Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America

[zlatko]

... but I'd like to add that even if Canon would consider low iso important, they have no hope on reaching or overtaking Nikon/Sony in this area due to patents, so it's smart to stop trying and expand their own strengths - which unfortunately seems to be amateur video and high-end sports/tele.

... or very fortunately for people who happen to do amateur video and high-end sports/tele. And very fortunately for people who photograph weddings. I just read a comment on Facebook from a Nikon using pro asking whether the skin tones from the new Df were like those from the D4, because the skin tones from his D4 were giving him problems. I've seen dozens of Canon DSLRs (and bags full of Canon lenses) used by wedding videographers in recent years, and never once a Nikon or Sony.

 

[jrista]

... but I'd like to add that even if Canon would consider low iso important, they have no hope on reaching or overtaking Nikon/Sony in this area due to patents, so it's smart to stop trying and expand their own strengths - which unfortunately seems to be amateur video and high-end sports/tele.

I wouldn't say that is necessarily true. Canon's problem is their ADC and other downstream electronics, which exist off-die, operate at high frequency, and are only moderately parallelized. The direct readout from the sensor is usually pretty clean. It is when the downstream secondary amplifier kicks in, and when ADC occurs in the DIGIC chips, that the bulk of read noise is introduced.

I think Canon sensors are actually very good technology...they simply lack the image processing integration and digital readout that Sony Exmor has (the ADCs are hyperparallelized and on the sensor die). That said, when Canon published the press release about 120mp APS-H sensor, it clearly described some kind of on-die parallel "image processing" that sounded very much like Sony's Exmor. I don't recall anything about fully digital readout (i.e. with digital CDS and digital amplification), but Canon had to move the ADC on-die, and greatly increase it's parallelization, in order to achieve the 9.5fps readout of that monster volume of pixel data. They also have patents on that sensor.

So, while Canon likely won't create something that works exactly the same way as Exmor, they already have technology that is very similar in design...

 

[jrista]

... but I'd like to add that even if Canon would consider low iso important, they have no hope on reaching or overtaking Nikon/Sony in this area due to patents, so it's smart to stop trying and expand their own strengths - which unfortunately seems to be amateur video and high-end sports/tele.

... or very fortunately for people who happen to do amateur video and high-end sports/tele. And very fortunately for people who photograph weddings. I just read a comment on Facebook from a Nikon using pro asking whether the skin tones from the new Df were like those from the D4, because the skin tones from his D4 were giving him problems. I've seen dozens of Canon DSLRs (and bags full of Canon lenses) used by wedding videographers in recent years, and never once a Nikon or Sony.

Some would argue that this is the JPEG conversion, others would argue that it is due to sensor differences.

For weddings that I've been to, it has been a 50-50 split of Nikon vs Canon.

However, I see more "amateur wedding photographers" with an APS-C Canon DSLR than I do with Nikon. If someone has Nikon kit, they've got proper pro equipment.

I know a few dozen wedding, event, and portrait photographers. Two use a pair of D3, one uses a D3 and a D800 (his work is phenomenal, he LOVES the D800+14-24, but he still caters to the D3). Two use the D7000 (I think one upgraded to a D7100.) The rest use Canon 5D II and 5D III (many usually have a backup as well, sometimes its a 5D III + old 5D II, sometimes it is two 5D III bodies.) I know a few wedding and portrait photogs who use a 1D X + 5D III. A couple also use the 5D II/III + 7D as their backup. The most talked about is the 5D III, usually for one key feature: The quiet shooting mode!

Without question, particularly for weddings, the 5D line is the most frequently used camera amongst the people I know and know of. The 5D II might actually be the most ubiquitous wedding and portraiture camera I've encountered, at least here in Colorado. That goes for amateurs as well, and a few young budding wedding photographers (in their very late teens in some cases!) who show phenomenal skill and probably have rich careers ahead of them. Their gear is most often the 5D II + 24-70/2.8L + 70-200/2.8 L, with the 50/1.2L, 85/1.4L and 135/2 L filling in fairly frequently as well.

Given my experience, friends, and acquaintances (and the fact that I've moderated photo.stackexchange.com since 2010), the notion that "amateur wedding photographers" use APS-C Canon DSLRs is pure conjecture. The 5D II+70-200 seems to have become the amateur wedding photographer kit of choice, and given the excellent price/quality ratio of those two, it's no wonder why.

 

[unfocused]

A couple of years ago, 8 out of 10 DSLRs sold in the USA carry the Canon logo... now, they are down to 6 out of 10.

Interesting. Would you mind providing your source for those data? Thanks!

A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

Totally meaningless. Here is what "top camera" search results means according the dpreview: "Cameras receiving the most clicks in reviews and specs in the last five days."

