Canon #1 in Japanese market share for both DSLR and mirrorless in 2018

[Diltiazem]

Yeah, but that was before wide availability of the a7III, also known to some as the spec sheet that rocked the world. I’m sure that once sales of that awesomeness are included, those numbers will.....not really change.

Canon lost about 4% market share in DSLR but gained about 10% in mirrorless. So, there probably is a net gain for Canon in the ILC market. If something similar happened worldwide then Canon's overwhelming dominance is unlikely to change, it may even increase. In any case, a7III probably is Sony's first successful camera and it may have prevented Sony from losing ILC market share. Time will tell.

 

[dtaylor]

You've just said yourself that you are sick and tired of hearing "Canon sensors are behind." But the reality is that you've even qualified why they are behind in certain areas. In addition, you probably won't stop hearing about this until "Canon sensors are finally ahead."

If we're going to split hairs to defend rhetoric, then let's do it right. I'm shooting 50mp. Why is Sony behind? When will they finally be ahead?

The sooner you allow yourself to validate that people like us do exist without trying to minimize those differences of why we choose the competition,

Please. I'm not "invalidating" you. If you want Sony, buy Sony. I'm just tired of Sony fans..and certain major review sites...exaggerating every single Sony advantage while ignoring every single Sony disadvantage. My post was directed at the 'Sony is always best in every way and Canon is doomed' fanboys.

The systems are different. By all means buy the one you think best serves your needs.

 

[Talys]

Why!? Their employer is Amazon, and they are happy with sales, no matter of which brand. However, Canon's success has done nothing to revert the abysmal trend of the camera market (and neither has any other company), so this still remains a pyrrhic victory for them.

This is why when I walk into a camera shop, the sales guy asks me what I shoot, which, remarkably, is always the best system ever.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Why!? Their employer is Amazon, and they are happy with sales, no matter of which brand.

But perhaps they are more happy with sales of some brands than others? That’s certainly true (and has been reported on) for other types of products, where their search results will serve up items that generate more profit for Amazon higher on the list. As I’ve stated elsewhere, a local brick-and-mortar shop owner previously told me that Canon’s margins for him were lower than other manufacturers, and it cut into his profits selling Canon compared to other brands (and Canon’s assurances that volume would make up for it wasn’t bearing out for him). I have no idea if that’s what’s going on with Amazon/DPR, but it is certainly a possibility...and if true, could be a rationale for bias in DPR’s reviews.

 

[Alastair Norcross]

Imagine what they could do if they had Sony sensors. Oh hold on, everyone should buy Canon because of the lenses and the colors, right? Thankfully we have Sony, Fuji and Nikon as competitors so we have some technical innovation, maybe this is the year Canon surprise us with some great cameras. Let's be honest, the 7dII was disappointing, the 5d iv was disappointing compared to the D850, the EOS R is generally thought to be worse than the Z6. I know the Canon cameras are good enough, but we'd alll like to see Canon take a lead for a change.

If you were disappointed by the 7DII, you obviously didn't use it enough, or perhaps didn't use it at all. I loved my 7D, but the 7DII is so much better. The upgrade from 7D to 7DII was the biggest model upgrade in Canon DSLR history. Everything about the already excellent 7D was improved. Perhaps a spec-obsessed gadget freak, who wasn't interested in actually using the 7DII to take pictures, could have been disappointed by a cursory reading of the spec sheet (but even then, it didn't take too much reading comprehension to see what a great upgrade it was). But no actual photographer could have been disappointed with it, after actually using it.

 

[Kharan]

But perhaps they are more happy with sales of some brands than others? That’s certainly true (and has been reported on) for other types of products, where their search results will serve up items that generate more profit for Amazon higher on the list. As I’ve stated elsewhere, a local brick-and-mortar shop owner previously told me that Canon’s margins for him were lower than other manufacturers, and it cut into his profits selling Canon compared to other brands (and Canon’s assurances that volume would make up for it wasn’t bearing out for him). I have no idea if that’s what’s going on with Amazon/DPR, but it is certainly a possibility...and if true, could be a rationale for bias in DPR’s reviews.

