600ex-rt vs PocketWizard Flex TT5 Setup

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Hey everyone, I'm sure this question has been asked a million times before, but I couldn't find anything specific too my scenario. I'm looking for someone that has extensive experience with both Canon's 600EX-RT and PocketWizard's Flex TT1/TT5/AC3. PW's system is unreliable at best in my experience, with the AC3 failing to control zones properly at times. I shoot primarily weddings, engagements, and couples.

Here's my current setup.
Canon 5D Mark III
Canon 7D
Canon 580 EX II
2x Canon 480 EX II (I mainly use these as the range is much longer due to no interference)
3x PocketWizard Flex TT5
PocketWizard AC3 Zone Controller

I'm looking into selling all the flashes/PocketWizards on ebay (I should get between $1100-1200 for everything) and replacing them with 3 Canon 600 EX-RTs or 2 600 EX-RTs and ST-E3-RT. What is everyone's recommendations? How are the Canon's to work with as far as convenience, control, and reliability go? I would like to get rid of the 430 EX IIs so I have a more powerful flash, but I can't use all 580EX II's due to the RF interference. Thoughts? Thanks in advance.
 
Jan 29, 2011
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The Canon RT system is a dream to work with. I have three 600's and an ST-E3-RT and they just work, every time, perfectly.

In your situation, having used the RT system for a while now (and having played with and been completely unimpressed with the Flex) I wouldn't hesitate, sell it all and get the RT. The 600 is $499 at the moment too so it is an excellent time to buy them.
 
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eml58

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Agree Neuro & privatebydesign, I have a pair of 600EX RT with the ST-E3 and I'm a Boob when it comes to Flash (found the PW and my 580EX units a mission to Mars every time I used them), the 600EX/ST-E3 set up just works, simple (fortunately for me) straight forward, and the 600EX RT units zoom to 200mm which is great for my Wildlife stuff with the 200f/2 & 300f/2.8 V2 Lenses, I use the RRS Ring Bracket set up, cant beat it, but having said all that, remember I class myself as a learner in this area of Flash Photography.
 
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I use multiple 580EXII, a 580EX, and 550 flashes on flexTT5 all controlled with a miniTT1/AC3. I have not have the problems some seem to have. I do not use the socks or the hard shells.

Something that I was taught seems to make the system more reliable:
1. turn everything off
2. turn on a flash, then its FlexTT5 to the proper channel
3. Repeat step 2 for each flash. Flash first, FlexTT5 second.
4. Then turn on your mini TT1
5. now, turn on your camera.

Easy way to remember: Turn things on, top to bottom.

Since some of my flashes are hidden inside a softbox, the radio trigger is required. Once I started practicing the top-to-bottom method, I've not used the socks or hard shells.
 
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neuroanatomist said:
I have both the PW system and an ST-E3-RT with three 600EX-RT flashes. I use the PW setup with a PowerMC2 for an Einstein monolight. If I'm not using the monolight, the PWs stay in the case and I use the ST-E3-RT.

Since you don't list a monolight among your assets, I'd go Canon RT.

Thanks for the response. I don't currently have any monolights, though I may pick up an Einstein or two for studio/formal portrait work at weddings. So that does worry me a bit, but I also feel like I need something more reliable for weddings that the 580/430/PW setup I have now. Sounds like the 600 EX-RT fits the bill. If I do get an Einstein, is it possible to use the 600EX-RT's together with the PW system? IE: Flex on the camera, 600EX on the flex, 600EX triggering other 600EX's, and the PW triggering the Einstein?

photo212 said:
I use multiple 580EXII, a 580EX, and 550 flashes on flexTT5 all controlled with a miniTT1/AC3. I have not have the problems some seem to have. I do not use the socks or the hard shells.

Something that I was taught seems to make the system more reliable:
1. turn everything off
2. turn on a flash, then its FlexTT5 to the proper channel
3. Repeat step 2 for each flash. Flash first, FlexTT5 second.
4. Then turn on your mini TT1
5. now, turn on your camera.

Easy way to remember: Turn things on, top to bottom.

Since some of my flashes are hidden inside a softbox, the radio trigger is required. Once I started practicing the top-to-bottom method, I've not used the socks or hard shells.

Been there, done all of that, and then some. Tried a million different tweaks. There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason for when my AC3 decides to stop controlling things properly. And I have no idea how your 580EX II works without a sock/filter, I get about 10 feet max off of mine unless I use them (Which is why I purchased the 430EX IIs in the first place).

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.
 
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Jan 29, 2011
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I too am testing out some Einsteins in a couple of weeks. My solution to using both 600's and the Einstein is to use the 600 via the hotshoe and run the Einstein via a PC cord from the camera PC socket, you can even use the Cyber Commander via the PC socket, full control over everything from the camera!