Newly released cameras are always going to generate the most clicks on a review site. There is no relationship to the number of people reading a review to the sales of a camera.

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

What continues to amaze me is that the 5DIII consistently holds a slot in the top 10 against cameras that cost a fraction of what it costs. In fact the body only comes in at #9 and the body with lens is at #18. (The 6D kit is at #10 and the 6D body #13) There are not any full-frame Nikon bodies in the top 20.

 

[jrista]

A couple of years ago, 8 out of 10 DSLRs sold in the USA carry the Canon logo... now, they are down to 6 out of 10.

Interesting. Would you mind providing your source for those data? Thanks!

A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

Is Sony even in the top 20 at all?

 

[unfocused]

A couple of years ago, 8 out of 10 DSLRs sold in the USA carry the Canon logo... now, they are down to 6 out of 10.

Interesting. Would you mind providing your source for those data? Thanks!

A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

Is Sony even in the top 20 at all?

No, but it's a little bit hard to get a fair comparison because the new Sony's aren't DSLRs so they are in a different category.

 

[jrista]

A couple of years ago, 8 out of 10 DSLRs sold in the USA carry the Canon logo... now, they are down to 6 out of 10.

Interesting. Would you mind providing your source for those data? Thanks!

A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

Is Sony even in the top 20 at all?

No, but it's a little bit hard to get a fair comparison because the new Sony's aren't DSLRs so they are in a different category.

True, but Sony also has DSLR cameras... I know a couple people who absolutely swear by them, one of them is a pretty good Colorado landscape photographer. But they always seem to be a minority, despite Sony's technologically superior sensors.

 

[Loswr]

A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

Sorry, dilbert not interesting nor even useful data. As unfocused stated, it's meaningless.

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

What continues to amaze me is that the 5DIII consistently holds a slot in the top 10 against cameras that cost a fraction of what it costs. In fact the body only comes in at #9 and the body with lens is at #18. (The 6D kit is at #10 and the 6D body #13) There are not any full-frame Nikon bodies in the top 20.

If you want another interesting 'top 100' list, look at what Amazon buyers think of the products they've purchased. Check their Top 100 Rated dSLRs list. The top 14 are all Canon, only 3 Nikon in the top 20 (and all three are D3100/kits). Dilbert, care to count the number of coworkers and friends to whom you 'can't recommend Canon', and compare that to the number of positive recommendations that Canon buyers took the time to post, that result in Canon dominating that list?

The awesome low ISO IQ, high resolution, astounding DR, and higher-than-any-other-dSLR DxOMark Sensor Score of the Nikon D800E have earned it the impressive rank of #76 on that list (only 14 spots behind the poor DR, horrible banding in the shadows 5DII). The D800 and D600/D610? Nowhere to be found (although the D700 is on there...barely, at #98).

 

[Loswr]

What you don't see on Amazon is the buying habits of people outside the USA.

As opposed to the dpreview 'data' you provided, which doesn't show anyone buying anything anywhere.

 

[Loswr]

No, it shows what cameras people are interested in. People are no longer as interested in looking at or reading about Canon cameras as they used to be.

At least for the past five days. :

Based on data from Canon and Nikon themselves, people are buying more Canon dSLRs. If 'interest' doesn't translate to sales, who cares (well, we all know you do, at least as long as Canon is ranked lower on some sort of list, somewhere on the Internet).

 

[jrista]

What you don't see on Amazon is the buying habits of people outside the USA.

As opposed to the dpreview 'data' you provided, which doesn't show anyone buying anything anywhere.

No, it shows what cameras people are interested in. People are no longer as interested in looking at or reading about Canon cameras as they used to be.

Interested in in a five day span of time. Canon hasn't released anything in the last five days...so why would they be in that DPR list? When Canon releases something, especially something big, people will show interest.

 

[Loswr]

Based on data from Canon and Nikon themselves, people are buying more Canon dSLRs. If 'interest' doesn't translate to sales, who cares (well, we all know you do, at least as long as Canon is ranked lower on some sort of list, somewhere on the Internet).

The thing is, we don't know what the sales data is for any website other than Amazon and not everyone buys from or through Amazon.

Try reading Canon's and Nikon's quarterly reports, or if that's too difficult, just read that part in red one more time.

 

[Woody]

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

Yes, that's where I normally visit for a rough gauge of interest level. And I usually take a peek once a week. Same goes for DPReview/Imaging Resource most-clicked cameras and BCNRanking.

All indicators show one CONSISTENT trend: dropping level of interest in Canon DSLRs. Point of reference? Just a couple of years ago, Canon DSLRs used to hog the various charts. Amazon bestselling DSLRs, BCNRanking, DPReview/Imaging Resource most clicked cameras etc etc. Even newly released cameras have great difficulties in dislodging the Canon DRebel or DRebel XT from the top of the most-clicked camera lists on DPReview/Imaging Resource.

