"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" - Digglloyd

[3kramd5]

This thread has turned very educational. Thanks all!

 

[sdsr]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

Edit: and I'm glad I'm not the only one who disabled buttons on the control wheel. I thought maybe I was being rash

I struggled for the first month or so thinking I would get used to it, but I got tired of swearing/yelling at the camera every time I tried moving the focus point and instead brought up the iso controls etc., which seemed to happen with no decreasing frequency. Moving it around still seems slow, though, as you say, but perhaps that's inevitable given that the the area is bigger, and the number of focus points far higher, than on any dslr. Another reason why I prefer mf, which often seems faster....

 

[bwud]

“It irks me that I can't go into manual focus (with native glass) without actually enabling manual mode”
Probably you did not find that, you could do that.
You have the same AF override in a7rII (also in older a7r and a7s) with native lenses as on Canon bodies.
You can switch that AF Manual override mode ON or OFF in AF mode settings.
This is called DMF mode, selectable via AF mode settings
You can do AF and then switch to Manual Focus by starting to focus manually.

Thanks, I didn't know about that. I just tried it. It isn't quite the same as on Canon bodies in that you have to lock autofocus first and keep the AF activated while adjusting manually. Still, it's better than going in and activating MF.
(edit: just saw your followup post to that effect)

There is difference in operations between “Focus Area” and “Focus Settings” functions though both are used to get the same result.
I tried “Focus Settings” initially but then change that to “Focus Area” for the same reason you mentioned in your reply.
Difference between them is that for “Focus Settings” you need to rotate functional wheel to select what is required and then press center button and then you could start moving AF point. Not convenient and easy to change something else.
When you use “Focus Area” you get focus parameters on the left of the screen and select them using joystick.
I find that easier and more convenient, so I set down button to be “Focus Area” and center button for “Focus Magnifier”.
After that, I do not use “Focus Settings” function at all as all done via “Focus Area”

Oh, you're right, it is much better when accessed via Focus Area.

Very useful functions is “Lock-on AF” which you can use in AF-C mode and as “Lock-on Center AF” in AF-S mode.
No need to move focus point manually, focus initially and after focus lock on the subject recompose the frame and a7rII will keep the focus where it was initially set.
I find that very convenient.

Yes, and now that I've put Focus Area on Down, I'm experimenting with Center Lock-on AF". I'm a bit confused, though. I can not find "Lock-on AF." The help guide suggests it can be enabled via the menus, but the only thing I have is Center Lock-on AF." However, Center Lock-on AF doesn't appear in the help guide.

It seems to do a good job drawing a box around what was initially in the center, but it doesn't do a particularly good job of keeping it in focus

I'll have to play with it more.

Also I use focus peaking – it is engaged in manual focus mode so this is additional indicator that I am in manual focus mode.

Do you find peeking to be reliable? I can shoot something wide open at near MFD, and it will highlight high-contrast things which are WAY out of focus.

No need to move aperture to functional wheel.

I think that comes down to comfort. I like my exposure controls to be where my fingers and thumb naturally like to sit. I find it extremely uncomfortable holding the camera with my thumb up near the rear wheel (the default shutter speed one). I have a hard time even rotating it because it's recessed so far behind that bevel. Reaching the functional wheel is much easier and lends itself to how I hold the camera. I moved shutter speed to the front wheel.

Some of the buttons could be changed occasionally so I created for myself small table with the current settings in order to be able to quickly roll back, otherwise it is very difficult to remember what was where.

Thanks for sharing your table. I'm going to print it and use it as a reference. I have a bunch of photos of the settings I've selected on my phone. This is a much better way to document.

Regarding “Focus Hold” button:
There is no such button on a7 body.
This is button on some of the native lenses – 90mm macro, 70-200mm and some others.

a'ha. No wonder


Thanks for your tips, they've been very helpful. I'll keep playing around.

