Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

[Tugela]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

And, for those still living in the stone age who think that 4K is not for the masses, what is this then?

http://www.shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/HX-A500H

A $399 camera that shoots 4K. And who is it directed at? No less than the masses themselves!!

Some of you guys need to catch up with the modern world.

I have had a GoPro for over a year... It shoots 4K video..... And now there are cell phones coming out that shoot 4K.

But Canon can't put 4K video in their DSLR because ... well... people don't need it or want it.
B*******.

I think it is more likely that a bunch of people own Canon DSLRs that do 1080p video and they won't want Canon to release a camera that makes theirs too much out of date. F******.

EDITTED TO ADD: If there is an "affordable DSLR" camera released by Canon tomorrow with 4K & "1080/60-120p", I might be one of the first to buy it. In fact, I'm actually holding out till Photokina before I start buying new gear.

Look, if you're so into 4K video, and you want it cheap... there is BlackMagic 4K for $3000...
The best part is that you dont' have to sell your gear to get into it cause BlackMagic has EF mount so all your Canon lenses will work with it.

Why is it that people that are complaining about Canon needing 4K, can't look beyond Canon?
If you like what Panasonic has to offer, and you are really tempted then go for the switch.
Stop b!tchen and getta buyen!

Because the BM cameras are not practical (and, in any case, if you follow the boards on their products, their QC leaves a LOT to be desired apparently), while Panasonic's camera is not designed to work with Canon lenses. Yes, I know you can get some adapter to hack it, but the only lenses the new AF works fully with are Panasonic's own lenses.

For those living in the Canon ecosystem, we want a Canon version of the GH4. Make some other camera for the troglodytes who want still functions only, but give the rest of us the functionality of a GH4 (and make it better than the GH4!).

 

[Tugela]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

So, basically, what you guys are saying is that they can't develop a new camera since it might interfere with the sales of their old obsolete camera?

When is it ok to develop a new camera? two thousand years from now?

Surely it makes more sense to produce a new modern camera that replaces the old obsolete camera? And do it right now.

Oh right... So the non-4k C300 is obsolete. Perhaps you should tell the oscar nominated camera crews who were using it as a B cam on films nominated for best film and best cinmeatography.

And come to think of it, the Alexa isn't 4k so that must also be obsolete. Despite being the most popular camera for both film and tv.

But hey, I'm sure you make far better films and so need cutting edge gear unlike those clueless noobs.

We keep on hearing this Oscar nominated bla bla bla. What the people who say this don't point out (or apparently unaware of) is that those movies were made YEARS ago. You know, when their were not a lot of 4K options around, and those that were were relatively untested technology. If they had capable professional and reliable 4K products freely available then, they would have used those. Professional movie producers are not stupid, they know that to future proof their productions they need to be able to capture in the best quality they can.

Silent movies once completely dominated the Oscar nominations (or would have).....does that mean that "professional" movie producers have no interest in sound? That is basically what you are saying.

 

[mkabi]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

Because the BM cameras are not practical (and, in any case, if you follow the boards on their products, their QC leaves a LOT to be desired apparently), while Panasonic's camera is not designed to work with Canon lenses. Yes, I know you can get some adapter to hack it, but the only lenses the new AF works fully with are Panasonic's own lenses.

For those living in the Canon ecosystem, we want a Canon version of the GH4. Make some other camera for the troglodytes who want still functions only, but give the rest of us the functionality of a GH4 (and make it better than the GH4!).

You can (of course) sell your Canon gear and buy into Panasonic gear...
And, if you're still being stubborn... you have a few other options...

You can buy C500 or 1DC... too expensive?
Editted to add: You can get a used RED ONE with EF mount for around $7000... if you go for this option, I and most of the cinematography community will actually pat you on your back and say "way to go.." you can even rent it out for $200 per day/weekend.

And lastly, you can always buy the 5D3 and hack it with Magic Lantern?

And, with video... you shouldn't really depend on AF anyway... its all about the MF...

