Canon EOS R5 Mark II to arrive before EOS R1? [CR2]

[koenkooi]

I agree with you. I started to think of Canon Eos R8 as the second body (which does not tire a bit of budget). The thing that bothered me about this camera and made it difficult for me to decide was the battery preference. Of course, there are reasons for this, but if there was a body with an LP-E6NH battery, its sales rates would increase significantly.

Would they really? It seems that demand will vastly outstrip supply for the R8 the first half of this year, and likely continue during summer. I don't see how Canon could significantly increase sales on their popular bodies when they have trouble making enough of them.

Apart from than, what would you think of an R7 body, with the R8 sensor?

 

[Maximilian]

...
Apart from than, what would you think of an R7 body, with the R8 sensor?

I would call that an R6 II, wouldn't you? Almost the same size...

 

[EOS 4 Life]

I don't see how Canon could significantly increase sales on their popular bodies when they have trouble making enough of them.

I quite agree.
People said the same thing about the R3.
Canon has finally caught up with demand and lowered the price.
Arguably, Nikon underpriced the Z 9 since people are still waiting for them and they sold for much more than MSRP on secondary markets.

 

[neuroanatomist]

…if there was a body with an LP-E6NH battery, its sales rates would increase significantly.

You should tell Canon, clearly they are clueless on these matters and I’m sure they’d love to hear how much more you personally know about how to make and sell cameras than they do. Sure, they’ve led the ILC market for two decades, but you know better.

 

[entoman]

I doubt it. But if true, and it has a 1-series form factor…

View attachment 207779

R1 would be too much camera for me, in terms of money, bulk, weight and features that I don't and never will need. I don't think I'd be tempted by an R5s - the extra resolution would be useful in some situations, but certainly not essential to me.

I'd be extremely surprised if the R5s has 1-series form factor.

 

[entoman]

I think it may be possible that the long awaited R5s and R1 are the same camera?

That is, the R1 will be the high resolution monster leaving the R3 as the more sports/photojournalism oriented model.

I think the R5s will be aimed at the same market as the 5DsR, i.e. studio, fashion, product, architecture and landscape photographers (and those who habitually indulge in very heavy cropping). None of those sectors would want/need a gripped body. I'd expect the same form factor as the R5.

The R3 is the current choice for PJ and sports (wildlife photographers tend to prefer the R5 from my limited observations) and will remain as the "affordable flagship" and professional workhorse.

Given how good the R3 is, and how much extra a R1 would cost, I'm puzzled by what the later might offer, that could be justified economically by potential purchasers. It's quite feasible that Canon have put the R1 on hold, and will only release it after a lot more necessary development. The Nikon z9 is a *very* difficult act to follow, and there is also a possibility that Sony could launch a true professional gripped body.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I'd be extremely surprised if the R5s has 1-series form factor.

I’m sure it wouldn’t. I believe what @Michael Clark was suggesting is that the R1 will have a very high MP sensor, and that there will be no R5s. His hypothetical R1 would have a slower frame rate, i.e., Canon returning to the 1D / 1Ds paradigm, but with the R3 filling the 1D role.

Personally, I think the R1 will still be a ‘fast’ camera. The only way I can see it being high MP is if they do what Apple did with the main camera on the iPhone 14 Pro, e.g., a 96 MP sensor with a quad-Bayer CFA that can bin down to a 24 MP true RAW image at much higher fps.

 

[entoman]

I’m sure it wouldn’t. I believe what @Michael Clark was suggesting is that the R1 will have a very high MP sensor, and that there will be no R5s. His hypothetical R1 would have a slower frame rate, i.e., Canon returning to the 1D / 1Ds paradigm, but with the R3 filling the 1D role.

Personally, I think the R1 will still be a ‘fast’ camera. The only way I can see it being high MP is if they do what Apple did with the main camera on the iPhone 14 Pro, e.g., a 96 MP sensor with a quad-Bayer CFA that can bin down to a 24 MP true RAW image at much higher fps.