 

[bwud]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

Edit: and I'm glad I'm not the only one who disabled buttons on the control wheel. I thought maybe I was being rash

I struggled for the first month or so thinking I would get used to it, but I got tired of swearing/yelling at the camera every time I tried moving the focus point and instead brought up the iso controls etc., which seemed to happen with no decreasing frequency. Moving it around still seems slow, though, as you say, but perhaps that's inevitable given that the the area is bigger, and the number of focus points far higher, than on any dslr. Another reason why I prefer mf, which often seems faster....

See Neutral's suggestion about using Focus Area. You have to select the setting (eg flexible spot) first, but then the point selection screen is all you see, and it doesn't jump off. Even rolling the wheel doesn't kick you out - it just changes the spot size.

 

[Neutral]

Thanks, I didn't know about that. I just tried it. It isn't quite the same as on Canon bodies in that you have to lock autofocus first and keep the AF activated while adjusting manually. Still, it's better than going in and activating MF.
(edit: just saw your followup post to that effect)

Forgot to mention a couple of things here:
1. MF Assist should be turned ON to force camera to go into magnification mode when MF is invoked.
2. I set Focus Magnification Time to no limit- to allow me to use magnification as long as I need.
Both are under Custom Settings , page 1.

 

[sdsr]

Also it should be clear that focus magnification works only when manual focus is engaged , otherwise if in AF mode camera will tell that function is not supported in AF mode.
This is normal , it would be very strange if focus magnification could be involved in AF mode.

Strange, perhaps, but I've discovered a context where it could perhaps be useful. I have AF set to single flexible spot, smallest size. When I use a native lens and the camera thinks it's in focus, the edges of the little box turns green. But when I attach a Canon lens that works well in PDAF mode on the a7rII the camera often finds several tiny boxes within the regular small box - when there's a lot of fine detail at slightly different focal distances in the flexible spot area, one or two or more little boxes will light up inside it, seeming to provide me with yet more precision. But the area involved is so small I can seldom see just what the choice is; magnification would help there. I have never seen these mini boxes with native lenses (perhaps they only show up for those in AF modes I don't use?). Presumably others have noticed this too.

(I can confirm, should anyone care, that the EF 28mm IS works extremely well in PDAF mode on an a7rII via Metabones III, at least outdoors in daylight; better than the EF 40mm pancake which I was testing at the same time - it sometimes went into crazy hunt mode, including (weirdly, I thought) when I tried to get it to focus on a white skyscraper with the sun shining directly at it, the windows effectively creating a sort of black-and-white checkerboard with lots of contrast.)

 

[Neutral]

Very useful functions is “Lock-on AF” which you can use in AF-C mode and as “Lock-on Center AF” in AF-S mode.
No need to move focus point manually, focus initially and after focus lock on the subject recompose the frame and a7rII will keep the focus where it was initially set.
I find that very convenient.

Yes, and now that I've put Focus Area on Down, I'm experimenting with Center Lock-on AF". I'm a bit confused, though. I can not find "Lock-on AF." The help guide suggests it can be enabled via the menus, but the only thing I have is Center Lock-on AF." However, Center Lock-on AF doesn't appear in the help guide.

It seems to do a good job drawing a box around what was initially in the center, but it doesn't do a particularly good job of keeping it in focus

I'll have to play with it more.

I explained that day or two ago in the other thread - please see below.
"Center Lock-On AF" is used to engage AF tracking when camera is in single shot AF-S mode
"Lock-on AF" options are available when AF mode set to AF-C (continuous AF).
When AF mode is AF-C then user can see additional AF settings when pressing "Focus Area" - just after Expand Flexible Spot AF.
These include the following "Lock-on AF" options:
Wide, Zone, Center, Flexible Spot S, M, L or Expand Flexible Spot .
When focus is locked then focus track box is following object across the frame.
Could be very useful in many cases.

...
Couldn't figure how to use AF tracking properly yet. I prefer to pick a target and allow the camera to track it. At this moment, it doesn't seem a7rii has that feature. Again, I'm still in the discovery land.
....