It's true that Canon has not lost its lead in worldwide market shares for interchangeable cameras. But if the above trend persists and starts to grow in other parts of the world, Canon will surely lose their lead to Nikon. It's already happening in some parts of the world...

This is not exactly a bad thing. Canon will be forced to make some drastic improvements instead of plodding slowly along...

 

[jrista]

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

Yes, that's where I normally visit for a rough gauge of interest level. And I usually take a peek once a week. Same goes for DPReview/Imaging Resource most-clicked cameras and BCNRanking.

All indicators show one CONSISTENT trend: dropping level of interest in Canon DSLRs. Point of reference? Just a couple of years ago, Canon DSLRs used to hog the various charts. Amazon bestselling DSLRs, BCNRanking, DPReview/Imaging Resource most clicked cameras etc etc. Even newly released cameras have great difficulties in dislodging the Canon DRebel or DRebel XT from the top of the most-clicked camera lists on DPReview/Imaging Resource.

It's true that Canon has not lost its lead in worldwide market shares for interchangeable cameras. But if the above trend persists and starts to grow in other parts of the world, Canon will surely lose their lead to Nikon. It's already happening in some parts of the world...

This is not exactly a bad thing. Canon will be forced to make some drastic improvements instead of plodding slowly along...

It was exactly a couple of years ago when Canon was paper releasing, or announcing the release of, the 5D III and 1D X. It is, therefor, not surprising that interest in Canon equipment began to peak around that time. Official releases came about a year later, which also coincides with peaking of interest in Canon equipment.

Other brands release on different schedules. Nikon seems to be releasing something all the time. Sony has had a few compelling releases lately. Therefor, it is again no surprise that interest in those brands is peaking now, or has sustained a moderately higher level of interest lately.

Canon has not had any major releases lately. The announcement of a white paint job on a preexisting camera doesn't count as a major "release", or even a minor one...it's non-interesting outside of the initial scope of the announcement. When Canon releases a 7D II, or the big mp camera, interest will once again peak, those cameras will be reviewed, and tested, and compared and discussed at great length. IQ and DR and megapixels will all become the heart of heated debates day in and day out...probably for the span of a year. After that, people will lose interest...and get back to more productive things...like making photographs with the 7D II they so hotly debated.

Brands of physical equipment exist in cyclical markets. They don't have the option of controversially eliminating discrete products and product releases in favor of perpetual improvement schemes for unreasonably priced, recurring, perpetual fees like Adobe and the rest of the software world. Every brand has it's ebb and flow, its peaks and luls, it's oscillations. Canon had their peak, and have entered a lul. They will have another peak in a year or two, and another, and another, ad inf.

 

[Woody]

Every brand has it's ebb and flow, its peaks and luls, it's oscillations. Canon had their peak, and have entered a lul. They will have another peak in a year or two, and another, and another, ad inf.

I know what you are saying and I wish that is the case, but clearly it is not.

When the DRebel and XT were released, they stayed on top of bestselling and most-clicked camera charts for as long as they were available. That is not happening now. Clearly, the Nikon D7100 and D3200 are NOT new releases, but they are generating more interest than Canon 70D and 700D/100D.

Anyway, let's see how Canon responds in 2014. I'm hoping for more breakthrough (like dual pixel AF) and breathtaking (like the Sony 24 MP APS-C sensor) products. But at the moment, I just want to purchase the 50 f/1.8 IS and 16-50 f/4 IS as soon as they are announced.

 

[jrista]

Every brand has it's ebb and flow, its peaks and luls, it's oscillations. Canon had their peak, and have entered a lul. They will have another peak in a year or two, and another, and another, ad inf.

I know what you are saying and I wish that is the case, but clearly it is not.

When the DRebel and XT were released, they stayed on top of bestselling and most-clicked camera charts for as long as they were available. That is not happening now. Clearly, the Nikon D7100 and D3200 are NOT new releases, but they are generating more interest than Canon 70D and 700D/100D.

Anyway, let's see how Canon responds in 2014. I'm hoping for more breakthrough (like dual pixel AF) and breathtaking (like the Sony 24 MP APS-C sensor) products. But at the moment, I just want to purchase the 50 f/1.8 IS and 16-50 f/4 IS as soon as they are announced.

