Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

[tntwit]

so out with the swivel LCD and in with the touch screen? replacing one gimmick by another

Somebody better tell Apple that their iPad is one big touch screen gimmick. You may not have noticed, but the world is going touch screen, including Windows 8.

One of the reasons I'm not using the Kindle Fire (was given to me as a gift) is the touch screen. As example, it appears whomever designed the device didn't think of people with fingers as big as mine, so I can't type a short URL without fixing it at least three times.

As of Apple, the success of their products is no indication of quality, e.g. the brick with tiny B&W screen sold as a portable computer is a good example. If Apple put it's logo on it, the fanboys would buy petrified dog S___ as a premium air freshener.

The Kindle Fire has fewer sensors than other devices which makes it less precise (from what I'm told). We bought one for my mother in-law and as much as I like it, it is not always as responsive as you would like. Like anything else, quality varies, but a touch screen doesn't have to be bad and many are not.

Regarding the comment about those with limited vision, my Panasonic has a touch screen, but the buttons are redundant so you are not required to use the screen. Further, the implementation may be tricky, but there are standards for designing web pages for those with disabilities for use with such things as screen readers. Maybe this (or something similar) is something other devices should be following as well. Even without a touch screen, the navigation through the T3i screen would seemingly be difficult if you cannot see it well, but then maybe once your used to it...?

 

[preppyak]

Don't confuse the Nikon D5100 auto-focus, with a Sony auto-focus. My NEX 5n, using face detection, does a good job of keeping a person in focus as they walk around a room, even at f/2.8. If Sony can do this, why not Canon ???

Well, part of it is that they are different technologies. The way a Canon camera autofocuses for pictures is different than how it does in Live View, and video uses the Live View technology. Canon would have to adapt the SLT technology with a translucent mirror to auto-focus in the exact same way a Sony does. In doing so, they'd give up all the photographic advantages of the mirror, which isn't worth it. Basically, the Nikon autofocus sucks because it doesn't use the focus sensor (due to the mirror being up). I doubt Canon will have solved this in a way that makes it comparable with what sony has in their SLT's, let alone what the FS-700 has.

The FS-700's AF is impressive (though he admitted it makes mistakes that he doesn't show), but, it's also technology from a $10k plus camera...I don't expect Canon to implement that in their Rebel line and have skipped the 5DIII with it.

 

[whatta]

18MP again?. Boring.

I know!

Back in the day, every year was one 35mm camera after another.

BUT when that 37mm camera came out -- WOOOO excitement beyond belief!

here we're talking about resolution, and not about size
back then you could increase the resolution for the same camera with a better film (eg low iso)

 

[dlleno]

and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

Are you suggesting there's a guaranteed deterioration in performance just because 36 is bigger than 12?

And no, I won't quote numbers. I'll just quote the text. ;D

"For equal, normalized SNR, a high-resolution camera is still better than a low-resolution camera. While it is always possible to simulate a low-resolution camera using a higher resolution camera (since downsampling is easy), it is not possible to simulate a high-resolution camera using a lower-resolution camera other than by interpolating or inventing data."
- http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/More-pixels-offset-noise!/Conclusion

and the D800 and D700 are equal in normalized SNR?

 

[Lee Jay]

Compare 36 MP D800 to 12 MP D700. There was a massive 2 stop increase in dynamic range and a massive improvement in high ISO performance as well.

and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

A good bit of it is, yes.

 

[BXL]

Indeed, and Canon just wouldn't put a sensor into the 650d that can outgun the more expensive aps-c bodies. That's why they called it "650d", there will be a 70d with a sensor upgrade and *then* they'll put into a "700d".

Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP). After the 450D, the 50D got a new 15 MP sensor. There is no reason why the 650D shouldn't get a new sensor, which will be later outperformed by the sensor of the 7D2.