The image quality of the GH4 is going to be severely compressed when recording in 4K...
How does this make sense to you? 4K is recorded at 100Mbps, whereas 1080p is recorded at 200Mbps... lossy compression in my POV.
http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-g-compact-system-cameras-dslm/dmc-gh4heb.specs.html

We keep on hearing this Oscar nominated bla bla bla. What the people who say this don't point out (or apparently unaware of) is that those movies were made YEARS ago. You know, when their were not a lot of 4K options around, and those that were were relatively untested technology. If they had capable professional and reliable 4K products freely available then, they would have used those. Professional movie producers are not stupid, they know that to future proof their productions they need to be able to capture in the best quality they can.

Silent movies once completely dominated the Oscar nominations (or would have).....does that mean that "professional" movie producers have no interest in sound? That is basically what you are saying.

You're sleeping at the wheel my friend... not years ago... within the last year --->
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19169.0

You know whats been around for "years."
The RED ONE since 2007
The RED Epic since 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company
Speaking of which, the Red DSMC is a DSLR killer according to that wiki link... if you care about DXO mark scores it beats out the D800! With a score of 101... wait... what? A video camera company making a stills camera that beats out the D800 with a sensor smaller than the D800... hell no...

Surely, the multi-million dollar production companies can afford those cameras to shoot the 'oscar nominated movies' named in the link above the wiki link... correct me if I'm wrong.
BTW, most movies from back in the day... are recorded at greater formats than 4K... There were and continues to be large format (i.e. 70mm) panavision film cameras. We are all just playing catch up...

 

[syder]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

So, basically, what you guys are saying is that they can't develop a new camera since it might interfere with the sales of their old obsolete camera?

When is it ok to develop a new camera? two thousand years from now?

Surely it makes more sense to produce a new modern camera that replaces the old obsolete camera? And do it right now.

Oh right... So the non-4k C300 is obsolete. Perhaps you should tell the oscar nominated camera crews who were using it as a B cam on films nominated for best film and best cinmeatography.

And come to think of it, the Alexa isn't 4k so that must also be obsolete. Despite being the most popular camera for both film and tv.

But hey, I'm sure you make far better films and so need cutting edge gear unlike those clueless noobs.

We keep on hearing this Oscar nominated bla bla bla. What the people who say this don't point out (or apparently unaware of) is that those movies were made YEARS ago. You know, when their were not a lot of 4K options around, and those that were were relatively untested technology. If they had capable professional and reliable 4K products freely available then, they would have used those. Professional movie producers are not stupid, they know that to future proof their productions they need to be able to capture in the best quality they can.

Silent movies once completely dominated the Oscar nominations (or would have).....does that mean that "professional" movie producers have no interest in sound? That is basically what you are saying.

Wow... Talk about clueless... Keep digging that hole there ;-)

The 4K Red One was released in 2007. The first feature shot on it was released in January 2009. Red has been tested and working on movie sets for longer than the Canon cinema series has existed.

The Alexa wasn't released until 2010. And doesn't do 4K. And is far more popular than Red Cameras for film and tv. You're absolutely right when you say the pro's aren't stupid. So why then haven't they been shooting everything in 4k for the last 7 years?

Seeing as the 6K Epic Dragon has been out for almost a year now how could anyone possibly not be using it (shouldn't this mean that your 4K dream camera is already obsolete)?

 

[mkabi]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

So, basically, what you guys are saying is that they can't develop a new camera since it might interfere with the sales of their old obsolete camera?

When is it ok to develop a new camera? two thousand years from now?

Surely it makes more sense to produce a new modern camera that replaces the old obsolete camera? And do it right now.

Oh right... So the non-4k C300 is obsolete. Perhaps you should tell the oscar nominated camera crews who were using it as a B cam on films nominated for best film and best cinmeatography.

And come to think of it, the Alexa isn't 4k so that must also be obsolete. Despite being the most popular camera for both film and tv.

But hey, I'm sure you make far better films and so need cutting edge gear unlike those clueless noobs.

We keep on hearing this Oscar nominated bla bla bla. What the people who say this don't point out (or apparently unaware of) is that those movies were made YEARS ago. You know, when their were not a lot of 4K options around, and those that were were relatively untested technology. If they had capable professional and reliable 4K products freely available then, they would have used those. Professional movie producers are not stupid, they know that to future proof their productions they need to be able to capture in the best quality they can.

