 100% in focus even at F1.2 and AF is fast.
Moreover , a7rII was able to autofocus with 85mm at F1.2 in extremely dim condition, could hardly see, without any AF assist light , though somewhat slower than in lighter environment.
And this test shot EXIF shows brightens value of minus 6.56.
This is really impressive and this is with 3d party lens, not native one.

Also something interesting on DXOMark
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A7R-II-versus-Canon-EOS-5DS-versus-Canon-EOS-1Dx___1035_1008_753
Sony a7r II Low light ISO is better than Canon 1Dx - 3434 ISO for a7RII vs 2786 on Canon 1Dx.
Just in the middle between 1Dx an a7s.

 

[privatebydesign]

Site hit searching hyperbole. I have seen numerous YouTube videos now that clearly illustrate quite different performance.

 

[Don Haines]

Re: "Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

Are you shooting mountain vistas or are you shooting bumblebees with a macro lens....

 

[Neutral]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used"- Digglloyd

Site hit searching hyperbole. I have seen numerous YouTube videos now that clearly illustrate quite different performance.

Since I got my own piece I do not care much about that videos , I trust people to which I really trust if I can not test myself but better trust my own experience.
May be that guys do not know how to use it in optimal way, also depends on lens and aperture.
This is the exactly the same as on 1DX - you need to set AF properties to what is required.
Set for AF accuracy and camera will shot when AF is 100% in focus.
Need speed - set for speed.
Need balanced - set for balanced.

a7rII AF with fast lenses is very accurate and very fast.
AF works perfectly with Canon 85F1.2LII, 24-70 F/2.8L II, 70-200 F/2.8L IS USM II.
I was really surprised, did not expect that with old Metabone III adapter.
With Canon 85F1.2LII and Zeiss 35 F1.4 focuses even in extremely dim conditions and what is more important - accurately.
Performance with Canon EF 24-70 F/2.8L II is beyond my expectations

 

[Neutral]

Also something interesting on DXOMark
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A7R-II-versus-Canon-EOS-5DS-versus-Canon-EOS-1Dx___1035_1008_753
Sony a7r II Low light ISO is better than Canon 1Dx - 3434 ISO for a7RII vs 2786 on Canon 1Dx.
Just in the middle between 1Dx an a7s.

In particular SNR vs. ISO graph is of particular interest for me.
Across all ISO range a7rII SNR is better at least one 1db compared to 1Dx but at ISO 51K it is better even by 3.1db - this is really significant.
This means that I can use a7rII with better SNR (better IQ) than 1Dx at high ISOs.

So now Canon has no more advantage over Sony at high ISOs even for high mpx universal Sony camera , let alone specialized a7S.
Hope they will be able to get ahead in this area again with 1DXm2.
But then let's wait for Sony response with a7s2 and possibly with a9.
Very interesting time now.

 

[Neutral]

Color Sensitivity graph is also very interesting.
Both SNR,DR and this graph shows that Sony does something starting from ISO 25K on a7r2 to improve very high ISO performance and make it more usable compared to competitors.

 

[bwud]

Re: "Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

Are you shooting mountain vistas or are you shooting bumblebees with a macro lens....

Exactly. I just rejected a bunch of A7R II photos, shot at f/2 28mm (not exactly razor thin DOF, but pretty narrow), for missed focus. Mountain vistas? a) hard to miss, and b) hard to say substantially afterwards exactly what you intended to focus on, thus making the claim that you didn't miss tenuous.



There aren't significantly more or fewer photos with eyelashes sharp rather than pupils than I'd expect from my 5D3. That is pretty impressive for on-sensor PDAF, however selecting the focus point is tedious given poorly-designed controls, so I missed more opportunities than I would have with for example the joystick on my 5D.

 

[bwud]

Color Sensitivity graph is also very interesting.
Both SNR,DR and this graph shows that Sony does something starting from ISO 25K on a7r2 to improve very high ISO performance and make it more usable compared to competitors.

I believe that's when they start dialing in a lot of spacial filtering. The really important shift is the one at 640, where the conversion gain evidently changes.

 

[Neutral]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

Are you shooting mountain vistas or are you shooting bumblebees with a macro lens....

Exactly. I just rejected a bunch of A7R II photos, shot at f/2 28mm (not exactly razor thin DOF, but pretty narrow), for missed focus. Mountain vistas? a) hard to miss, and b) hard to say substantially afterwards exactly what you intended to focus on, thus making the claim that you didn't miss tenuous.