 

[Marsu42]

]
Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP). After the 450D, the 50D got a new 15 MP sensor. There is no reason why the 650D shouldn't get a new sensor, which will be later outperformed by the sensor of the 7D2.

I know - but the 18mp sensor has been around for so long, when Canon updates it it's not just another day in the office, thus they'll save it to make some money with it - people will or won't buy the 650d no matter what sensor is in it. The real competition is Nikon, and Canon cannot go to 24mp - so why rock the boat? Another problem with a better sensor in the 650d is that it would cannibalize the 60d which is feature-cut in comparison to the 40d and 50d you cited.

Unlike the 40d/50d days, Canon's problem seems to be that with their current sensor tech, their aps-c design has reached some ceiling with 18mp. If they increase the mp count they'll have to trade it for more noise and less dr even more than 40d->50d. And if they keep it at 18mp the improvement might be as minor as 5d2->5d3.

 

[briansquibb]

Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP).

Funniest comment of the night ;D ;D ;D

 

[preppyak]

The real competition is Nikon, and Canon cannot go to 24mp - so why rock the boat? Another problem with a better sensor in the 650d is that it would cannibalize the 60d which is feature-cut in comparison to the 40d and 50d you cited.

Which is why they'll release a 70D sometime in the early fall with some upgrades to counter that.

There's still be reasons to get the 60D over the T4i (ergonomics, burst rate, button layout, etc)...they'd be the same as the T3i really, with the exception of the auto-focus.

 

[dlleno]

Indeed, and Canon just wouldn't put a sensor into the 650d that can outgun the more expensive aps-c bodies. That's why they called it "650d", there will be a 70d with a sensor upgrade and *then* they'll put into a "700d".

Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP). After the 450D, the 50D got a new 15 MP sensor. There is no reason why the 650D shouldn't get a new sensor, which will be later outperformed by the sensor of the 7D2.

I'm sure you meant 40D=10, and I like you're reasoning -- whether or not Canon does is another matter, to be sure Surely, the 650D sensor will give us the first clue as to what is actually going on in 1.6x land. If there is no new sensor, then its clear that they are sqeezing out whatever additional blood is left in that turnip, and 7D2/XXD should get new ones. 7D was, after all, the first to get the18mp sensor, which subsequently appeared in the 550D and then the 60D. If you review the history, you find there is no rhyme nor reason to which sensors appear in which product lines first. Well -- except that Canon wants to get a lot of life out of the 18MP

I note that the Rebel has already been through two cycles with the same sensor (both 550 and 600), so to me it would be unusual to see a third Rebel refresh with the same sensor -- especially since the Rebels were the last to get this one anyway, and since it is already 3 years old. I get that the Tsunami set things back a ways, but 3 years is a long time especially in Rebel land.

Moreover, it would not be unusual for a new sensor to appear in the Rebel first without first seeing XXD time: the 10.1MP sensor of the 40D first appeared in the 400D. So in that sense, the Rebels can be seen seen as a proving ground for new sensors.

Conversely, it would not be unusual for a new sensor to appear only in the Rebels -- Witness the 450D, at 12MP which was never seen in the xxD line -- XXD went from 8 (30D) to 10 (40D) to 15 (50D). This was a period of time when the MP wars were very hot: The 12MP sensor didn't last very long even in the Rebels, as the the 450D was replaced with the 15MP sensor of the 500D and subequently the 18MP appeared in the 550D

So to me the rapid pace of the MP wars explains a lot that was happening prior to the Tsunami. Post-Tsunami, we ma have some technology maturity and we have recovery from the Tsunami, which is only 14 months old. Sony has certainly signaled their intentions, and Canon will have to follow suit with somethign that grabs attention -- I'd venture to suggest a new APS-C sensor in the Rebel 650D, and because Rebel land is a MP war zone, I think they will bump things up, if only slightly, and even with little or no improvement in ISO/DR beyond software.

of course, this opinion is worth what you paid to read it, and we'll have to wait and see

 

[Marsu42]

There's still be reasons to get the 60D over the T4i (ergonomics, burst rate, button layout, etc)...they'd be the same as the T3i really, with the exception of the auto-focus.