Silent movies once completely dominated the Oscar nominations (or would have).....does that mean that "professional" movie producers have no interest in sound? That is basically what you are saying.

Wow... Talk about clueless... Keep digging that hole there ;-)

The 4K Red One was released in 2007. The first feature shot on it was released in January 2009. Red has been tested and working on movie sets for longer than the Canon cinema series has existed.

The Alexa wasn't released until 2010. And doesn't do 4K. And is far more popular than Red Cameras for film and tv. You're absolutely right when you say the pro's aren't stupid. So why then haven't they been shooting everything in 4k for the last 7 years?

Seeing as the 6K Epic Dragon has been out for almost a year now how could anyone possibly not be using it (shouldn't this mean that your 4K dream camera is already obsolete)?

Correction - Red Epic 617 Monstro records at 28K since spring of 2010, so why haven't we propelled to that magnitude since then?

 

[Tugela]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

You can (of course) sell your Canon gear and buy into Panasonic gear...
And, if you're still being stubborn... you have a few other options...

You can buy C500 or 1DC... too expensive?
Editted to add: You can get a used RED ONE with EF mount for around $7000... if you go for this option, I and most of the cinematography community will actually pat you on your back and say "way to go.." you can even rent it out for $200 per day/weekend.

And lastly, you can always buy the 5D3 and hack it with Magic Lantern?

And, with video... you shouldn't really depend on AF anyway... its all about the MF...

The image quality of the GH4 is going to be severely compressed when recording in 4K...
How does this make sense to you? 4K is recorded at 100Mbps, whereas 1080p is recorded at 200Mbps... lossy compression in my POV.
http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-g-compact-system-cameras-dslm/dmc-gh4heb.specs.html

Buy and selling all your lenses every time a new camera comes out from a different manufacturer is not practical. There is no reason why Canon cannot produce a video/still hybrid like every one else. Because "it might interfere with their high end professional sales" is a ridiculous idea.

I don't want to spend 20K or rent someone else's camera - I'm an amateur, not a professional. I expect that a camera company that claims to provide competitive products for the high end of the market to do just that. Nothing unreasonable about that. In any case, those professional cameras are not suitable as general purpose imaging systems (with the GH4 as an example of the modern imaging system suitable for the advanced amateur). What the troglodytes don't understand is that the average Joe who buys an expensive camera (or even a cheap camera for that matter) expects it to do everything, and do everything reasonably well. They don't want to carry half a dozen different cameras around with them for different purposes. In fact, this is the very reason why so much effort has gone into hacking video modes in SLR cameras, because the users WANT that exact general all purpose functionality. There are the "purists" who want a dedicated camera, but they are a minority market that is shrinking. Something that Nikon is going to find out.

Why would I need to buy an old camera and hack it? Far simpler for Canon to provide that functionality since it is obvious it is doable. There is no reason not to. What Panasonic is doing (and Sony as well) is the way of the future for high end amateur cameras. Nikon has condemned themselves into a niche that will slowly destroy them. If Canon do the same thing, they will go the same way as Nikon.

FYI, if you are shooting set pieces in a studio you use manual focus, but dynamic video shot in camcorder mode is done using autofocus. So, it is necessary for a general purpose imaging camera to have fast auto focus that can track objects accurately.

FYI, the Panasonic can deliver uncompressed 10 bit 4K output from it's HDMI port, so compression is not a factor if you have an external recorder.

 

[Tugela]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

You're sleeping at the wheel my friend... not years ago... within the last year --->
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19169.0

You know whats been around for "years."
The RED ONE since 2007
The RED Epic since 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company
Speaking of which, the Red DSMC is a DSLR killer according to that wiki link... if you care about DXO mark scores it beats out the D800! With a score of 101... wait... what? A video camera company making a stills camera that beats out the D800 with a sensor smaller than the D800... hell no...