Aside from the sheer pleasure of owning and using "the best", what do you think the R1 would offer you personally for your own types of work, that would truly "make a difference" or open up new avenues that you'd like to pursue?

 

[koenkooi]

I would call that an R6 II, wouldn't you? Almost the same size...

Almost, the R6II has the extra centimeter at the bottom for a pinky finger to rest on. The R7 and RP lack that.

Here’s an R7 with an extra grip in my hand:

 

[koenkooi]

Unless Canon calls the processor a new name indicating a generational change, we don't have an insight into what changes have been made
The only real comparison we can make is the CIPA numbers being a standardised test for comparison.
50% improvement with the rear screen and ~20% improvement with the viewfinder. A big improvement one way or the other!

R6
With LCD Approx. 510 shots (at 23°C)
With Viewfinder Approx. 380 shots (at 23°C)
R6ii
With LCD Approx. 760 shots (at 23°C)
With Viewfinder Approx. 450 shots (at 23°C)

About twelve and a half minutes in this gets mentioned:

‎Shutter Stories: A Canon Podcast on Photography, Filmmaking and Print: Mastering stills and motion with the Canon EOS R6 Mark II op Apple Podcasts

‎Programma Shutter Stories: A Canon Podcast on Photography, Filmmaking and Print, Afl Mastering stills and motion with the Canon EOS R6 Mark II - 3 nov. 2022

podcasts.apple.com

The Canon person states that the digic X in the R6II is different from the one in the R6 and that they continually change the Digic X.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Aside from the sheer pleasure of owning and using "the best", what do you think the R1 would offer you personally for your own types of work, that would truly "make a difference" or open up new avenues that you'd like to pursue?

Absent knowledge of what will be included, it’s tough to say. I will say that there are times when more MP would be useful for cropping.

Honestly, although I posted the ‘shut up and take my money’ meme, it would take significant improvements to induce me to switch from the R3. A 96 / 24 MP sensor would probably do it. A 30-40 MP sensor with a bump in fps would not. Case in point, after getting the 1D X, neither the 1D X II nor 1D X III offered enough improvement for me to upgrade. And a big part of the R3’s appeal was the RF lenses (and the ability to easily rear filter certain EF lenses).

 

[ata bora]

About twelve and a half minutes in this gets mentioned:

‎Shutter Stories: A Canon Podcast on Photography, Filmmaking and Print: Mastering stills and motion with the Canon EOS R6 Mark II op Apple Podcasts

‎Programma Shutter Stories: A Canon Podcast on Photography, Filmmaking and Print, Afl Mastering stills and motion with the Canon EOS R6 Mark II - 3 nov. 2022

podcasts.apple.com

The Canon person states that the digic X in the R6II is different from the one in the R6 and that they continually change the Digic X.

yes i think so too. The processor writes Digic X, but its content and capabilities are unclear. It is possible to understand this from the firmware file sizes. The file size increases with each new model.

 

[David - Sydney]

I’m sure it wouldn’t. I believe what @Michael Clark was suggesting is that the R1 will have a very high MP sensor, and that there will be no R5s. His hypothetical R1 would have a slower frame rate, i.e., Canon returning to the 1D / 1Ds paradigm, but with the R3 filling the 1D role.

Personally, I think the R1 will still be a ‘fast’ camera. The only way I can see it being high MP is if they do what Apple did with the main camera on the iPhone 14 Pro, e.g., a 96 MP sensor with a quad-Bayer CFA that can bin down to a 24 MP true RAW image at much higher fps.

The 1 series have tended to have dual processors. This would provide the processor bandwidth compared to the current R5/R3 Digic X limits.
Assuming that parallel processing can be done and thermal load spread across a 1 series body then on-the-fly binning or raw sensor output could be possible.
Taking the 1DXiii's 16pfs mechanical shutter and 40fps electronic shutter with no bit depth penalty and the Z9 has good competition even at a significantly higher price.
Dual CFe type B cards would be needed to minimise buffer throttling with a high megapixel sensor.

 

[David - Sydney]

Absent knowledge of what will be included, it’s tough to say. I will say that there are times when more MP would be useful for cropping.