There aren't significantly more or fewer photos with eyelashes sharp rather than pupils than I'd expect from my 5D3. That is pretty impressive for on-sensor PDAF, however selecting the focus point is tedious given poorly-designed controls, so I missed more opportunities than I would have with for example the joystick on my 5D.

??? however selecting the focus point is tedious given poorly-designed controls, ???
Sounds like you still in learning curve how to use a7rII in optimal way and do optimal customization for yourself.

All is so easy and simple - it is customizable to the very extreme level - in total 24 programmable positions !!! on this small body.
I never seen that in any other camera, including my 1Dx.
You need just to spend some time with a7rII settings - set it to what is convenient for you and you will see how many things would be much easier and faster to do.
Anything is just one or two clicks away.
You have the same joystick on a7rII as on your 5D - this is functional wheel with presses at right/left/top/bottom
Set bottom position to be "Focus Area" and you will have option to select focus area settings and focus block size with just one click of the thumb. Then use a7rII "joystick" to move this focus point to desired position or delete button to reset AF point to the center of the frame.
And all is just in fractions of second.
I find this much more convenient and more fast than on my 1DX

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Re: "Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy

Focus on the A7R II should be accurate, at least for still photos.

As for high ISO, its fine if you down sample it to 8mp. Might as well just buy a 8 mp camera though.

There is a very good article on DPR describing the low light autofocus and the issues as well as benefits which depend on the lens you use. Basically, you need to use a F2 or faster lens to get fast low light AF. For f/2.8 and slower, DSLR's may have a accuracy and speed advantage at least in low light.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6884391759/sony-alpha-7r-ii-can-match-or-beat-dslr-low-light-af-performance?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=features-default&utm_medium=homepage-block&ref=features-default


Unfortunately, DPR does not have their studio results yet available so that the cameras can be compared under different lighting and ISO's.

The jpeg images on imaging resource look pretty good though.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM
So, the situation is not clear cut, like all cameras, you need to know exactly how the AF works so you can get the most out of it. Unfortunately, you are not always able to use optimum settings, in which case, AF will suffer.

 

[Neutral]

Color Sensitivity graph is also very interesting.
Both SNR,DR and this graph shows that Sony does something starting from ISO 25K on a7r2 to improve very high ISO performance and make it more usable compared to competitors.

I believe that's when they start dialing in a lot of spacial filtering. The really important shift is the one at 640, where the conversion gain evidently changes.

I think your refer to this article ?
----------------
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11168

•The D810 has better base ISO read noise and EDR.
•The cameras are neck and neck at ISO 100.
•At ISO 640, the a7RII pulls ahead and stays ahead.
•The a7RII improvement at ISO 32000 and above is bogus, accomplished through in-camera spatial low-pass filtering.
------------------

 

[unfocused]

Obviously the author doesn't own a 7DII.

 

[Neutral]

Re: "Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy

Focus on the A7R II should be accurate, at least for still photos.

As for high ISO, its fine if you down sample it to 8mp. Might as well just buy a 8 mp camera though.

There is a very good article on DPR describing the low light autofocus and the issues as well as benefits which depend on the lens you use. Basically, you need to use a F2 or faster lens to get fast low light AF. For f/2.8 and slower, DSLR's may have a accuracy and speed advantage at least in low light.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6884391759/sony-alpha-7r-ii-can-match-or-beat-dslr-low-light-af-performance?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=features-default&utm_medium=homepage-block&ref=features-default

1. Exactly - as all AF data are provided directly from the sensor and sensor PDAF points.
But it is also important to set focus point to where is exactly required so proper AF mode/AF point selection is critical.
E.g. to focus on eye it is better to use eye AF - this works very well.
To make it easy to use (works almost instantly) the best way is to set AEL button for eye AF and use AF-C mode instead of AF-S.
Then A7rII tracks eye even when face is moving across the frame


2. When DPR published results of this test I did the same tests next day with Canon 85mm F1.2L II and native Zeiss 35 mm F1.4 and had the same results. This was nice surprise.
So I was mentioning this here (AF was functional for brightness level below -6) and in other posts earlier. This ability is basically function of light captured by sensor.
More light in dim conditions coming on sensor - means less noise , more accurate and fast AF.
The only problem with Canon lenses - eye AF is not possible and as well as continuous AF in video mode
Having said that also need to add that AF speed is different for different lenses - e.g. on new 90mm macro it is noticeable slower than on Zeiss 35mm F.1.4 or Sony 55mm F1.8

So far I am pleased with a7rII. Of course it has it's weak points , there is nothing 100% perfect in our world, but in general set of features is very well balanced.