That sounds strange to me, as Canon used to have the best profit margins in the industry - that, there, is probably 50% responsible for their leading position in sales. The other 40% is their synergetic sales and distribution network - it really helps to have something as far-reaching as a printer business to get into big retail, especially in this age of cameras not being stocked anymore. Olympus, Pentax and Panasonic have all but disappeared from big box stores. Even Nikon has been dropped by retailers worldwide, which put the hurt in their sales numbers after 2015.
The remaining 10% is due to lens lineup or other technical criteria. It's not that important for the mass market, but it's become more and more critical as entry-level buyers dry up, and I haven't seen Canon respond quickly enough to this reality.
Amazon, with their huge volume and low overhead, can easily afford to sell the brand that people like the most, regardless of a specific product margin. Hell, I'm sure that if Pentax released the hottest camera of 2019 tomorrow, Amazon would gladly ramp up their K-mount offerings in a heartbeat, while DPR would still bash the brand like they always do

 

[Talys]

Amazon, with their huge volume and low overhead, can easily afford to sell the brand that people like the most, regardless of a specific product margin.

With Amazon, it's not like a brick-and-mortar, where stocking Fuji might mean not stocking Olympus. They just either directly sell or sell via FBA (fulfillment by Amazon) nearly everything that's moderately popular, regardless of margin.

 

[ozturert]

....but that doesn't diminish the fact that the competition has features the equivalent Canon body does not.....

Now here is the shocking news for you: But that doesn't diminish the fact that the Canon has features the equivalent competition body does not.
You get my point? You don't, if you are stuck with DxO numbers...

 

[Nelu]

But no actual photographer could have been disappointed with it, after actually using it.

So not true!
I was disappointed with it and I returned it after a week of getting very fast bursts of soft photos!
Not necessarily out-of-focus photos but soft photos, and that's compared to the 5D Mark III, not the original 7D. And no, the AF micro adjustment didn't help...
I tried to use the 7D Mark II for bird photography and frankly it was useless to me. Maybe I got a bad one but I didn't want to have anything to do with it and I returned it in a week, as I already stated.
Nelu

 

[jayphotoworks]

If we're going to split hairs to defend rhetoric, then let's do it right. I'm shooting 50mp. Why is Sony behind? When will they finally be ahead?

Please. I'm not "invalidating" you. If you want Sony, buy Sony. I'm just tired of Sony fans..and certain major review sites...exaggerating every single Sony advantage while ignoring every single Sony disadvantage. My post was directed at the 'Sony is always best in every way and Canon is doomed' fanboys.

The systems are different. By all means buy the one you think best serves your needs.

Then simply accept the things the competition does better today is the focus of mainstream reviews, while the things that Canon does better is not. DR, 4K Crop, Readout, IBIS and FPS are some of things in focus these days in reviews which Canon is not great at or doesn't have. I don't know why this matters to you since those negative reviews and Sony fans haven't affected Canon's market share at all; in fact Canon continues to grow. The only negative impact is the ego's of those Canon shooters who are upset their purchase decisions have not been reviewed in the best light and are tired of why Canon doesn't get reviewed favorably these days...

 

[neuroanatomist]

The only negative impact is the ego's...

Interesting that you mention egos in the context of people visiting canonrumors to tout positive reviews of Sony cameras.

 

[jayphotoworks]

Interesting that you mention egos in the context of people visiting canonrumors to tout positive reviews of Sony cameras.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm just a glutton for punishment trying to convince Canon shooters why the competition might be better in certain circumstances on a Canonrumors forum no less. I'm not intentionally trying to tout positive reviews of Sony cameras, but it is odd that members find one or many of the mainstream reviewers that have quite a following either technically inaccurate, anti-Canon or simply an entertainment outlet because it doesn't immediately align with their ideal brand. That includes DXO, DPR, Tony Northrup and others. Where are the large mainstream sites that praise Canon for its efforts so we can contrast this dialog with something else?

