600ex-rt vs PocketWizard Flex TT5 Setup

[dwterry]

I just have to comment. I swear I have NOT found the "perfect" system yet. Each one comes so close ... and then misses it.

I jumped on the RadioPopper bandwagon when they first came out. I used the PW TT5 system for several years. And about 6 months ago switched to the Canon 600s with with the ST-E3 remote.

My very most favorite thing about the PW was the AC3 Zone controller. With REAL/PHYSICAL switches and dials I could adjust settings without even looking at it. A bride could be walking down the aisle and I would have one set of lights flashing, then as she passed me I could switch to a different set of lights by quickly turning one switch off and another on. I barely had to take the camera away from my face long enough to flip the switches and then resume.

The downside to TT5 is the stupid RF interference with the Canon 580EXII flashes. I had 5 of those, all with socks on them and still had issues of flashes sometimes being too far to fire reliably (at just 20-30 feet!).

I love the reliability of the Canon 600s. I love that I have 5 groups to play with. I love that it works essentially the same way as the AC3 Zone Controller (being able to turn individual lights on or off, ettl or manual, etc).

What I _hate_ is that there are far too many button presses and dial turns to accomplish a single task.

Turn a light off:
AC3: flip a switch (often without even looking)
ST-E3: put remote down below me where I can see it (old eyes aren't helping), push a button, rotate dial to appropriate group, toggle off

Change the power setting is the same:
AC3: return a dial (often without even looking)
ST-E3: put remote down below me where I can see it, push a button, rotate dial to appropriate group, push a button, rotate dial to desired power level

Too many button presses and dial turns - all of which require that I watch the screen while I'm doing it because all of the buttons are "context sensitive" (meaning they change what they do based on what is on screen at the time).

I would PAY EXTRA MONEY to get a remote that let me control my lights with physical buttons and dials like the AC3 Zone Controller.

Please pass the word along to Canon.

 

[privatebydesign]

Hi unfocused,

Like PhotographyAdventure said you have several options, but the only way you can get full Canon ETTL functionality on the 600's and 580's is via the optical wireless. However it might be worth trying the ST-E3-RT on pass through on the 622C controlling the 600's, and have the remote 580's on the other 622C's that might work, but I doubt it! I don't see how you could control the 580's as the camera flash menu would "see" the ST-E3-RT.

Other than that thought manual triggering of some flashes via the PC socket and the 622, or more 622's (if they work fully with the 600's) would seem the way forwards until you get your next 600's.

 

[vuilang]

PW is less %trigger but more accurate on exposure (in ETTL mode, manual is.......manual)
600 RT is 100% trigger but less accurate on exposure.
that's is what im having.. but mostly using 600RTs due to convieniences

 

[unfocused]

Hi unfocused,

Like PhotographyAdventure said you have several options, but the only way you can get full Canon ETTL functionality on the 600's and 580's is via the optical wireless. However it might be worth trying the ST-E3-RT on pass through on the 622C controlling the 600's, and have the remote 580's on the other 622C's that might work, but I doubt it! I don't see how you could control the 580's as the camera flash menu would "see" the ST-E3-RT.

Other than that thought manual triggering of some flashes via the PC socket and the 622, or more 622's (if they work fully with the 600's) would seem the way forwards until you get your next 600's.

Sorry guys, I guess I wasn't clear. I was just wondering if I could set the 580 EXII to manual and use the flash from the 600s to trigger it as an old-fashioned optical slave. I wasn't thinking I would have access to ETTL on the 580s.

 

[privatebydesign]

If you want the 600's working in ETTL and the 580's manual, then only if you can find a Canon compatible optical trigger that would also ignore the ETTL pre-flashes, the 600's still fire pre-flashes for metering even in radio wireless. If you want everything manual then the 580EX II doesn't have a built in optical trigger like most Nikon flashes, but you can use one of these.

http://www.flashzebra.com/products/0118/index.shtml

Using them would give you dumb triggering over the 580's whilst still giving manual remote control over the 600's.