 

[Neutral]

Obviously the author doesn't own a 7DII.

Does 7DII has better and more accurate AF than Nikon D810 or Canon 5DS R which he is using and with which he is comparing ???

Very interesting, if so then many users of Nikon D810 or Canon 5DS R cameras should consider using 7DII instead.

This guy is using many different bodies and he is one of the trusted testers/ reviewers/publishes and even manufactures are listening to his technical comments or complains.
In fact he has a lot of criticism for some aspects a7RII. He tells his practical experience.

 

[unfocused]

Obviously the author doesn't own a 7DII.

Does 7DII has better and more accurate AF than Nikon D810 or Canon 5DS R which he is using and with which he is comparing ???

Yes, it does. The 7DII autofocus is very close to the Canon 1DX and Nikon D4S.

Very interesting, if so then many users of Nikon D810 or Canon 5DS R cameras should consider using 7DII instead.

No. Intelligent buyers of the D810 and 5DS R are buying high resolution full frame quality. While they may be very serviceable for sports or wildlife, that is not their primary function.

Buy the 7DII if you need accurate autofocus at 10 frames/second and cannot afford the flagship Canon or Nikon. Buy the 5DS if you want to print large, crop heavily or need very high resolution.

 

[bwud]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

Are you shooting mountain vistas or are you shooting bumblebees with a macro lens....

Exactly. I just rejected a bunch of A7R II photos, shot at f/2 28mm (not exactly razor thin DOF, but pretty narrow), for missed focus. Mountain vistas? a) hard to miss, and b) hard to say substantially afterwards exactly what you intended to focus on, thus making the claim that you didn't miss tenuous.



There aren't significantly more or fewer photos with eyelashes sharp rather than pupils than I'd expect from my 5D3. That is pretty impressive for on-sensor PDAF, however selecting the focus point is tedious given poorly-designed controls, so I missed more opportunities than I would have with for example the joystick on my 5D.

??? however selecting the focus point is tedious given poorly-designed controls, ???
Sounds like you still in learning curve how to use a7rII in optimal way

Of that I have no doubt. I get better with it every day.

and do optimal customization for yourself.

I have it fairly customized. **

All is so easy and simple - it is customizable to the very extreme level - in total 24 programmable positions !!! on this small body.
I never seen that in any other camera, including my 1Dx.
You need just to spend some time with a7rII settings - set it to what is convenient for you and you will see how many things would be much easier and faster to do.
Anything is just one or two clicks away.
You have the same joystick on a7rII as on your 5D - this is functional wheel with presses at right/left/top/bottom
Set bottom position to be "Focus Area" and you will have option to select focus area settings and focus block size with just one click of the thumb. Then use a7rII "joystick" to move this focus point to desired position or delete button to reset AF point to the center of the frame.
And all is just in fractions of second.
I find this much more convenient and more fast than on my 1DX

My problem isn't getting to AF point selection mode. I have down set to Focus Settings, so I just have to double-tap it to get into point selection mode. My problem is actually selecting the point.

The root of the problem, I think, is that the wheel does other things, and is very apt to jump into a different mode while I'm trying to move the point around. I can't just mash it with abandon trying to get it where I want in the face of a moving subject.

I went so far as to disable the left and right buttons, which helped some, but I still have to be very diligent when I go from scrolling horizontally to scrolling vertically. My natural tendency is to not entirely lift my thumb when going from left/right to up/down, which causes me to inadvertently roll the wheel, which kicks me out of point selection.

**
I have:
Left Button - Not Set
Right Button - Not Set
Down Button - Focus Settings
AEL Button - Deactivate Monitor
AF/MF Button - Eye AF
Focus Hold Button - Focus Hold - and I'll admit that I have no clue where the focus hold button is.
Control Wheel - Aperture
Custom 1 - Focus Magnifier
Custom 2 - Metering Mode
Custom 3 - ISO
Custom 4 - Focus Area
Center Button - AF On

This lets me do basically anything I'm likely to do without moving my fingers far from the exposure, focus, and shutter release.