That is the way I would do it should I go the Einstein route.
 
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Hello,

As it was mentioned by Neuro, The PW setup is it only worth keeping if you are going to use studio lights and want to control the power level on the strobes from the camera. If that doesn't happen in your case, sell all of the PW gear asap.

As far as using 600 ex-rt's, specially for events, I strongly recommend it. Canon has hit a homerun with its radio system. It is super reliable and fairly simple to use, once you get used to the key buttons on the flash (or directly on the camera, since you have a 5D3). We have been using the 600's for almost a year and it has been one of our best investments. We have 4 600s and 1 STE3 now.

My only additional suggestion, would be to consider using another 600 instead of the STE3 as the master. Since you do events, the AF assist light on the 600 is a savior for low light situations, plus the obvious fact that with the 600 you have a flash on top of your camera, giving you another option, beside the slave 600s. In my opinion, the STE3 is useful in more controlled enviroments (which is where we use it), but during a dimmly lit event, you need the AF to work as fast as possible.

By the way, looking forward to the 1.2.1 firmware for the 5D3. The AF when used with the assist light can really use more speed and that is supposed to come with this version.
 
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I have never had PW but did have an assortment of flashes and Cybersync triggers. I sold all of that and purchased 3 x 600 RT and an STE3. I love it. Group mode is fantastic which is designed to work with your 5D3. Menu layout is excellent and the LCD lights up when you press any button on the flash. You can also set it to stay on all the time if you wish. Love those features.

Only thing is the STE3 does not have an Af assist beam. When I need that I put the flash on the camera and the other two on stands. This is for wedding reception type venues. When not (in studio) I use the STE3.

The 5D3 is pretty good without the AF assist beam any many just leave it on AI Servo which disables the assist beam anyway. Some people are upset about the lack of assist beam but it has not phased me at all.

No off camera second curtain sync if that is important to you.

One more thing. Canon RT only plays nice with Canon RT - so far. I have not looked back and do not miss my old system.
 
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veraphoto said:
Hello,

As it was mentioned by Neuro, The PW setup is it only worth keeping if you are going to use studio lights and want to control the power level on the strobes from the camera. If that doesn't happen in your case, sell all of the PW gear asap.

As far as using 600 ex-rt's, specially for events, I strongly recommend it. Canon has hit a homerun with its radio system. It is super reliable and fairly simple to use, once you get used to the key buttons on the flash (or directly on the camera, since you have a 5D3). We have been using the 600's for almost a year and it has been one of our best investments. We have 4 600s and 1 STE3 now.

My only additional suggestion, would be to consider using another 600 instead of the STE3 as the master. Since you do events, the AF assist light on the 600 is a savior for low light situations, plus the obvious fact that with the 600 you have a flash on top of your camera, giving you another option, beside the slave 600s. In my opinion, the STE3 is useful in more controlled enviroments (which is where we use it), but during a dimmly lit event, you need the AF to work as fast as possible.

By the way, looking forward to the 1.2.1 firmware for the 5D3. The AF when used with the assist light can really use more speed and that is supposed to come with this version.

I too am looking forward to this FW upgrade. I have been following all the threads on this from day one.
 
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scottkinfw

Wildlife photography is my passion
CR Pro
I have the mini, AC3, TT5 X2 580EXII X2, and use it on a 5D2- almost daily. I use the top to bottom technique too. I have tried many tweaks. What I can tell you from my experience is that it is always a crap shoot. Usually I have to completely adjust camera, flash stand position etc., and finally put flashes on manual. Sounds like I need to pony up for new flashes.

digital paradise said:
veraphoto said:
Hello,

As it was mentioned by Neuro, The PW setup is it only worth keeping if you are going to use studio lights and want to control the power level on the strobes from the camera. If that doesn't happen in your case, sell all of the PW gear asap.

As far as using 600 ex-rt's, specially for events, I strongly recommend it. Canon has hit a homerun with its radio system. It is super reliable and fairly simple to use, once you get used to the key buttons on the flash (or directly on the camera, since you have a 5D3). We have been using the 600's for almost a year and it has been one of our best investments. We have 4 600s and 1 STE3 now.

My only additional suggestion, would be to consider using another 600 instead of the STE3 as the master. Since you do events, the AF assist light on the 600 is a savior for low light situations, plus the obvious fact that with the 600 you have a flash on top of your camera, giving you another option, beside the slave 600s. In my opinion, the STE3 is useful in more controlled enviroments (which is where we use it), but during a dimmly lit event, you need the AF to work as fast as possible.

By the way, looking forward to the 1.2.1 firmware for the 5D3. The AF when used with the assist light can really use more speed and that is supposed to come with this version.

I too am looking forward to this FW upgrade. I have been following all the threads on this from day one.
 