I totally agree about the D7100/D3200 vs. 70D/700D. I've mentioned it before, even in this thread...Canon's interim DSLR releases, as well as the EOS-M2, have lacked any "compelling" features. It's been that way for years...with yearly releases of Rebel cameras that differed in the most minute ways, all with "the same old damnable 18mp sensor", its to be expected that those cameras won't create a lot of interest. The 70D seems to have peaked interest with it's DPAF. (I'd also point out that it was only this year that Canon entry level DSLR sales started to level off or drop...so it isn't like this has been occurring for years...it is a VERY new development...and it is occuring alongside weak and weakening sales numbers for mirrorless cameras from Canon's competitors as well. There is clearly a significant market factor for this decline in sales, and I honestly don't think it has anything to do with competition or features...its fundamentally economic, particularly in Europe and the US, where the average wage for middle and upper middle class families has been plumeting, sucking up disposable income along with it, thanks to continued economic recession (people may be working, but they are working harder and earning far less on average.))

In general, though, I was thinking about Canon's major releases. The professional line, the xD series cameras. That is the true battleground, where the most significant and meaningful innovations are made, and which serve the most use. The xxxD and xxD lines from Canon, the Dxxxx and Dxxx lines from Nikon, and a number of Sony offerings fill the consumer niche. In that niche, every single camera on the market is leaps and bounds more capable than any novice or family photographer could possibly need. Competition in that segment seems almost moot.

 

[Ruined]

dilbert, are you trolling?

If not, one of the worst arguments I have ever read with most ridiculous "data" to back it up. lol.

 

[Loswr]

Without wanting to be condescending, had you of been watching websites such as dpreview for longer then you'd know that Canon's "peak" was not short, rather it lasted some number of years, maybe even as many as 5 and that it spanned the entire gamut of Canon cameras.

So, dpreview suggests that more people are looking at other brands more often now, but the sales data show that more people are still buying Canon. I guess that means they look at other brands, but don't like what they see… Judging by the ratings on Amazon.com, it seems that people who choose Canon are much happier with their purchases, as well.

 

[unfocused]

In the past, Canon was always well represented in the top 10 regardless of how recent the announcements were.

Is this something you keep data on, or is that just how you remember it?

Because if it's just your memory, it's more likely to be selective.

Look, the point that people consistently make here is that regardless of how a tiny fraction of tech-obsessed individuals may feel about what they perceive as Canon's "falling behind" their competition, there is zero evidence that this alleged technology gap has had any impact on sales. In fact, what evidence that is available points in exactly the opposite direction.

Canon's domination of the full frame market is probably the most significant market development out there. I know you don't like the Amazon best sellers, but they are the world's largest retailer and there simply isn't any other comparable source available. I would love it if B&H, Adorama, Digital Rev and others would publish their sales rankings, but they don't. So we have to go with what is available (and recognize that it is consistent with the sales figures reported by Canon and Nikon).

I just checked a few minutes ago. Canon's 5DIII body and their 6D kit are in the top 10; the 6D body and the 5DIII kit are in the top 20. You have to drop down to #39 this morning to find a Nikon full frame on the list (the DF). It's absolutely front-page news that a camera body that lists for more than $3,000 can be outselling $500 cameras. And, it's equally newsworthy that they are significantly outselling a newly released, highly anticipated and much-hyped camera.

Being disappointed or frustrated with a company is perfectly fine (although one shouldn't take it to such extremes). But trying to extrapolate some sort of death spiral for the company from your personal frustration when all evidence points in the opposite direction isn't rational.

 

[jrista]

What you don't see on Amazon is the buying habits of people outside the USA.

As opposed to the dpreview 'data' you provided, which doesn't show anyone buying anything anywhere.

No, it shows what cameras people are interested in. People are no longer as interested in looking at or reading about Canon cameras as they used to be.

Interested in in a five day span of time. Canon hasn't released anything in the last five days...so why would they be in that DPR list? When Canon releases something, especially something big, people will show interest.

In the past, Canon was always well represented in the top 10 regardless of how recent the announcements were.

You would need to back that up with actual data, because that is not what I remember.

I would also point out that currently, and for the last several days, the top four cameras on that list were all released recently, within the last few months. The average distribution of the rest is 2.3%. An average of 2.3% of searches are made for the top items on the list that are not very recently new cameras. Of ALL the cameras in the world, fully three are still Canon, and all were released some time ago. No matter how you slice it, Canon still has the majority representation on the DPR list. As they always have. Imagine how that list will look when Canon releases the 7D II. Imagine how it will look when the rumors about the 7D II start to get more solid. That major representation of 3/10 will jump...to 4/10, 5/10. When a major new camera from Canon hits the shelves, and people exit "waiting mode" and start evaluating which Canon camera to buy again, I'd bet Canon once again takes over the majority of that list...until the fervor dies out and people finish making their decisions. Then, well, then once again the list will be dominated by the most recent releases, from whatever brand is releasing.