It irks me that I can't go into manual focus (with native glass) without actually enabling manual mode. It also irks me that I have to enable manual mode with any type of glass to allow focus magnify.

Because I had to kill a custom button on ISO after removing it from right, I had to put Focus Mode in the Fn menu. It's a bit annoying but not the end of the world. Too bad I can't use the movie button for anything.

I think your refer to this article ?
----------------
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11168

Well, I wasn't referring to a comparison with the D810, but yes, I'm basing it on Jim's data and his discussion about it on DPreview. He shows an increase in DR at 640 (most-likely due to DR-Pix conversion gain).

 

[sdsr]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

It irks me that I can't go into manual focus (with native glass) without actually enabling manual mode. It also irks me that I have to enable manual mode with any type of glass to allow focus magnify.

I share some of your complaints (I too have disabled the other functions on the wheel buttons ever since buying my first a7 series camera 18 months ago), including the comment in the first sentence above about manual focus and native glass. But you're wrong in the second sentence - I set the center button on the dial to focus magnify and whenever I attach a manual lens (or a Canon AF lens switched to MF) that's all I need to press (once to bring up the magnification-area box, once more to magnify it (and again to magnify further, though I seldom do)) ; I only change the camera to MF mode when I attach a native lens. (The same is true for the other a7 bodies and the a6000.)

 

[bwud]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

It irks me that I can't go into manual focus (with native glass) without actually enabling manual mode. It also irks me that I have to enable manual mode with any type of glass to allow focus magnify.

I share some of your complaints (I too have disabled the other functions on the wheel buttons ever since buying my first a7 series camera 18 months ago), including the comment in the first sentence above about manual focus and native glass. But you're wrong in the second sentence - I set the center button on the dial to focus magnify and whenever I attach a manual lens (or a Canon AF lens switched to MF) that's all I need to press (once to bring up the magnification-area box, once more to magnify it (and again to magnify further, though I seldom do)) ; I only change the camera to MF mode when I attach a native lens. (The same is true for the other a7 bodies and the a6000.)

Yes, that (bolded in the quote of your post) is the rub. The lens has to be set to MF. Unless something somewhere is telling the camera that you want MF, magnify doesn't work. It seems rather silly. Hit the button, zoom the screen. What possible reason is there to require the camera to be in manual focus mode to zoom the viewfinder? I usually shoot AF (landscapes aside), and one of the major advantages to decoupling AF from the shutter release is the ability to override AF when it isn't working by merely turning the focus ring. Requiring a setting toggle, be it in the menu or on the lens, diminishes that advantage. One shouldn't need to inform the camera of one's intentions to focus manually.


Edit: and I'm glad I'm not the only one who disabled buttons on the control wheel. I thought maybe I was being rash

 

[Neutral]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

My problem isn't getting to AF point selection mode. I have down set to Focus Settings, so I just have to double-tap it to get into point selection mode. My problem is actually selecting the point.

The root of the problem, I think, is that the wheel does other things, and is very apt to jump into a different mode while I'm trying to move the point around. I can't just mash it with abandon trying to get it where I want in the face of a moving subject.

I went so far as to disable the left and right buttons, which helped some, but I still have to be very diligent when I go from scrolling horizontally to scrolling vertically. My natural tendency is to not entirely lift my thumb when going from left/right to up/down, which causes me to inadvertently roll the wheel, which kicks me out of point selection.

**
I have:
Left Button - Not Set
Right Button - Not Set
Down Button - Focus Settings
AEL Button - Deactivate Monitor
AF/MF Button - Eye AF
Focus Hold Button - Focus Hold - and I'll admit that I have no clue where the focus hold button is.
Control Wheel - Aperture
Custom 1 - Focus Magnifier
Custom 2 - Metering Mode
Custom 3 - ISO
Custom 4 - Focus Area
Center Button - AF On

This lets me do basically anything I'm likely to do without moving my fingers far from the exposure, focus, and shutter release.

It irks me that I can't go into manual focus (with native glass) without actually enabling manual mode. It also irks me that I have to enable manual mode with any type of glass to allow focus magnify.

Because I had to kill a custom button on ISO after removing it from right, I had to put Focus Mode in the Fn menu. It's a bit annoying but not the end of the world. Too bad I can't use the movie button for anything.