I'll agree sites and reviewers have their own agendas. DPR might be motivated because of its acquisition by Amazon. DXO might be motivated simply to be controversial. Tony might be a tech geek that likes to tout the latest and greatest purely anecdotally. But at the end of the day, they've intentionally or un-intentionally put Sony products in a good light (to the chagrin of those shooting with the competition apparently).

I'll agree that DPR might have taken missteps in the past with certain technical details regarding their reviews. But does it immediately deem them entertainment fodder? Give an entity enough time and you'll find plenty of issues even if it isn't without our own productive years. Olympus played fast and loose with their books, Sony got into every consumer electronic nook and cranny and dropped them even faster, Canon denied focusing issues on its top sports flagship for months until enough negative reviews came around and Nikon had its oil spots and failed experiments (keymission, aps-c compacts and 1 series).

I think we can at least take a step back and try to understand the merits of each of these companies/entities and maybe give them a second chance or hear what they have to say?

 

[Mikehit]

Then simply accept the things the competition does better today is the focus of mainstream reviews, while the things that Canon does better is not. DR, 4K Crop, Readout, IBIS and FPS are some of things in focus these days in reviews which Canon is not great at or doesn't have. I don't know why this matters to you since those negative reviews and Sony fans haven't affected Canon's market share at all; in fact Canon continues to grow. The only negative impact is the ego's of those Canon shooters who are upset their purchase decisions have not been reviewed in the best light and are tired of why Canon doesn't get reviewed favorably these days...

I expect that from reviews. When I come on to forums I would hope to find discussion that goes beyond spec-sheet quotes and read people having a broader view than 'what can I say that will get more clicks'.
And I really do not have an ego regards camera gear and know Canon's limitations. But, as dtaylor says, I also know where Canon is better than the competition something that you seem reluctant to acknowledge (or do so grudgingly).

 

[Mikehit]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm just a glutton for punishment trying to convince Canon shooters why the competition might be better in certain circumstances on a Canonrumors forum no less.

Please show us a quote where someone has denied that. I would go further and say that I have seen a widepsread acceptance that that is the case.

I think we can at least take a step back and try to understand the merits of each of these companies/entities and maybe give them a second chance or hear what they have to say?

I wish you would.

 

[jayphotoworks]

I expect that from reviews. When I come on to forums I would hope to find discussion that goes beyond spec-sheet quotes and read people having a broader view than 'what can I say that will get more clicks'.
And I really do not have an ego regards camera gear and know Canon's limitations. But, as dtaylor says, I also know where Canon is better than the competition something that you seem reluctant to acknowledge (or do so grudgingly).

I accept that Canon is better than the competition in lens selection, pro support and market share. They are also better at the top of end of sports camera performance with the 1DX2. If you want an OVF and class leading performance, there are no current options available outside of Nikon that can deliver a similar experience. I am not so much in agreement that they are better in ergonomics and color science since the gen 3 Sony cameras were introduced, but I can understand that some shooters that tried out Sony in their earlier days was probably met with a product that wasn't nearly as refined as the existing juggernauts. What I am, however reluctant to acknowledge is when posters say Canon is not behind in sensor tech. I'm not sure if this is because Canon has an R&D issue or simply because they don't need to push the envelope because their market doesn't need it, but that is simply where it sits today as highlighted in quite a number of reviews.

 

[Ian_of_glos]

This is why when I walk into a camera shop, the sales guy asks me what I shoot, which, remarkably, is always the best system ever.