I've got the 60d and am the first one to say it's a nice aps-c body which sadly lacks afma (thanks, Canon!) but runs magic lantern. But if the 650d would have an upgraded sensor the less expensive body would have better iq and less people will be convinced the better ergonomics of the 60d are important enough to justify the price difference.

I'd venture to suggest a new APS-C sensor in the Rebel 650D, and because Rebel land is a MP war zone, I think they will bump things up, if only slightly, and even with little or no improvement in ISO/DR beyond software.

... you're saying his in spite of the different [cr2.5] rumor - courageous

Moreover, it would not be unusual for a new sensor to appear in the Rebel first without first seeing XXD time: the 10.1MP sensor of the 40D first appeared in the 400D. So in that sense, the Rebels can be seen seen as a proving ground for new sensors.

Again, this was a different time when there was more potential left in Canon's aps-c tech for frequent sensor updates and they had less aps-c bodies that could cannibalize each other...

 

[c.d.embrey]

Well, part of it is that they are different technologies. The way a Canon camera autofocuses for pictures is different than how it does in Live View, and video uses the Live View technology. Canon would have to adapt the SLT technology with a translucent mirror to auto-focus in the exact same way a Sony does. In doing so, they'd give up all the photographic advantages of the mirror, which isn't worth it. Basically, the Nikon autofocus sucks because it doesn't use the focus sensor (due to the mirror being up). I doubt Canon will have solved this in a way that makes it comparable with what sony has in their SLT's, let alone what the FS-700 has.

Sorry to tell you, but the NEX 5n does NOT use SLT technology. NO SLT, NO phase detect sensors being built into the imaging sensor like a Nikon J1/V1. The Sony NEX 5n doesn't use any form of phase detect for focusing, none, zip nada.

The NEX 5n uses contrast detect auto-focus, just like the quick focusing Olympus cameras. If Sony, Olympus and Panasonic can build good contrast detect auto-focus, why do you feel that Canon is so incompetent that they couldn't ???

 

[dlleno]

... you're saying his in spite of the different [cr2.5] rumor - courageous

bzzzt! total brain fart thank-you for bringing reality back. I still hope its a new sensor ... and do suggest it would be courageous for Canon to introduce a third generation Rebel with the same sensor, and at some level still interest me how an 18 mp sensor (new or not) says about the MP wars

Again, this was a different time when there was more potential left in Canon's aps-c tech for frequent sensor updates and they had less aps-c bodies that could cannibalize each other...

yea I mentioned that.. pre-tsunami days saw a lot of activity and lots of leap frogging. the point is that there is no historical basis for predicting what Canon will do here in terms of how/when Rebel sensors are introduced relative to xxd.

 

[Lee Jay]

The NEX 5n uses contrast detect auto-focus, just like the quick focusing Olympus cameras. If Sony, Olympus and Panasonic can build good contrast detect auto-focus, why do you feel that Canon is so incompetent that they couldn't ???

"Good contrast detect auto-focus" is like "tasty raw herring". While some might taste better than others, they all still take like dog doo.

 

[Marsu42]

The difference in IQ from the 36MP D800 to the 12MP D700 completely debunks the widely held belief that increasing the MP of a camera must result in lower IQ.

No, the iq-mp correlation is of course "ceteris paribus" as all sane comparisons are.

If you update the sensor tech itsself like Nikon with Sony's exmor, then big leaps are possible as long as the lens delivers the resolution, the latter being more problematic on aps-c. But Canon being stuck with their own tech, it seems only small increases in mp are possible without beginning to loose on the dr or noise side.

 

[stevenrrmanir]

Indeed, and Canon just wouldn't put a sensor into the 650d that can outgun the more expensive aps-c bodies. That's why they called it "650d", there will be a 70d with a sensor upgrade and *then* they'll put into a "700d".

Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP). After the 450D, the 50D got a new 15 MP sensor. There is no reason why the 650D shouldn't get a new sensor, which will be later outperformed by the sensor of the 7D2.

BS dude! The 40D is a 10MP body. The 40D is 10x the better camera for image quality (IQ) than the 450D. I have used both. The 450D is inferior to the 40D in every perspective!

The 650D is a FAIL if the specs are correct! Is this Canon's definition of an "upgrade" looks like? I hope they go the Sony way... they are dragging their feet! I hope Nikon kicks their asses!

 

[briansquibb]

and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

Are you suggesting there's a guaranteed deterioration in performance just because 36 is bigger than 12?

The difference in IQ from the 36MP D800 to the 12MP D700 completely debunks the widely held belief that increasing the MP of a camera must result in lower IQ.

I think the 5DII and 1DS3 put that belief to bed 5 years ago

 

[Woody]

Nikon have (fast) phase detect autofocus working with their mirrorless 1-series cameras.
Canon should be aiming to do the same!

Except that Nikon's phase detect AF works only in very good light. Under slightly lower conditions, they have to fall back on contrast AF which completely falls apart for Nikon:

"The J1 and V1's contrast-detection AF systems, which take over when light levels are too low for effective phase-detection AF (and remember that this is the camera's decision, not the photographer's) are less impressive. Focussing is less positive (AF wobbles quickly around the target rather than locking straight on it) but impressively accurate when it gets a 'lock'. The problem is that even in average interior room light, both cameras struggle to find that lock."
- http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikonv1j1/8

I'll rather have fast and accurate contrast AF all the way.

I am surprised no one ever comments on live view contrast AF in the Canon 5D3. It rocks, it really does! Under VERY low light conditions (f/1.4, 1/40 sec, ISO 25,600), it can lock focus while phase detect hunts and hunts and gives up. In good light, it's VERY fast. A serious step-up from previous Canon contrast AF technology.

If the same contrast AF is implemented in Canon's mirrorless cameras, they'll have a winner on their hands.

 

[Woody]

BS dude! The 40D is a 10MP body. The 40D is 10x the better camera for image quality (IQ) than the 450D. I have used both.

Obviously, you must either be lying to others or trying to deceive yourself.

From http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-Rebel-XSi-450D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx:

"The EOS 40D and the XSi are very close to each other - even though the XSi has a more pixels packed into the same surface area of sensor."

From http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos450d/34:

"The new sensor is superb, and from a resolution point of view puts the EOS 40D to shame without losing any of the high ISO performance that has been Canon's trump card for so long."

Essentially a tie from DXOMark:
Canon 450D low light ISO = 692
Canon 40D low light ISO = 703

Suggest you get your facts right before posting next time

 

[briansquibb]

BS dude! The 40D is a 10MP body. The 40D is 10x the better camera for image quality (IQ) than the 450D. I have used both.

Obviously, you must either be lying to others or trying to deceive yourself.

From http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-Rebel-XSi-450D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx:

"The EOS 40D and the XSi are very close to each other - even though the XSi has a more pixels packed into the same surface area of sensor."

From http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos450d/34:

"The new sensor is superb, and from a resolution point of view puts the EOS 40D to shame without losing any of the high ISO performance that has been Canon's trump card for so long."

Essentially a tie from DXOMark:
Canon 450D low light ISO = 692
Canon 40D low light ISO = 703

Suggest you get your facts right before posting next time

It is not all about low light IQ

DxO scores have lost all credibility, so quoting them is pretty meaningless.

From one that was there - the 450D was not as good a camera as the 40D

Bit like comparing the 600D with the 7D - you just wouldn't go sports shooting with the 600D

Just think that the 40D has more fps than the 5DIII and the low ISO IQ was excellent - would be interesting to compare the RAW files for noise