Surely, the multi-million dollar production companies can afford those cameras to shoot the 'oscar nominated movies' named in the link above the wiki link... correct me if I'm wrong.
BTW, most movies from back in the day... are recorded at greater formats than 4K... There were and continues to be large format (i.e. 70mm) panavision film cameras. We are all just playing catch up...

The movies might have been nominated for Oscars last year, but they were made years ago. When you see a movie is not when it was shot. Most of those movies were probably shot around 2011/12, which is about when the Alexa would have been at it's primacy. Moviemakers used that camera because it was the most reliable at the time. What are the using now however, and what will they be using next year? I bet it will not be an Alexa.

The Dragon may score the highest DXO rating so far, but it is not on the market yet, so nothing can be shot with it. But, when stuff is, you will need to wait for the 2017/2018 Oscars to see the results.

 

[Policar]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

You're sleeping at the wheel my friend... not years ago... within the last year --->
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19169.0

You know whats been around for "years."
The RED ONE since 2007
The RED Epic since 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company
Speaking of which, the Red DSMC is a DSLR killer according to that wiki link... if you care about DXO mark scores it beats out the D800! With a score of 101... wait... what? A video camera company making a stills camera that beats out the D800 with a sensor smaller than the D800... hell no...

Surely, the multi-million dollar production companies can afford those cameras to shoot the 'oscar nominated movies' named in the link above the wiki link... correct me if I'm wrong.
BTW, most movies from back in the day... are recorded at greater formats than 4K... There were and continues to be large format (i.e. 70mm) panavision film cameras. We are all just playing catch up...

The movies might have been nominated for Oscars last year, but they were made years ago. When you see a movie is not when it was shot. Most of those movies were probably shot around 2011/12, which is about when the Alexa would have been at it's primacy. Moviemakers used that camera because it was the most reliable at the time. What are the using now however, and what will they be using next year? I bet it will not be an Alexa.

The Dragon may score the highest DXO rating so far, but it is not on the market yet, so nothing can be shot with it. But, when stuff is, you will need to wait for the 2017/2018 Oscars to see the results.

Productions move much faster than this... Transformers 4 is using a few Epic Dragons and will be released this summer. I don't think DPs know or care what DXO is... they shoot tests/screen tests. Images are relevant... numbers... not much.

The Alexa is still gaining traction. Last ASC mag had more Alexa than all other cameras combined. Almost no Epic but Dragon will give it a boost. Some film. Lots of go pro and CX00 as b cams. No FX5, but Sony has a good product and their inclusion of prores might mean more adoption in tv.

You are correct that the Alexa is very reliable and that does contribute to its popularity. I have seen two go down, but overall it is the best there is by far. Post houses (in tv mostly) hate dealing with Red footage. A lot of tv is shot in 422 prores, not even 444 let alone raw. Speed and cost are important once you bypass "good enough" and 1080p/2k still is and will be for a while (for most productions not going to IMAX).

 

[Tugela]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

I live in Vancouver, where many movies are shot. Those that I have seen scenes being shot for typically arrive in theaters about 2 years later, and Oscars are the following year. Production decisions are made well before shooting, so we are talking about a three year lead time, perhaps more, before an Oscar nomination. The equipment used on those shoots dates back that long. When you are talking about a 2014 Oscar nomination, you are looking at equipment from 2011 or earlier.

 

[Policar]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

I live in Vancouver, where many movies are shot. Those that I have seen scenes being shot for typically arrive in theaters about 2 years later, and Oscars are the following year. Production decisions are made well before shooting, so we are talking about a three year lead time, perhaps more, before an Oscar nomination. The equipment used on those shoots dates back that long. When you are talking about a 2014 Oscar nomination, you are looking at equipment from 2011 or earlier.

The Alexa was released in April 2010.

In 2011 Hugo (shot on the Alexa) won Best Cinematography.

Sorry, but I'm not sure living in Vancouver alone gives your opinions precedence over fact...

 

[mkabi]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

Sorry, I'm not trying to gang up on you, Tugela....

