Canon officially announces the EOS 90D and EOS M6 Mark II

[Joules]

wow a company praising it's own product. we need an outside source. none of that is even close to scientific regarding the image quality and DR except the mention of megapixels

No doubts about that, but these cameras were literally just announced hours ago. Somebody asked why Canon doesn't seem to hype up its IQ if there is a chance we're getting new sensor tech. And I just wanted to point out that they do hype it up. Would they do it if they didn't improve anything? Could be. It might take a while to find out though so this is the best we've got.

 

[Tom W]

The EOS M6 Mark II is a replacement for both the EOS M5 and EOS M6.

I have a feeling that 2 bodies are going to be coming down the pike, perhaps after the holidays or in the spring - the real replacement for the M5 and the real replacement for the 7D2.

And what will those bodies bring? Same/similar sensor to these, but with some tweaks, improved AF, higher FPS, and 24 fps movie mode. Maybe even 50/60 at 4K? Who knows...

A few more tweaks here and there, such as a viewfinder built in on the 5, and a rugged body with very flexible AF system on the 7D3. And like the M6 II and 90D, the M5 II and 7D3 will be similar inside.

Just my opinion. What better time for a 7D replacement than preceding the summer olympics?

 

[c.d.embrey]

At least DPReview reports that they asked Canon about it and apparently the M62 is replacing both the M5 and the M6.

Hopefully this means that there is an EOS R 1.6-Crop-Camera coming soon. I've used EOS SLRs fro since the film-days—it's about time to get rid of the flippy-mirror and sucky-optical viewfinder.

 

[dtaylor]

Logically, it was a definitive decision made by Canon. It seems pretty unlikely that they made that decision because they're malicious, crazy, or stupid.

There's also no guarantee it was a wise decision. I've been in enough business meetings to know that management can often have a blind spot to certain realities. On the face of it, it seems foolish as it's almost certainly a software driven feature.

Flip out screen + 24p would pretty much cement the 90D as THE vlogger/social media camera. This is because while Canon has lagged on 4k everyone else has lagged on ergonomics (flip out screen). A lot of vloggers have stuck with Canon despite being at 1080p because of the simple combination of DPAF+screen. Why not give them exactly what they want? 4k no crop DPAF @ 24p with flippy screen.

The only other thing they could ask for would be IBIS, but that's mitigated by IS glass and the increasing popularity of gimbals.

 

[Kit.]

Flip out screen + 24p would pretty much cement the 90D as THE vlogger/social media camera. This is because while Canon has lagged on 4k everyone else has lagged on ergonomics (flip out screen). A lot of vloggers have stuck with Canon despite being at 1080p because of the simple combination of DPAF+screen. Why not give them exactly what they want? 4k no crop DPAF @ 24p with flippy screen.

Why would vloggers want 24p? Just because someone on the Internet said that they should want it?

What the vast majority of vloggers actually needs is to select "PAL" in the menu if their country has 50Hz as utility frequency and "NTSC" if it's 60Hz.

 

[dtaylor]

The first images I've seen from both camera's look really really good, without having blown them up to 100% yet that is.

Looking at Canon's 80D and 90D portrait samples, along with JP's 90D portrait samples, I would say the bump in MP is worth it. There's a nice gain in sharpness, helping to offset the AA filter, as well as a bump in fine detail. It's impossible to fully judge without an identical scene shot under test conditions, but these shots are a good initial indicator.

I pulled up 6D2 and 5D4 sample files as well, and outside of low light/high ISO I think this 32.5mp sensor is going to compare favorably even with these FF bodies.

Naturally I also opened Canon's 5Ds portrait sample along with a couple of my own shots. I know that it doesn't matter for Instagram and likely would go unnoticed at common print sizes like 16x20, but...5Ds files feel like MFDB files. I don't own a Credo 80 but I have some Credo 80 portrait files on my drive and the 5Ds files feel like they belong next to the Credo 80 files.

