Don't Forget, The EOS M10 Replacement is Coming Soon

[Canon Rumors Guy]

We know about the 4 lenses that Canon is going to announce soon (we’re not sure on the exact date yet), and along with those lenses, we’ll be seeing the replacement to the Canon EOS M10 being announced. We’re not sure if it’s going to be called “EOS M20” or not. Expect specifications that are similar to the EOS M6/SL2 in a small form factor.</p>

<p>Nokishita has <a href="https://twitter.com/nokishita_c/status/897400603105611776">confirmed the EH31-FJ face jackets</a> for the EOS M10 successor are on their way. It looks like you’re going to get 9 color options.</p>
<p>There has been no mention of any new EF-M lenses coming alongside the new EOS M camera, but there’s a chance that could change.</p>
<p>We haven’t heard anything definitive about a new prosumer PowerShot camera(s) coming.</p>
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[-1]

Hmmm.... Facejackets! Looks like Nokia did make a mark for themselves after all! )

 

[rrcphoto]

We know about the 4 lenses that Canon is going to announce soon

there's still alot of puzzling things about what's coming up.

- what is going on with the M20.. havent really heard a sniff and it's coming in a week?
- the T7 is also coming out (when?)
- what was the 3 lenses in a series that came from Malaysia? colors of existing lenses? there's no way that the TS-E's are coming there.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Expect specifications that are similar to the EOS M6/SL2 in a small form factor.

I'm guessing it gets the M3's sensor (24 MP, no DPAF).

 

[ahsanford]

Expect specifications that are similar to the EOS M6/SL2 in a small form factor.

I'm guessing it gets the M3's sensor (24 MP, no DPAF, no on-chip ADC).

+1 (with my edit for emphasis -- the M3 was pre-80D architecture, right?).

Could you imagine a $600-ish camera body getting the on-chip ADC / base ISO DR hotness the 6D2 was not given?

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

Expect specifications that are similar to the EOS M6/SL2 in a small form factor.

I'm guessing it gets the M3's sensor (24 MP, no DPAF, no on-chip ADC).

+1 (with my edit for emphasis -- the M3 was pre-80D architecture, right?).

Could you imagine a $600-ish camera body getting the on-chip ADC / base ISO DR hotness the 6D2 was not given?

- A

how do we know that the 6D2 does not have on sensor ADC?

that's a bad assumption. People all of a sudden turned into sensor design engineers. CDS has far more bearing on low ISO noise than where the location of the ADC is. you don't think it's possible to have noise free ADC's off chip? How in the world does the rest of the world convert analog to digital with a high degree of precision?

Regardless, the SL2 at $549 got one generation of the chip that seems to be the same as the M5/M6,etc. Hard not to think the M20 will get the same.

the 6D is meaningless in this conversation, it's a full frame sensor with it's own costs completely different than a APS-C body.

 

[mustafa]

G5 X Mk II, please.

 

[rrcphoto]

G5 X Mk II, please.

that and a G3X II are missing for sure.

IMO, G3XII needs the DIGIC 7 upgrade more to get it's fps reasonable.

 

[ahsanford]

how do we know that the 6D2 does not have on sensor ADC?

that's a bad assumption. People all of a sudden turned into sensor design engineers. CDS has far more bearing on low ISO noise than where the location of the ADC is. you don't think it's possible to have noise free ADC's off chip? How in the world does the rest of the world convert analog to digital with a high degree of precision?

Forgive me -- I'm no EE. I thought our Photons to Photos sensor tester stated the 'hockey stick' style DR vs. ISO curve was indicative of off-chip architecture, while the more straight DR trend on the low ISO was indicative of on-chip behavior. If that's coincidentally true but not categorically so, please straighten me out.

We haven't seen a 6D2 teardown that confirms our assumptions, of course.

Are you saying the 6D2 moved to on-chip architecture yet it still seems to test like one that has an off-chip architecture? In absence of a teardown, is that a reasonable conclusion based on the testing we've seen? Or are you simply saying the jury is still out on this until you see a teardown?