Hope that was more along the lines of your thought process.

 

[unfocused]

If you want the 600's working in ETTL and the 580's manual, then only if you can find a Canon compatible optical trigger that would also ignore the ETTL pre-flashes, the 600's still fire pre-flashes for metering even in radio wireless. If you want everything manual then the 580EX II doesn't have a built in optical trigger like most Nikon flashes, but you can use one of these.

http://www.flashzebra.com/products/0118/index.shtml

Using them would give you dumb triggering over the 580's whilst still giving manual remote control over the 600's.

Hope that was more along the lines of your thought process.

Thanks, that does help. It's that pre-flash that always presents a problem. I'll play around with things when I get the 600s. I'm going to hang on the 580s until I can get another one or two 600s, so I won't be any worse off than I am now and knowing Canon's refurbished store, as soon as they end their current sale, the 600s will probably magically come back into stock.

Again, sorry for hijacking the OP's thread. You can now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Ah the damn internet! I wasn't clear, I meant trigger a remote control from the PC socket, not run a cable all the way to the Einstein. This leaves the hotshoe free for the ST-E3-RT/600EX-RT and even a Cyber Commander giving full remote control of the Einsteins can be used via the PC socket.

Thanks - makes sense. I agree with your comment about the simplicity of the AC3 (despite the 6-stop range - and for me, that hasn't been an issue as I just have different baseline set points for indoors vs. out, and I haven't needed more range).

If I interpret the PW documentation correctly, I can mount the MiniTT1 on the hotshoe, mount the ST-E3-RT onto that, and control power on the PW receivers via the ST-E3. The docs are scanty, assuming the RT still emits, I may be able to control the Einstein via the MiniTT1 with power set by the ST-E3, and the three 600's with the Canon RT. Else, I'll use a short PC cable to a FlexTT5 with the AC3 to control the Einstein (if possible to use the AC3 for that) with the ST-E3 in the hotshoe. If that works, I will find a way to attach the FlexTT5 to the side of the L bracket, to keep it from dangling. I'm sure RRS has a solution for that, for a price.

 

[roadrunner]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I bit the bullet and I ordered 3 600 EX RTs. May pick up a fourth, I'm not sure yet.

And DWTerry: I couldn't agree with you more about the physical switches. I am really going to miss that. Problem with my AC3 experience is that half the time, flipping the switches and dials didn't do anything anyways =)

Canon: I'm even willing to pay the Canon tax for such a solution. Give me physical buttons and I'll pay $500 for that stupid controller!

 

[roadrunner]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I wanted to provide an update for others that may be facing a similar dilemma (Or for those that find this thread via a search engine in the future).

As I said, I purchased 3 600 EX-RT flashes to replace my 430 EX II/580 EX II + Pocket Wizard Flex TT5 setup. As of right now, I couldn't be happier. The flashes trigger every time, with the correct settings, and well over the advertised range. Here's a list of pro's and cons when compared to the PW TT5 setup based on my personal experience.

Canon 600 EX-RT Pros:
Reliable triggering
Settings are easy to change, much better menu system than previous flashes
Ability to easily control up to 5 groups (Vs 3 for the PW + AC3 setup)
Simple to set some flashes to manual and some to TTL, and control the settings of each (AC3 was inconsistent for me for this purpose)
No waiting for firmware to make the PW work with new cameras, like the 5D3.
Cheaper if you are building a radio flash solution from scratch. I got mine for $500 each and B&H.
One less piece of equipment you have to maintain, carry around, and setup by eliminating the PWs altogether.

Canon 600 EX-RT Cons:
I lost the ability to sync my flashes at 1/400 or 1/500 (Depending on the camera I was using) compared to that standard 5D3 sync speed of 1/200.
Even though the range is much greater than advertised, they still can't compete with PWs incredible range.
No ability to trigger a remote camera
No physical switches and dials to control settings like the AC3, which makes it a little slower.