It's astonishing how far digital IQ has come. Without question this APS-C sized 32.5mp sensor could be passed off as MF film back in, say, the late 1990s.

 

[preppyak]

Why would vloggers want 24p? Just because someone on the Internet said that they should want it?

Because the difference in look between 24p and 30p is noticeable, and our eyes have largely been trained to see 24p as "film" or "professional" and 30p as "video". There's a lot more factors that go into it than that (lighting, lens choice, etc) of course...but leaving off an obvious feature with no obvious reason doesnt strike me as smart.

From a workflow perspective, losing 24p is kind of a big deal since it is standard. It'd be like Canon leaving off a major photo feature (think AI-Servo or dropping M exposure and only giving Tv and Av)...and then having people tell you you should buy a 1DX to use it if its so important to you. When literally every other competitor offers that mode at that price point.

 

[dtaylor]

Why would vloggers want 24p? Just because someone on the Internet said that they should want it?

For the same reason that someone spends a small fortune on a f/1.2 lens or a MFDB. Or in the case of vloggers an expensive gimbal or microphone. Quality. They want the look. And while it's a subtle difference between 30p and 24p it is a noticeable difference.

So why not just give them what they want since it's a firmware change? I don't think Canon deserves hell for "failing" to make the 90D a 7D3 on steroids, even though I understand the disappointment of 7D2 owners who don't expect an upgrade. But Canon does deserve hell for leaving out 24p.

 

[TrubadorPhotography]

Only talking about me on this issue... but any video features in the 90D are just a bonus. So, the Full HD/4K without 24p is not a deal breaker.

I just looked at the 80D video specs from Canon's website, and what it has is: 1920 x 1080 (Full HD): 30 fps (29.97 fps) / 24 fps (23.98 fps).

The fact that there is no Full HD 1920x1080 at 24p on the 90D is a bit surprising giving that it was there in the 80D.

But, complaining that there's no 4K 24p is a completely different argument. The 80D doesn't even have 4K. And the 7Dii only offers 4K in 30p. IMHO, it appears that 4K 24p is being reserved for higher end (FF sensor) cameras.

I wonder, though, if at least the Full HD 1920 x 1080 at 24p can be an easy firmware update from Canon down the line. :shrug:

 

[Sharlin]

I did a proper scientific experiment using RAWs published by various sources. Lightroom opens 90D CR3's without problems, which is nice.

Now, it is well-known that any properly prepared IQ test specimen should be underexposed at least five stops, and my sources have apparently failed in this task. All the photos I've found are more or less well-exposed. So we must settle for the next best thing and just pick a photo with shadows as deep as possible. After some deliberation I chose this one.

Consider first Specimen A, an unprocessed upper left corner crop of the aforementioned picture.

As is known, the next step is to open the file in Lightroom and push the shadows slider all the way to 100, resulting in Specimen B:

This is clearly not enough, so next we shall produce Specimen C by adjusting exposure by +2 EV:

We're still seeing too much detail, and banding or fixed pattern noise is inconveniently absent. Let's push another two EV for Specimen D:

At shadows +100, exposure +4 EV, what we have looks… interesting. Definitely should have underexposed more. Still, we might as well push exposure all the way to +5 EV while we're at it and end up with Specimen E:

Is this good? Or is this bad? I do not know, for I am not a Sony fanboy.

 

[hoodlum]

I don't believe the M5 is dead.Can you back this up?

I already provided a dpreview link on the previous page

 

[stevelee]

Prior cameras had it, this one doesn't (maybe, still seems to be some debate). Logically, it was a definitive decision made by Canon. It seems pretty unlikely that they made that decision because they're malicious, crazy, or stupid.

You might consider that while in your personal reality 23.976fps equates to being 'serious about video', the majority of camera buyers do not live in your personal reality.

Is it 23.976fps only in NTSC mode? In PAL mode, do you get true 24p in that setting? I know the history of NTSC involved substituting color information in the spare time from speeding up the rate. NTSC black-and-white was a true 30i until the color system was adopted. Isn't 25p in PAL really 25p, and not 24.863942p or something?