A7r2 has this, a7s also.
There are number of options under "Lock-on AF".
Select AF-C operations mode, then under "Focus Area" select any of the lock-on AF options and that's it. There are flexible spot lock-on AF options, select size of the AF point , if required move it where you want and when you half press release button camera focuses on this point, lock on the object, adjust lock area and then track object across entire frame.
It worked very well on an a7s but on a7r2 it is much much faster.
It was very difficult to do the same on1dx.
Also there is option called "Center Lock-On AF" which you could engage in single shot AF-S mode. It starts track object from center of the frame and when release button is half pressed focus is locked on object position at this time. It works very well though as you see from above description it is a bit different than the same in AF-C mode.
With right setup of functional buttons all that is just one or two buttons clicks away.
Very convenient.
Tested also both AF modes with Canon 85mm F/1.2L II, 24-70mm F/2.8L II, 70-200mm F/2.8L II, all is very fast and using PDAF. All focusing instantly and 100% accurately and 85mm even in very low light when wide open. But tracks objects well only within PDAF points area which actually not bad. The problem with 85mm though that all imperfections when wide open are very noticeable on 42mpx a7r2. For 12mpx a7s it was not an issue.
Possibly I will replace it with Batis 85mm.
Also eye AF is not supported on Canon lenses.
On a7r2 with native lenses this works like magic - instantly and accurately
Sorry for any typing errors if any, very difficult to type from small tablet, much easier to type on normal PC

 

[bwud]

Ah, so it's not something you can map to a custom key (like center lock). That's too bad.

It's odd if center lock only works in AF-S, since while in AF-C it doesn't pop up an error screen (which it does routinely when you do something wrong, like try to focus magnify while AF is active), and draws boxes around the tracked object. I guess it tracks the object location but doesn't actually focus on it.

Thanks, I didn't know about that. I just tried it. It isn't quite the same as on Canon bodies in that you have to lock autofocus first and keep the AF activated while adjusting manually. Still, it's better than going in and activating MF.
(edit: just saw your followup post to that effect)

Forgot to mention a couple of things here:
1. MF Assist should be turned ON to force camera to go into magnification mode when MF is invoked.
2. I set Focus Magnification Time to no limit- to allow me to use magnification as long as I need.
Both are under Custom Settings , page 1.

I am not a fan of automatic zoom, so I have AF assist off.

 

[Neutral]

Also I use focus peaking – it is engaged in manual focus mode so this is additional indicator that I am in manual focus mode.

Do you find peeking to be reliable? I can shoot something wide open at near MFD, and it will highlight high-contrast things which are WAY out of focus.

I use it only for general reference, definitely it could not be always reliable as it is based on highlighting sharp edges without knowing where is the focus exactly. So I prefer to pre-focus using first magnification step and then go to the maximum magnification and complete it using my eyes.
Found also that latest 5-inch Sony Clip-on HD LCD HDMI monitor CLM-FHD5 (which I bought for manual focus in video) is very useful and helpful for Manual Focus assist in still mode as my eyes are not sharp for using LCD monitor on the camera.
This is of smartphone size with many useful functions and very light.
Also it works perfectly well on Canon 1DX

 

[Neutral]

(I can confirm, should anyone care, that the EF 28mm IS works extremely well in PDAF mode on an a7rII via Metabones III, at least outdoors in daylight; better than the EF 40mm pancake which I was testing at the same time - it sometimes went into crazy hunt mode, including (weirdly, I thought) when I tried to get it to focus on a white skyscraper with the sun shining directly at it, the windows effectively creating a sort of black-and-white checkerboard with lots of contrast.)

Tested Canon 85mm F/1.2L II, 24-70mm F/2.8L II, 70-200mm F/2.8L II and all work perfectly well using PDAF on a7rII via Metabones III. And 24-70mm F/2.8L II is just exceptionally well - this is now my primary zoom on a7rII.

 

[sdsr]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

Edit: and I'm glad I'm not the only one who disabled buttons on the control wheel. I thought maybe I was being rash

I struggled for the first month or so thinking I would get used to it, but I got tired of swearing/yelling at the camera every time I tried moving the focus point and instead brought up the iso controls etc., which seemed to happen with no decreasing frequency. Moving it around still seems slow, though, as you say, but perhaps that's inevitable given that the the area is bigger, and the number of focus points far higher, than on any dslr. Another reason why I prefer mf, which often seems faster....