All in all, I am very happy with my choice to switch to the canon 600 EX-RT. They have been extremely reliable and a much better solution for me personally, where I need whatever solution I choose to work every single time. On paper, it would seem as if the PW flex + AC3 is the perfect setup, and I would agree, but I have found that in practice, the Canon solution just works much better and much more reliably. I wish I had saved my money on the PW setup. Hope this helps someone else, and thanks again to everyone how help me with this decision.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Canon 600 EX-RT Cons:

I lost the ability to sync my flashes at 1/400 or 1/500 (Depending on the camera I was using) compared to that standard 5D3 sync speed of 1/200.

No ability to trigger a remote camera

With a 5DIII you can do high speed sync with the RT system (although not with pre-2012 bodies).

You can also fire the camera remotely with from a flash/ST-E3 with another in the hotshoe (pre-2012 bodies can remotely trigger the shutter, but a cable to the N3 socket is needed).

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Another issue with third party flashes and triggers is that they often do not work with new Canon Models, and the wait for updated firmware can be 6 months if ever. That's probably OK for a cheap flash, since it won't last long anyway, but for a expensive trigger system, it might make someone unhappy.

 

[privatebydesign]

roadrunner,

Glad it all worked out for you.

As Neuro said you can use HSS, you do lose a fair bit of flash power however it allows sync at any speed, and after you go past about 1/400 you are down to the shutter duration limiting flash power via any strobe anyway. The first couple of stops do take a big hit though, moving from sync speed to one third higher costs about 2 stops of power, by the time you get to 1/1000 the Canon flashes in HSS are working more efficiently than relying on long duration flash . Also as Neuro says, remote triggering is very easy, I have the SR-N3 cable for my pre 2012 bodies. The only limitation I have found is you can't trigger remotes with an unattached ST-E3-RT, you can with a 600EX-RT. Page 68 of the 600EX-RT manual covers remote release from a slave operation.

Indeed this was one feature that appealed to me for my real estate work, I can set up my camera on a tripod with an ST-E3-RT on it and walk around with a 600EX-RT and point the flash where I want for accent lighting, push the button and the camera is triggered by the flash I am holding, that is then triggered by the camera! Very cool system.

 

[privatebydesign]

With a 5DIII you can do high speed sync with the RT system (although not with pre-2012 bodies).

Just a clarification on that point as the manual is far from clear. HSS via RT does work on some/many/most (?) pre 2012 bodies, just not in combination with ETTL flash metering (warning at the bottom of page 25),but it might/should work in Manual flash mode. Also whilst many pre 2012 bodies do not support RT ETTL at all (page 51), and no pre 2012 bodies are supposed to support RT ETTL and HSS at the same time, my 1Ds MkIII's do and are 100% reliable in that mode.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Thanks - seems like Canon was either conservative in their specs, didn't bother testing, or <cynical>know full well these things work, but are underhandedly pushing people to buy new bodies for supposed full compatibility</cynical>.

 

[privatebydesign]

I think, giving Canon the benefit of the doubt, they were cautious and they didn't bother testing the multitude of legacy products for exact specs. Of course this works both ways, it "encourages" people to buy newer bodies, but on the flip side more accurate info might have encouraged more 600 sales to older camera owners who don't intend upgrading bodies but do want better flashes.

For instance, the specs say my sync speed goes down one stop in RT mode. I have found this is not actually true most of the time, but is sometimes, that is, I sometimes get a shutter shadow at 1/250 but most of the time don't. I haven't pinned down what, exactly, is the setup that does get the shadow but I well understand Canon just saying "you lose one stop of sync speed in RT mode" rather than going into every combination of every camera, can you imagine the outcry if they didn't put that proviso in there and people called them out on it?