I found the video interesting where the guy who posts 24p video on line actually shoots at 30p and converts in post. I'm stilly foggy on what it is that the 24p (or 23.976p) folks are aiming for. I was told in one thread that they were going for a cinematic effect, but didn't want it to look like movies. I never did puzzle that one out.

 

[dtaylor]

Is this good? Or is this bad? I do not know, for I am not a Sony fanboy.

DPReview and DxO will find some way to claim that it's bad.

 

[Aussie shooter]

Has anyone thought that maybe canon is looking ahead with their ommission of 24p. Perhaps they can see that in the not to distant future that no screens will be refreshing at the correct rate for 24p to run smoothly. To me it seems like it might be a bit like changing from imperial to metric. Imperial, while popular amongst those who are used to it is utterly ridiculous. Switching to a metric system is simply the way of the future because it makes sense. Of course I imagine the yanks will resist the most .
Just tossing out ideas though as I am yet another one who couldn't give a rat's ass about video.

 

[Shutterbug]

...
But, complaining that there's no 4K 24p is a completely different argument. The 80D doesn't even have 4K. And the 7Dii only offers 4K in 30p. IMHO, it appears that 4K 24p is being reserved for higher end (FF sensor) cameras.

The 7DmkII doesn't have any kind of 4k mode. And the 5DmkIV have 4k at 24fps.

 

[preppyak]

Has anyone thought that maybe canon is looking ahead with their ommission of 24p. Perhaps they can see that in the not to distant future that no screens will be refreshing at the correct rate for 24p to run smoothly. To me it seems like it might be a bit like changing from imperial to metric. Imperial, while popular amongst those who are used to it is utterly ridiculous. Switching to a metric system is simply the way of the future because it makes sense. Of course I imagine the tanks will resist the most .
Just tossing out ideas though as I am yet another one who couldn't give a rat's ass about video.

Youtube put 4k into their player 5 years ago...Canon is only just now adding it to their prosumer cameras. Lets not pretend the Canon model is being really forward looking on video.

There's definitely a movement of people that want 60p as the standard frame rate...and a few film makers delivering in 48p or shooting in higher frame rates...in part driven by video gaming, etc. But a screen that refrehses at 60hz or 120hz will be able to handle 24p just fine.

No idea what the actual reason will end up being, but its certainly not to get ahead of the curve.

 

[Mikehit]

I saw a comment, I think it was from the DPReview preview, that any sensor that can sample at 30 can be modulated to sample at 24. The details are far beyond my comprehension so I wouldn't vouch for it

There was a hack like this on youtube using the shutter angle command - not sure if Canon has such an option, though.

 

[Mikehit]

You sound like someone that doesn't do video. Videographers want all the tools they can get to make their vision come alive. it is much harder or impossible for us to manipulate a video and get a certain look compared to editing photo. If all Canon cares about is saving pennies at the convenience of customers, they are out of touch. with them then. this definitely drives people to other brands for video.

No, I don't use video much.
But I did see one demonstration of how you the differences 30p vs 25p vs 24p are absolutely minor. Yes, they have their uses but it seems most people complaining are doing so based more on principle than any practical issue (and many here seem to all into that side).

 

[andrei1989]

There are officially more M bodies than M lenses

 

[preppyak]

The fact that there is no Full HD 1920x1080 at 24p on the 90D is a bit surprising giving that it was there in the 80D.

There is 1080/24 on the 90D. Canon has confirmed as much and its in the spec sheet

But, complaining that there's no 4K 24p is a completely different argument. The 80D doesn't even have 4K. And the 7Dii only offers 4K in 30p. IMHO, it appears that 4K 24p is being reserved for higher end (FF sensor) cameras.

This is like arguing that the 90D having 7fps shooting is fine, because its what the 80D had. The point of releasing a new camera is to incorporate features consumers want and to update key features with the newest abilities.

Also, 4k24 exists in the SL3 and M50, so its not just a FF sensor thing.