See Neutral's suggestion about using Focus Area. You have to select the setting (eg flexible spot) first, but then the point selection screen is all you see, and it doesn't jump off. Even rolling the wheel doesn't kick you out - it just changes the spot size.

Yes, I've already been doing that, but it still seems slower than, say, 5DIII - but this is pretty trivial whining on my part, I know. It really doesn't matter much (especially since I usually do MF anyway).

As for focus peaking, like others I don't think it's of much use by itself except at very close range, where my success rate is pretty high (shortly after I bought my a7r I spent a few hours at Longwood Gardens with the Canon 100L attached to it using nothing but focus peaking and was pleasantly surprised by the results). Combine it with magnification and my success rate, at any focal length, is as close to 100% as I ever hope to get (higher than I've ever achieved with AF on any brand of camera). I've read that some other company has more reliable focus peaking, though given how it works I'm not sure why it should vary from brand to brand (it may have been Olympus, but I can't check because my OM-D EM5 doesn't have it). Of course, the author may have been full of it....

 

[jaayres20]

Wow 100% keeper rate and better than DSLRs! I assume I will start seeing these superior focusing cameras on the sidelines of my favorite sporting events this fall.

 

[3kramd5]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

Very useful functions is “Lock-on AF” which you can use in AF-C mode and as “Lock-on Center AF” in AF-S mode.
No need to move focus point manually, focus initially and after focus lock on the subject recompose the frame and a7rII will keep the focus where it was initially set.
I find that very convenient.

I tried using lock-on AF today with my son at the zoo. It seemed more miss than hit. It works well enough (wouldn't rely on it for critical focus on eyes, for example) when he takes up a sizable portion of the AF boundaries, but when he's further away it just draws green boxes all over him and focus is kinda-sorta-whateverish. Don't get me wrong - I'm not expecting miracles, I just don't think I have much use for it.

 

[RobPan]

Hi Neutral, thank you for all the information you gave on the A7RII.
As my 5D3 was stolen some time ago, I am looking for a replacement. According to rumors the 5D4 will feature extremely high ISO up to 204,800, which would be very welcome for me. But if there is still no announcement before the beginning of November, my choice will be the A7RII.
I have some Canon lenses which I will want to use on this Sony body. As the A7RII body does have built in IS, will it be better to switch off the Canon IS (in the lens)? I suppose IS in the body will not go well with on lens IS at the same time. Is this correct?
A second question: can one have BF (back focus) on the A7RII? I had it on the 5D3 and I loved it.

Kind regards,

Rob

 

[3kramd5]

As the A7RII body does have built in IS, will it be better to switch off the Canon IS (in the lens)? I suppose IS in the body will not go well with on lens IS at the same time. Is this correct?

Enable it on the lens; in body IS is disabled when you attach a stabilized lens.

A second question: can one have BF (back focus) on the A7RII? I had it on the 5D3 and I loved it.

I assume you mean back button autofocus. I'd be mad if I had back focus

The answer is yes: you can decouple AF-on from the shutter release and map it to a number of different buttons.

 

[RobPan]

As the A7RII body does have built in IS, will it be better to switch off the Canon IS (in the lens)? I suppose IS in the body will not go well with on lens IS at the same time. Is this correct?

Enable it on the lens; in body IS is disabled when you attach a stabilized lens.

A second question: can one have BF (back focus) on the A7RII? I had it on the 5D3 and I loved it.

I assume you mean back button autofocus. I'd be mad if I had back focus

The answer is yes: you can decouple AF-on from the shutter release and map it to a number of different buttons.

Thanks for your answers! From now on I will be having back mutton autofocus. BTW I am still wondering about the poor thief of my 5D3 who does not know about BF and never gets focused pictures. How will he sell that useless camera? Regards, Rob.