What I was hoping for prior to purchasing my RT system, was actual user feedback on their own real world results, I never could find it though which seemed strange bearing in mind all the people here who listed owning 1Ds MkIII's and 600EX-RT's, yet not one of them, even via PM, could give me any heads up at all.

 

[roadrunner]

Canon 600 EX-RT Cons:

I lost the ability to sync my flashes at 1/400 or 1/500 (Depending on the camera I was using) compared to that standard 5D3 sync speed of 1/200.

No ability to trigger a remote camera

With a 5DIII you can do high speed sync with the RT system (although not with pre-2012 bodies).

You can also fire the camera remotely with from a flash/ST-E3 with another in the hotshoe (pre-2012 bodies can remotely trigger the shutter, but a cable to the N3 socket is needed).

Hi Neuro,

Thanks for the response. I wasn't aware of the remote shutter triggering capabilities, that's something I will have to look into.

On the sync speed, I should have specified; I lose PocketWizard's proprietary HyperSync, which essentially allowed you to fire a full powered flash above your camera's rated sync speed. For me, I was able to get 1/400 on one of my bodies an 1/500 on the other, compared to the standard Canon sync speed of 1/250 or 1/200, which is a pretty big benefit to the PocketWizard system in my eyes. Because both systems can take advantage of Canon's High Speed Sync (Which I use regularly) I don't give a benefit to either solution there.

 

[Chewngum]

I just have to comment. I swear I have NOT found the "perfect" system yet. Each one comes so close ... and then misses it.

I jumped on the RadioPopper bandwagon when they first came out. I used the PW TT5 system for several years. And about 6 months ago switched to the Canon 600s with with the ST-E3 remote.

My very most favorite thing about the PW was the AC3 Zone controller. With REAL/PHYSICAL switches and dials I could adjust settings without even looking at it. A bride could be walking down the aisle and I would have one set of lights flashing, then as she passed me I could switch to a different set of lights by quickly turning one switch off and another on. I barely had to take the camera away from my face long enough to flip the switches and then resume.

The downside to TT5 is the stupid RF interference with the Canon 580EXII flashes. I had 5 of those, all with socks on them and still had issues of flashes sometimes being too far to fire reliably (at just 20-30 feet!).

I love the reliability of the Canon 600s. I love that I have 5 groups to play with. I love that it works essentially the same way as the AC3 Zone Controller (being able to turn individual lights on or off, ettl or manual, etc).

What I _hate_ is that there are far too many button presses and dial turns to accomplish a single task.

Turn a light off:
AC3: flip a switch (often without even looking)
ST-E3: put remote down below me where I can see it (old eyes aren't helping), push a button, rotate dial to appropriate group, toggle off

Change the power setting is the same:
AC3: return a dial (often without even looking)
ST-E3: put remote down below me where I can see it, push a button, rotate dial to appropriate group, push a button, rotate dial to desired power level

Too many button presses and dial turns - all of which require that I watch the screen while I'm doing it because all of the buttons are "context sensitive" (meaning they change what they do based on what is on screen at the time).

I would PAY EXTRA MONEY to get a remote that let me control my lights with physical buttons and dials like the AC3 Zone Controller.

Please pass the word along to Canon.

Try out the Yongnuo YN622C then. I have 5 transceivers and after putting complete faith in them for a number of jobs they've never let me down. I haven't tested beyond 30m but have mixed and matched the flashes between the 550Ex, 580EX, 580EXII and 600EX with no change. They have physical buttons, Hotshoe passthrough, AF assist beam, batteries last a lonng time, they are reliable, HSS is not problem, can be controlled entirely in camera if you want, etc etc. You could put the flashes down the aisle and press the group button by touch to change the channel as the bride moves. These things are absolutely fantastic. You can customise lots of functions too like remote flash zoom, mixing of ETTL and manual metering, PC Sync port built in and link lights blink on metering start. The RT system is amazing but very expensive and still limited more than the YN622C. I thoroughly recommended anyone doing remote ETTL to research and buys these....you won't look regret it!