I use all that differently in a way which is most convenient for me.
No assignments for functional wheel at top functional level to prevent accidental changes of anything.
At lower functional level it changes its functionality depending where you are at the settings changes.
May be sharing my experience and settings could be used for someone else as well.
--------------
“It irks me that I can't go into manual focus (with native glass) without actually enabling manual mode”
Probably you did not find that, you could do that.
You have the same AF override in a7rII (also in older a7r and a7s) with native lenses as on Canon bodies.
You can switch that AF Manual override mode ON or OFF in AF mode settings.
This is called DMF mode, selectable via AF mode settings
You can do AF and then switch to Manual Focus by starting to focus manually.
Unfortunately, his works only for native lenses, for 3d party lenses you need to toggle manually.
This is not a Sony body problem – this is adapter problem, it does not pass all the information from lenses to the Sony body.
May be Metabone fix that with FW update or will start making new adapter.
---------------
There is difference in operations between “Focus Area” and “Focus Settings” functions though both are used to get the same result.
I tried “Focus Settings” initially but then change that to “Focus Area” for the same reason you mentioned in your reply.
Difference between them is that for “Focus Settings” you need to rotate functional wheel to select what is required and then press center button and then you could start moving AF point. Not convenient and easy to change something else.
When you use “Focus Area” you get focus parameters on the left of the screen and select them using joystick.
I find that easier and more convenient, so I set down button to be “Focus Area” and center button for “Focus Magnifier”.
After that, I do not use “Focus Settings” function at all as all done via “Focus Area”
Just press “Focus Area” then select focus settings and then press center button to move it around the frame.
--------------
Very useful functions is “Lock-on AF” which you can use in AF-C mode and as “Lock-on Center AF” in AF-S mode.
No need to move focus point manually, focus initially and after focus lock on the subject recompose the frame and a7rII will keep the focus where it was initially set.
I find that very convenient.
---------------
To be able to see if I am in AF mode or manual I switched ON PDAF focus areas borders and CDAF area borders.
Therefore, they are visible in AF mode and off in manual mode.
This works as AF mode indicator for me.
Also I use focus peaking – it is engaged in manual focus mode so this is additional indicator that I am in manual focus mode.
----------
For switching between AF and MF when using Canon Lenses I use C4 button set up as AF/MF toggle.
Pressing C4 and then the Center Button for “Focus Magnifier” and use joystick (up/down/left/right) to move focus area around.
When focus area in required position press again “Focus Magnifier” to increase magnification and continue to adjust smaller focus block position or finish focusing.
In addition, all that just using single clicks of the thumb (just one free finger is used for that)
-----------------------
Attached is snapshot of my custom settings for a7rII.
I did common setup for common functions in still and movie modes so that I could get anything that I need instantly within one or two clicks.
Front and rear dials are with default settings - aperture and shutter speed.
No need to move aperture to functional wheel.
Some of the buttons could be changed occasionally so I created for myself small table with the current settings in order to be able to quickly roll back, otherwise it is very difficult to remember what was where.

Regarding “Focus Hold” button:
There is no such button on a7 body.
This is button on some of the native lenses – 90mm macro, 70-200mm and some others.

Though this does not bother me I also wish that default movie button could be customizable, hopefully with the next FW release this might be fixed, Sony team are aware of this requirements.

What is real irritation is that it is not possible to assign toggle function between APC-C/Super 35mm to Full Frame to any custom buttons to switch over with the single click.
Instead, need to do that via menu.
This is very annoying. I believe this also might be fixed in the FW update, Sony is also aware of this problem for customers.

 

[Neutral]

Some notes on DMF mode (Manual Focus Override Mode):

It works as follows:
1. Half-press of shutter button invokes AF on selected AF area
2. Then when object is in focus (or even before that) you can start rotate manual focus ring on the lens.
3. At this point (manual focus ring movement) camera will immediately switch to Manual Focus mode, turn on focus magnification and user could continue with manual focus adjustments.
If Focus peaking enabled user will have that as well and could use that for precise focus.

In Manual Focus override mode Current Focus area is shown at the left bottom corner as PIP window, user can move it using joystick or magnify it more using Focus magnifier button (center button in my settings). And this is just single click of the thumb.
Just remember to to keep release button half pressed (manual focus hold involved) otherwise camera will return into AF mode.

Also it should be clear that focus magnification works only when manual focus is engaged , otherwise if in AF mode camera will tell that function is not supported in AF mode.
This is normal , it would be very strange if focus magnification could be involved in AF mode.