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One thing I forgot to ask - How quickly are you able to make changes to the remote flash units from the camera? I know you guys said it is easy and a dream to work with, but as someone that shoots primarily weddings, I really need to be able to dial in flash power (Manual or E-TTL compensation) within a second or two.

This is one thing I loved about my PW setup with the AC3 controller, as I could have multiple strobes setup at a reception and quickly change the output of my flashes or turn them off completely as I moved around the room, and you don't exactly have much time to make these changes. How is this on the 600-EX-RT? Thanks.
 
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Jan 29, 2011
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It is not as fast as the AC3, it isn't slow by any means and familiarity with the system will make a huge difference to your first attempts, but it isn't as quick or intuative as the AC3.

Personally I end up doing flash exposure comp without taking my eye from the camera, I use the cameras FEC button and spin the QCD, whereas individual group control I do from the flash or ST-E3-RT, the one thing I hate about the ST-E3-RT is the screen orientation, when using a decent height tripod it is impossible to see! I slip it into and out of the hotshoe rather than mess with my framing.

But the system is very easy and quick to control, and it works, every time, no hassle, no drama, I found I just trust it and this makes everything else easier and faster.
 
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Privatebydesign,

Thanks for your help. It sounds like you have a decent amount of experience with both systems. Is there anything you miss about the pocketwizard setup?

I'm really worried about the greatly reduced range and the speed of usability. In theory, the PW setup was absolutely perfect for me (Aside from having addition devices slapped on my flashes/camera) but it just works too inconsistendly. Are these two issues really ever issues for you in real world use?
 
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Jul 21, 2010
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privatebydesign said:
I too am testing out some Einsteins in a couple of weeks. My solution to using both 600's and the Einstein is to use the 600 via the hotshoe and run the Einstein via a PC cord from the camera PC socket, you can even use the Cyber Commander via the PC socket, full control over everything from the camera!

That is the way I would do it should I go the Einstein route.

Not a fan of cords, or tripping over them. But I'll likely try the MiniTT1 in the hotshoe under the ST-E3-RT, or a FlexTT5 via the PC socket, to trigger the Einstein.
 
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Jan 29, 2011
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Ah the damn internet! I wasn't clear, I meant trigger a remote control from the PC socket, not run a cable all the way to the Einstein. This leaves the hotshoe free for the ST-E3-RT/600EX-RT and even a Cyber Commander giving full remote control of the Einsteins can be used via the PC socket.

This modern cable buisness does make me laugh a little, we worked with full length PC cords for decades and are almost fanatical about wireless flash, and then we tether! Just a side observation.

roadrunner, I am writing a fuller reply to your questions.
 
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Jan 29, 2011
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I only had the PW setup for a week or so, I borrowed it all from a friend to evaluate. I used it with 550EX's so didn't suffer the extreme interference issues so many have with the 580EX II but I found it far from reliable, I couldn't tell you what firmware version it was running but to me it was so inelegant, cludgy and unreliable I never considered buying into the system after using it. It might seem easy and straightforwards to switch things on in a set order, but in the heat of the moment whilst unpacking gear quickly at an event that isn't forefront in my mind, and forget unfamiliar or inexperienced second shooters/assistants , getting misfires and diagnosing and correcting them took too long to sort out too. USB updates, settings via computer, unreliable connections, test firing, etc etc, it just didn't work for me. I hated the need to program in so many preferences via computer too.

The only really cool bit to me was the AC3, now that was so simple and intuitive I wish the guy who designed that part of the system had done the rest of it! That is the only part of the PW system I'd miss to any degree. But the intrinsic limitations of the AC3, the +3/-3 stops over your pre-programmed base point and "only" three groups are negated with the Canon RT system where you have full range control and five groups. There is no doubt as more people use three groups the ones who stand out will be using five more creatively.

The RT system in comparison is fantastic, after really shaking down the PW system and realising it wasn't for me the only other ETTL capable radio system I was interested in was the Phottix Odin. Now that is a really nice piece of kit too, very similar to the Nikon SU800 only radio, very intuitive, good screen angle and excellent feature set that surpasses the Canon feature set, particularly for pre 2012 bodies. But what I wanted, reliability, simplicity, elegance, and most event/reception shooters ideal, one flash on the shoe in ETTL and others doted around to raise the ambient in M, this is one area where the RT system shines, on post 2012 cameras it really is a dream setup and I have used it on 5D MkIII's like that. But I primarily shoot with pre 2012 bodies and although the functionality drops a bit I am still 100% satisfied with my setup. Basically if you have good batteries and turned it on and select slave mode the remotes work. No drama. No special order or test firings. No crossed fingers. It just works.