This has not been my experience and it is one of the main reasons why I buy most of my camera equipment in person by visiting reputable camera shops rather than ordering on line.
My first digital camera was a Canon 7D but when I arrived at the shop I had been planning to buy a Nikon D7000. The sales assistance allowed me to try both cameras and eventually convinced me that the 7D was the better option.

 

[neuroanatomist]

...a product that wasn't nearly as refined as the existing juggernauts.

So an appropriate appellation for the a7III and a9 is:

jug·ger·naut /ˈjəɡərˌnôt/ noun
1. a huge, powerful, and overwhelming force or institution?

Careful, your bias is showing.

What I am, however reluctant to acknowledge is when posters say Canon is not behind in sensor tech.

Who says that? I’ve seen widespread acknowledgement on CR that Canon sensors have been behind others on a selected few metrics (low ISO DR, readout speed) for years. So it seems you’re reluctant to acknowledge your own strawman argument, I guess that’s a good thing?

 

[Kit.]

I am not so much in agreement that they are better in ergonomics and color science since the gen 3 Sony cameras were introduced, but I can understand that some shooters that tried out Sony in their earlier days was probably met with a product that wasn't nearly as refined as the existing juggernauts.

What are you talking about? When it comes to ILCs, Sony is Minolta, one of The Big Three (and you know the other two).

What I am, however reluctant to acknowledge is when posters say Canon is not behind in sensor tech. I'm not sure if this is because Canon has an R&D issue or simply because they don't need to push the envelope because their market doesn't need it, but that is simply where it sits today as highlighted in quite a number of reviews.

Have you considered other explanations? Such as: Canon's sensor tech is fine, what we see in the "quite a number of reviews" is the price Canon's sensors need to pay for DPAF and Canon's stubborn reliance on its own fabs for its DSP chips?

 

[Pape]

canon looks just bad atm 1d 7d and 5d are old cameras and other cameras are pretty much consumer level,where sensor must be made cheap.

 

[Ozarker]

Sometimes I wonder if I'm just a glutton for punishment trying to convince Canon shooters why the competition might be better in certain circumstances on a Canonrumors forum no less. I'm not intentionally trying to tout positive reviews of Sony cameras, but it is odd that members find one or many of the mainstream reviewers that have quite a following either technically inaccurate, anti-Canon or simply an entertainment outlet because it doesn't immediately align with their ideal brand. That includes DXO, DPR, Tony Northrup and others. Where are the large mainstream sites that praise Canon for its efforts so we can contrast this dialog with something else?

I'll agree sites and reviewers have their own agendas. DPR might be motivated because of its acquisition by Amazon. DXO might be motivated simply to be controversial. Tony might be a tech geek that likes to tout the latest and greatest purely anecdotally. But at the end of the day, they've intentionally or un-intentionally put Sony products in a good light (to the chagrin of those shooting with the competition apparently).

I'll agree that DPR might have taken missteps in the past with certain technical details regarding their reviews. But does it immediately deem them entertainment fodder? Give an entity enough time and you'll find plenty of issues even if it isn't without our own productive years. Olympus played fast and loose with their books, Sony got into every consumer electronic nook and cranny and dropped them even faster, Canon denied focusing issues on its top sports flagship for months until enough negative reviews came around and Nikon had its oil spots and failed experiments (keymission, aps-c compacts and 1 series).

I think we can at least take a step back and try to understand the merits of each of these companies/entities and maybe give them a second chance or hear what they have to say?

I think the mistake is equating the number of a persons "followers" and "likes" on a website with popularity, agreement, accuracy, or (most importantly) relevance. It's real easy to click "follow" and never see that website again. To me, the best gauge of whether or not a company is hitting the bulls-eye for what people want and desire is sales. It matters not what Sony feature is the latest craze, if people ain't buying it, people don't care about it... no matter what the internet reviewers ($reviewing for clicks$) say. In the internet review world, controversy = money. In the camera sales world: Creating a product the vast majority want = money. There's a vast difference between the two.

Canon ain't the slouch many would have others believe.