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

Are you saying the 6D2 moved to on-chip architecture yet it still seems to test like one that has an off-chip architecture?

we can see the results from the T6i/M3 generation, the 80D generation and the M5 all are available on DxO and all show different DR curves.

the M5 is around 1EV less at low ISO than the 80D.

I trust DxO only when comparing the same brand of camera. since the raw data can be interpreted a multitude of ways. However it's all we got.

All of them have some form of more advanced sensor configuration because we have pictures of the T6i and 80D sensor to compare.

So we really don't know until someone does a teardown of the 6D to know, and even then we may not.

ADC implementation is hardly it. Exmor doesn't get it's low noise characteristics from ADC's - it gets it from correlated double sampling the information twice. before and after digital conversion.

this btw, is the t6i / M3 sensor:

 

[eosuser1234]

I don't think Canon will put out any more M product without DPAF. It just puts them behind the competition from the get go in terms of Autofocus speed. A large portion of the M product is supposed to be for Japanese moms taking photos of kids. For years, Canon and its KISS series was aimed at these mothers. Nearly 90% of Canon marketing for the KISS series was aimed at those moms. If they want to start pushing M product on those active moms who want a smaller camera, then they will need DPAF to stay competitive with M4/3 competition. Being APS-C it is much better than M4/3, but the average camera sales man at BIC or Yodobashi is faced with the situation everyday. Parents walk into store, "hi, i want a camera to shoot photos of my kids. My friend said mirrorless is good. I have no idea why, I just want to take photos of my kid in focus." Gets recommended a Panasonic or Sony. If Canon wants to be recommended, they need to step up their AF in their mirrorless. Until the M5 and M6, they were not recommended by store staff, I know because I asked at different stores multiple times. They all said, focus speed is slow, worse than others. 他のと比べるとAFが全然遅い。

 

[neuroanatomist]

Until the M5 and M6, they were not recommended by store staff, I know because I asked at different stores multiple times. They all said, focus speed is slow, worse than others.

Yet somehow, in spite of that, Canon managed to become #2 in the MILC market before the M5/M6.

 

[jolyonralph]

The M20 (or whatever it will have) will have exactly the same sensor as the M5/M6/80D,etc

It will be differentiated by slower FPS, lack of flash hotshoe (and most importantly, lack of any EVF capability), smaller buffer and slightly smaller dimensions.

 

[neuroanatomist]

The M20 (or whatever it will have) will have exactly the same sensor as the M5/M6/80D,etc

It will be differentiated by slower FPS, lack of flash hotshoe (and most importantly, lack of any EVF capability), smaller buffer and slightly smaller dimensions.

We'll see. The M10 got the older sensor compared to the M3, and that's the closest comparison to the M100 vs. M6.

If the M100 does get the M5/M6/80D sensor, I'll have a tougher decision. I am planning on buying the M6, but I'd prefer the smaller physical size of the M100 if there's relatively little differentiation.

 

[eosuser1234]

Until the M5 and M6, they were not recommended by store staff, I know because I asked at different stores multiple times. They all said, focus speed is slow, worse than others.

Yet somehow, in spite of that, Canon managed to become #2 in the MILC market before the M5/M6.

It is one thing to force product on retailers, and it is another to sell through based pure demand. The M, M2, and M3 all had placement in lots of retail shops in Japan, more often in not done by Canon through their larger retail partners on some sort of consignment type terms, that would explain the original M going on a fire sale overseas once product was returned. Often times, Canon asks favors to the larger retailers to take product on consignment, or the larger shops sell Canon the floor space, and Canon merchandises the space as they want. I have seen a total of 6 eos M series cameras on people out in the wild in 5 years since the M came out. That compares with probably 10,000 of Canon DSLRs, and hundreds of Lumix, Sony, and Pen mirrorless I have seen. I am an M owner and love the system, but it is flawed, and Canon and the retailers in Japan know it.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Until the M5 and M6, they were not recommended by store staff, I know because I asked at different stores multiple times. They all said, focus speed is slow, worse than others.