I am significantly cropping all the time with underwater shooting - hard to change lenses at the time
Cropping when using macro underwater is particularly useful as nailing the focus can be hard. Significant cropping with narrow depth of field is needed for the in-focus area especially for abstract macros. Finding very small critters that were inadvertently in the frame that I didn't realise at the time is fungi the tiny crab with the donut nudibranch and the something (not sure what it is) in the starfish abstract macro

It would be hard for me to go back to a lower mp body now.

 

[entoman]

The 1 series have tended to have dual processors. This would provide the processor bandwidth compared to the current R5/R3 Digic X limits.
Assuming that parallel processing can be done and thermal load spread across a 1 series body then on-the-fly binning or raw sensor output could be possible.
Taking the 1DXiii's 16pfs mechanical shutter and 40fps electronic shutter with no bit depth penalty and the Z9 has good competition even at a significantly higher price.
Dual CFe type B cards would be needed to minimise buffer throttling with a high megapixel sensor.

I agree with your comments.

Canon are masters of marketing. They probably realise/believe that most potential buyers of the R1 will already own either a R5 or a R3, and that they'll already be deeply committed to the R system, owning some pretty expensive glass. So they'll probably figure that they can get away with charging around $1500-2000 more than they charge for the R3.

 

[David - Sydney]

Canon are masters of marketing. They probably realise/believe that most potential buyers of the R1 will already own either a R5 or a R3, and that they'll already be deeply committed to the R system, owning some pretty expensive glass. So they'll probably figure that they can get away with charging around $1500-2000 more than they charge for the R3.

I would also add that current users of 1DXiii would probably make the switch to the R1/R mount when released. This would be ~4 year lifecycle from the Feb-2020 ship date of the mark iii. I would imagine that 1DXii users would have moved to R3.

For the pricing question, the current rebate on R3 would help put a reasonable gap/segmentation for the R5/3/1. Canon won't chase Nikon's Z9 pricing though. The A1 is already 2 years since its shipping date.

USD3900 R5ii comes out at the original price of R5
USD5600 R3 current price with rebates
USD6500 R1 same as 1DXiii on release and Sony A1

Those 3 plus the R6ii are pretty compelling offers from Canon for the top end of bodies!

 

[neuroanatomist]

I am significantly cropping all the time with underwater shooting - hard to change lenses at the time

I haven’t done underwater shooting yet, but my oldest child is currently getting PADI certified so I plan to give it a go this summer. I considered getting a housing for my M6II, but decided to start with something simpler instead, and ordered a housing for my iPhone. With that, I can change lenses underwater (well, technically switch between 3 cameras).

 

[David - Sydney]

I haven’t done underwater shooting yet, but my oldest child is currently getting PADI certified so I plan to give it a go this summer. I considered getting a housing for my M6II, but decided to start with something simpler instead, and ordered a housing for my iPhone. With that, I can change lenses underwater (well, technically switch between 3 cameras).

Gopro (with external gopro housing) should be everyone's first choice as video "tends" to be easier underwater until you work out the staying alive underwater bit first. Stills on a gopro are pretty average though.

A bunch of options for phone housings - at least for snorkeling depths eg https://aquatech.net/collections/axisgo

Less options for scuba depths ie >10m. The hard part about phone housings is the myriad sizes and touch screen functionality. Generic size ones means that you don't have to change the housing with a new phone.

Kracken has a USD400 generic one https://krakensports.ca/product/universal-smartphone-housing-krh08-v2/
It uses blue tooth mechanical buttons and their custom app for settings and trigger the shutter.
Shoot raw and ignore the red filter unless you are shooting video.
Vacuum port is very useful to check the o-ring seal (piece of mind).
Has some dive computer (temperature/depth/time/compass) but no decompression calculations.
Add a tray for stability and lights to bring back the colour under 10m and the "investment" starts adding up

Moving to an Ikelite housing for the M6ii is USD775 + additional port/dome etc for the lens(es) you want to use. Add a tray/handles (USD150) and vacuum (USD195).... You can see how the add-ons accumulate until you wonder if you should not have got the housing for your main camera.