The range is much greater than Canon suggest too, I don't know why the rating is so low but when I got mine I tested it and was outside firing flashes that were inside my house from 150' away through walls. I haven't noticed a difference in range between the ST-E3-RT and the 600EX-RT as Masters. So my experience with the RT's is that it is 100% reliable at any practical distance I have imagined using. The PW might have a theoretical advantage in range, though many reviews suggest otherwise particularly with the 580EX II, but the RT works every single time at any distance I might need.

So the only real concern you might have is the interface, there is no getting round it, it isn't as fast as the AC3, but it is no slouch and depending on how you use a camera will make flash adjustments work better and faster for some than others. For instance in the above reception scenario I shoot with the camera in M mode with the remotes in M and on camera in ETTL, if I want to lighten or darken the ambient/remotes I just adjust aperture, this doesn't affect the ETTL illuminated subject as they are being metered separately. If I want to adjust the subject exposure I can do that without moving my eye from the viewfinder via the FEC button. So you can have a lot of control without touching the flash setup, I end up with De facto separate control of subject and ambient/remote flashes vie aperture control and FEC all without moving my eye from the viewfinder, don't forget FEC does not affect M flash power, only the ETTL strobes. But other situations can dictate completely different work methods.

If you want to switch off individual Groups then you do need to go into the flash menu but the 600 is so much better than any previous Canon flash for menu controls, indeed it is so good I am happy to play with P:Fn and C:Fn on the fly just for the sake of it. One tiny feature I like that Nikon has had for a long time, adjustable coverage priority, this can be used to nice effect over and above the head zoom function.

Maybe the best thing for you to do would be to either rent some, or buy them from a no quibble return outlet, and give them a real shakedown, but do give the interface a little time, there are so many different ways to work the system I'd be surprised if you couldn't find something that you liked, there is a learning curve but nothing intimidating (and nothing like the PW Flex system), and even after using mine extensively for months I am still finding nuances and applications I hadn't thought of before.

But biggest asset of all? Complete peace of mind in total reliability.
 
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RLPhoto

Gear doesn't matter, Just a Matter of Convenience.
Mar 27, 2012
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The 600RT system is slick, easy to use and very reliable from some rental's I've used. I really really like the 600-rt's if your willing to sacrifice $$$$ and Second Curtain sync off camera.

I never liked PW's TTL setups. Complex arrangements, Issues with 580II's, and Generally I shoot manual 90% of the time. That's why I still use El cheapo Cowboy triggers until I just replace all my speed-lites with 600's, but that has to wait until I sell off my ancient strobes for einsteins.
 
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unfocused

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Jul 20, 2010
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Sorry to hijack this thread, but I've got a question that I'm hoping Private or someone else with experience can answer for me.

After bitching for months about Canon's failure to release a receiver that can be used with the 580 EXII, I broke down this weekend, bit the bullet and ordered two 600 RT's from Canon's refurbished shop. I would have ordered four, but they went out of stock before I could order another two. Anyway, I now have two 600s and an ST-E3 on the way.

I really need at least one more, but want to wait to see if they come back in stock at Canon Refurb. For the time being, I still have four 580 EXIIs and Yongnuo's excellent ETTL triggers (I think they are 622C).

My question: for a temporary setup, can I use the 600 RTs in radio mode and fire a 580 EXII as a slave. Would the light from the 600 RTs trigger the 580 EXII or will they be off-sync? Alternatively, can I temporarily use the Yongnuo radio trigger to trigger the 600 RTs or am I risking something catastrophic?

As you all know, I'm no technical geek. I am and always will be a "seat of the pants" shooter. Advice please.
 
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unfocused said:
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I've got a question that I'm hoping Private or someone else with experience can answer for me.

After bitching for months about Canon's failure to release a receiver that can be used with the 580 EXII, I broke down this weekend, bit the bullet and ordered two 600 RT's from Canon's refurbished shop. I would have ordered four, but they went out of stock before I could order another two. Anyway, I now have two 600s and an ST-E3 on the way.

I really need at least one more, but want to wait to see if they come back in stock at Canon Refurb. For the time being, I still have four 580 EXIIs and Yongnuo's excellent ETTL triggers (I think they are 622C).

My question: for a temporary setup, can I use the 600 RTs in radio mode and fire a 580 EXII as a slave. Would the light from the 600 RTs trigger the 580 EXII or will they be off-sync? Alternatively, can I temporarily use the Yongnuo radio trigger to trigger the 600 RTs or am I risking something catastrophic?

As you all know, I'm no technical geek. I am and always will be a "seat of the pants" shooter. Advice please.

I think this setup would work. The 580s can be triggered via line of sight, but I would use an actual trigger receiver. I use 2 600s and a dumb manual flash that works well for indoors. Have the ST-E3 on your camera hotshoe, and the trigger plugged into your side port. I don't like line of sight triggering because it can be unreliable.
 
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