Yet somehow, in spite of that, Canon managed to become #2 in the MILC market before the M5/M6.

It is one thing to force product on retailers, and it is another to sell through based pure demand. The M, M2, and M3 all had placement in lots of retail shops in Japan, more often in not done by Canon through their larger retail partners on some sort of consignment type terms, that would explain the original M going on a fire sale overseas once product was returned. Often times, Canon asks favors to the larger retailers to take product on consignment, or the larger shops sell Canon the floor space, and Canon merchandises the space as they want. I have seen a total of 6 eos M series cameras on people out in the wild in 5 years since the M came out. That compares with probably 10,000 of Canon DSLRs, and hundreds of Lumix, Sony, and Pen mirrorless I have seen. I am an M owner and love the system, but it is flawed, and Canon and the retailers in Japan know it.

You are welcome to your opinion, of course, even if that opinion is inconsistent with reality. It's ok, some people also believe the world is flat. You can claim retailers aren't recommending the EOS M system and that you don't see them in the wild, but the fact is, they are being purchased in large numbers...even in Japan. Last year, Canon was #2 in MILC market share in Japan, according to BCN (who surveys 2/3 of Japanese retailers).

 

[eosuser1234]

Until the M5 and M6, they were not recommended by store staff, I know because I asked at different stores multiple times. They all said, focus speed is slow, worse than others.

Yet somehow, in spite of that, Canon managed to become #2 in the MILC market before the M5/M6.

It is one thing to force product on retailers, and it is another to sell through based pure demand. The M, M2, and M3 all had placement in lots of retail shops in Japan, more often in not done by Canon through their larger retail partners on some sort of consignment type terms, that would explain the original M going on a fire sale overseas once product was returned. Often times, Canon asks favors to the larger retailers to take product on consignment, or the larger shops sell Canon the floor space, and Canon merchandises the space as they want. I have seen a total of 6 eos M series cameras on people out in the wild in 5 years since the M came out. That compares with probably 10,000 of Canon DSLRs, and hundreds of Lumix, Sony, and Pen mirrorless I have seen. I am an M owner and love the system, but it is flawed, and Canon and the retailers in Japan know it.

You are welcome to your opinion, of course, even if that opinion is inconsistent with reality. It's ok, some people also believe the world is flat. You can claim retailers aren't recommending the EOS M system and that you don't see them in the wild, but the fact is, they are being purchased in large numbers...even in Japan. Last year, Canon was #2 in MILC market share in Japan, according to BCN (who surveys 2/3 of Japanese retailers).

My opinion is based on a few things, not just the fact that I think the world is flat.
Sales numbers don't always mean sales in Japan. Talk to any sales manager at any major international company (including Japanese company) about Japanese large retail chains. Product is always coming back, and moved around. It is on wheels and a constant consignment game especially if a brand like Canon is trying to get market share. Despite what BCN says, I see a different reality.
Some info:
Amazon Japan sales ranking. One Canon (M3 Lens kit) ranked 5th in top 10 ranking.
Amazon Japan wanted item ranking. One Canon (M10 Lens kit white) ranked 7 out of top 20.
Amazon Japan gift ranking. Not one Canon in top 10, and only shows up in at 13.
Amazon Japan product review numbers for Canon M series are way lower compared to Panasonic, Sony, or Olympus.

Rakuten Japan Sales ranking (weekly). ranked 9th (EOS M6 Silver dual lens kit) and 14th M10 double lens kit white. 2 canon, 4 Panasonic, 2 Nikon, 6 Olympus, 6 Sony in the top 20.

If you look at Yodobashi online product reviews, you see Canon M products number of reviews are also low almost always in low single digits. From the review numbers, I just don't feel that Yodobashi Camera is pushing a lot of mirrorless product out the doors. Sony, Panasonic, and Olympus Mirrorless all with much more reviews.

I have personally heard at both Bic and Yodobashi sales staff saying Canon had the worst focus speed on multiple times in discussion about mirrorless cameras.