The biggest (if you pardon the pun) difference is the oversize with the M6ii. Easier to transport/carry and maneuver underwater.... People can get closer to subjects with a gorpro than my underwater rig.
Of course, ensure that you watch your air consumption, depth and decompression times and keep with your buddy ie stay alive

 

[neuroanatomist]

Gopro (with external gopro housing) should be everyone's first choice as video "tends" to be easier underwater until you work out the staying alive underwater bit first. Stills on a gopro are pretty average though.

Makes sense, but no plans to get a GoPro. I definitely plan on shooting video in addition to stills.

A bunch of options for phone housings - at least for snorkeling depths eg https://aquatech.net/collections/axisgo

Less options for scuba depths ie >10m. The hard part about phone housings is the myriad sizes and touch screen functionality. Generic size ones means that you don't have to change the housing with a new phone.

Kracken has a USD400 generic one https://krakensports.ca/product/universal-smartphone-housing-krh08-v2/
It uses blue tooth mechanical buttons and their custom app for settings and trigger the shutter.
Shoot raw and ignore the red filter unless you are shooting video.
Vacuum port is very useful to check the o-ring seal (piece of mind).

I'll be snorkeling but also scuba diving, so I need something that works down to 40 m. I went with the SeaLife housing (similar to the Kraken in that it's also generic and uses an app to control the phone via bluetooth). Has a vacuum port, self test, moisture sensor inside, etc. The SeaLife app seems to be updated pretty frequently and the developer is quite responsive in the comments, that's always a good sign.

Add a tray for stability and lights to bring back the colour under 10m and the "investment" starts adding up
Moving to an Ikelite housing for the M6ii is USD775 + additional port/dome etc for the lens(es) you want to use. Add a tray/handles (USD150) and vacuum (USD195).... You can see how the add-ons accumulate until you wonder if you should not have got the housing for your main camera.

The biggest (if you pardon the pun) difference is the oversize with the M6ii. Easier to transport/carry and maneuver underwater.... People can get closer to subjects with a gorpro than my underwater rig.
Of course, ensure that you watch your air consumption, depth and decompression times and keep with your buddy ie stay alive

I'm fortunate that cost is not really a huge concern for me. Ease of use, features, etc. are more important. I tend to shoot manual and change settings frequently on land, and I'd rather not futz with that underwater where there the factors in your last sentence must take precedence.

The other factor for me, and a main reason I went with SeaLife, is they have a very nice ecosystem of lights and trays/arms. The reading I have done suggested that underwater is similar to portraiture in that the lighting is far more important than the camera. Adjusting ILC settings and strobe settings is more than I want to deal with, at least for the time being. As for getting a housing for my main camera, Ikelite doesn't make one for the R3 and it's not clear if they will. Also to that point, I've been told by a couple of experienced underwater photographers that, "There are two types of underwater photographers – those who have had a housing flood, and those who will have a housing flood." If I decide to use an ILC for diving, I'd likely get a housing for the R8 (Ikelite is already planning to make one, and I have the R8 on preorder).

In addition to the smartphone housing, I got a pair of 3000 lumen flood lights (dual function, with a 1500 lumen spot in addition to the flood). I also picked up SeaLife's blue fluorescent excitation source. I have done fluorescent microscopy for three decades, so that's an aspect of marine life I'm interested to explore. The diver/physicist who collaborated with SeaLife on the fluorescent light head makes a nice custom snap-on yellow filter for the housing (to filter out reflected excitation light) that I'll swap out for the red filter.

If I do eventually move to a MILC in an Ikelite housing, the SeaLife gear can be adapted to work with it.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[davidespinosa]

The processor writes Digic X, but its content and capabilities are unclear. It is possible to understand this from the firmware file sizes. The file size increases with each new model.

What's the relationship between processor architecture and firmware size ? Suppose the processor grows from 10 cores to 20. Do you expect the firmware size to double ?