 

[Neutral]

Re:"Sony A7R II: Focus Accuracy Better than Any DSLR I’ve Ever Used" -

Very useful functions is “Lock-on AF” which you can use in AF-C mode and as “Lock-on Center AF” in AF-S mode.
No need to move focus point manually, focus initially and after focus lock on the subject recompose the frame and a7rII will keep the focus where it was initially set.
I find that very convenient.

I tried using lock-on AF today with my son at the zoo. It seemed more miss than hit. It works well enough (wouldn't rely on it for critical focus on eyes, for example) when he takes up a sizable portion of the AF boundaries, but when he's further away it just draws green boxes all over him and focus is kinda-sorta-whateverish. Don't get me wrong - I'm not expecting miracles, I just don't think I have much use for it.

I think this is normal and could be happening.

First, I think that “Lock-on AF” primary mode of operation is to track moving objects within the frame when camera is not moving itself - so trajectory of the tracked object is predictable and could extrapolated ahead.

I tried it in just opposite mode – track still object while moving camera itself – by symmetry principle applied to many things it should work and it was actually working for me.

Though in doing so couple of things need to be considered:
1. Image stabilization should be turned off , otherwise it could be interfering with AF when camera being moved and image could be smeared.
2. Do not move object out of PDAF area where AF is fast, when object is out of PDAF in CDAF area focus speed will be significantly slower and might be not fast enough to follow object move within fame (when moving camera to do frame re-composition).
3. When using this non-standard mode it is better to use sharper and faster lenses, they should work better (I will test this later when have time).
4. After recomposing frame while keeping object in focus lock it might be required to give a little bit of time at final position to allow to camera to better re-focus on the object

I will do some more tests on this later to research this a bit more.

 

[Neutral]

A second question: can one have BF (back focus) on the A7RII? I had it on the 5D3 and I loved it.

I assume you mean back button autofocus. I'd be mad if I had back focus

The answer is yes: you can decouple AF-on from the shutter release and map it to a number of different buttons.

Yes, this is function named "AF-on" which could be assigned to any programmable button/position.
And AF with half press of shutter release button still will be functional.

 

[Neutral]

As the A7RII body does have built in IS, will it be better to switch off the Canon IS (in the lens)? I suppose IS in the body will not go well with on lens IS at the same time. Is this correct?

Enable it on the lens; in body IS is disabled when you attach a stabilized lens.

Yes I also think that it is better to use lens IS when using Canon lens but need to consider following:
A7rII does not know about IS on Canon lens, information about Canon lens IS not relayed to the a7rII by adapter - I use Metabones III one.
Even if this information could be passed result could be very bad.
A7rII IBIS is not designed to work together with the Canon lens IS.
For Sony native lenses body IBIS work together with lens IS.

So to use Canon lens IS it is required to turn off body IBIS, Canon lens IS will stay on as lens does not know about body IBIS.
Without switching IBIS off it and Canon lens IS will interfere with each other as they do not know about each other and result would be smeared image.
This is one of the reasons I have all OSS settings in functional menu - to make it easy to do required settings when Canon lens attached.
I tested Canon EF 70-200mm F/2.8L IS USM II image stabilization - get sharp images when ISO Auto Min. SS is set to slowest.
For 200mm it gets SS=1/50s .
This means about 3 stops of IS , as for a7rII 42mbpx for sharp HH image one need to have shutter speed in non IS mode around 1/(2*F).
I assigned "ISO Auto Min. SS" to the first functional position in the functional menu set to get quick access to it.

 

[3kramd5]

As the A7RII body does have built in IS, will it be better to switch off the Canon IS (in the lens)? I suppose IS in the body will not go well with on lens IS at the same time. Is this correct?

Enable it on the lens; in body IS is disabled when you attach a stabilized lens.

Yes I also think that it is better to use lens IS when using Canon lens but need to consider following:
A7rII does not know about IS on Canon lens, information about Canon lens IS not relayed to the a7rII by adapter - I use Metabones III one.

I use the Metabones IV, which does pass IS information to the body. When I put on an IS lens, if I try to enable Steady Shot, it says no and tells me to enable it on the lens.