You can't push what you WANT on others, you want this... you want that... How do you know that everyone wants that? Even if you refer to Magic Lantern and that whole society...
Granted people at ML are amazing, but put their efforts in any camera system and they should pull the same results. They only do the things they do cause thats what they can "afford" to do. Even those people at ML, are using existing technologies to do it, if Canon releases a 5DC at $6000 tomorrow. People will still buy a 5D3 and hack it with ML. Be happy and be lucky that Canon is not suing ML for hacking their gear.

I live in Vancouver, where many movies are shot. Those that I have seen scenes being shot for typically arrive in theaters about 2 years later, and Oscars are the following year. Production decisions are made well before shooting, so we are talking about a three year lead time, perhaps more, before an Oscar nomination. The equipment used on those shoots dates back that long. When you are talking about a 2014 Oscar nomination, you are looking at equipment from 2011 or earlier.

But, you're not helping your case... already mentioned. The RED One and Red Epic has been around a lot longer than 2011. See my previous post.

 

[Tugela]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

I live in Vancouver, where many movies are shot. Those that I have seen scenes being shot for typically arrive in theaters about 2 years later, and Oscars are the following year. Production decisions are made well before shooting, so we are talking about a three year lead time, perhaps more, before an Oscar nomination. The equipment used on those shoots dates back that long. When you are talking about a 2014 Oscar nomination, you are looking at equipment from 2011 or earlier.

The Alexa was released in April 2010.

In 2011 Hugo (shot on the Alexa) won Best Cinematography.

Sorry, but I'm not sure living in Vancouver alone gives your opinions precedence over fact...

Hugo won an Oscar in 2012, not 2011. It was shot in mid 2010, a few months after the Alexa was released. Presumably they didn't go in blind with new equipment, so either they had experience with beta cameras prior to that, or the sequences shot with the camera were done very late in the production. Take planning phases of the project into account and you get roughly 2 years from start to Oscar.

Let us give another example: Tomorrowland....shot in the summer of 2013 (I know, because I walked around on the set - parts of it were shot a few hundred meters from where I work), will be released in May 2015. In the unlikely event it gets an Oscar nomination, it would be up for the 2016 Oscars. Planning for the production would have started earlier than that.

:

 

[Tugela]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

But, you're not helping your case... already mentioned. The RED One and Red Epic has been around a lot longer than 2011. See my previous post.

My case is that the high end consumer videographer is ready for 4K, especially once they see what those cameras actually put out.....and yes it is happening right now. It is not just my opinion. When I read some of the comments on this forum I am left wondering if many here really know what is going on in the video side of cameras. The counter case is that no, people who spend $2k or more on their cameras don't want 4K and are content with 1080p. I call BS on that, and to be quite honest, I am shocked that people on this forum would even think that.

The real argument to make, is that professionals who take on paying projects don't see a demand for more than 1080p, and consequently don't feel the need to upgrade to 4K. BUT, that is completely irrelevant to the high end amateur market, who want to produce the highest quality they can display and are not being paid for it. For them, the only client is themselves and their own eyes.

How long the Red cameras have been around is irrelevant to that.

 

[mkabi]

Re: Cinema EOS C200 & C400 at NAB? [CR1]

But, you're not helping your case... already mentioned. The RED One and Red Epic has been around a lot longer than 2011. See my previous post.

My case is that the high end consumer videographer is ready for 4K, especially once they see what those cameras actually put out.....and yes it is happening right now. It is not just my opinion. When I read some of the comments on this forum I am left wondering if many here really know what is going on in the video side of cameras. The counter case is that no, people who spend $2k or more on their cameras don't want 4K and are content with 1080p. I call BS on that, and to be quite honest, I am shocked that people on this forum would even think that.

The real argument to make, is that professionals who take on paying projects don't see a demand for more than 1080p, and consequently don't feel the need to upgrade to 4K. BUT, that is completely irrelevant to the high end amateur market, who want to produce the highest quality they can display and are not being paid for it. For them, the only client is themselves and their own eyes.

How long the Red cameras have been around is irrelevant to that.

Just say those 2 lines... you don't need to convolute it with so many words.

In fact, you can say high end consumer/amateur market is ready for 28K... if they can afford it, no?