A bit more about the rumored EOS R for video [CR1]

David - Sydney

EOS RP
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Dec 7, 2014
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Looks like everyone have made their call already.
Sony will use Type A cards
While Canon, Nikon and Panasonic will use Type B cards, which are bigger, but faster and more common and backwards compatible with XQD.
CFe type A are smaller than type B but only have 1 PCIe lane so the max speed is 1GB/s. Certainly fast enough for 12mp video recording modes. Type A spec was only released in Q12019 so very recent/bleeding edge. I hope that owners of the A7Siii have been able to get cards and are happy to pay the early adopter pricing.

Given Canon's reluctance to approve some type B cards with lower speeds, it seems unlikely that type A cards could be used for 8k raw - for internal recording at least. So if Sony want to have a R5 competitor then they will need to move to type B cards.
 

Bert63

What’s in da box?
CR Pro
Dec 3, 2017
836
1,672
So 20 is great as the 1dx
And 45 is great as the R5

But 12 is somehow lackluster with no backing with evidence or examples. Crazy thought process.

Love my R and my R6’s but have also delivered cropped a7iii @ 10mp and have heard nothing about lacklusterness. Colors may be a pain, white balance may be off but had never heard a complaint on IQ.

Weird how no one goes, “how many megapixels is that?”
That’s because they can’t see the original image that you may have cropped from to get the final result.

If you’re working in an easy environment where your subject just sits there and you have bottomless opportunity to reposition and reshoot then maybe 12MP is okay for you.

If you’re working with moving targets and only get one chance at getting a decent image - such as BIF - then the ability to crop becomes more important. Good luck cropping action shots from 12MP If your workflow is 4K.

It’s also nice to be able to crop extra “reach” into your wildlife photos if you can’t afford the extra long fast glass wildlife guys all lust after.
 
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StevenA

EOS M6 Mark II
CR Pro
Jul 8, 2020
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So 20 is great as the 1dx
And 45 is great as the R5

But 12 is somehow lackluster with no backing with evidence or examples. Crazy thought process.

Love my R and my R6’s but have also delivered cropped a7iii @ 10mp and have heard nothing about lacklusterness. Colors may be a pain, white balance may be off but had never heard a complaint on IQ.

Weird how no one goes, “how many megapixels is that?”
LACKLUSTER

adjective
  1. lacking in vitality, force, or conviction; uninspired or uninspiring.

I'm backing up my lackluster comment with the definition. 12mp on a $3,500 hybrid camera IS uninspiring/lackluster. Especially when you consider the R5 does almost as good 4k video, offers 8k, AND is currently the worlds best stills camera WITH 45mp for only $400 more. Yes, I believe the a7sIII is a lackluster stills camera.
 
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RayValdez360

Soon to be the greatest.
Jun 6, 2012
552
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Philadelphia
Another video focused R camera.
Its great and all to see Canon lavishing so many new camera's at the video guys, but it would be nice if someone could remind Canon that some of us are still shooting stills...

Sour grapes aside, it does make absoulte sense to take the R5 body and create specalised versions of it for specific user groups. JUST MORE OF THIS SORT OF THING PLEASE ;).
the eos r5 is damn near the best you can get for stills. the only thing better out there are sensors and most likely just medium format sensors and maybe a few slightly better sony FFs
 

Stanly

EOS M50
Aug 5, 2020
28
12
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@Canon Rumors Guy "About 11.25MP" is a 3:2 sensor with DCI 4K pixel width.

So if the rumor is true, it's a 4096 × 2730 px sensor with 3:2 aspect ratio typical for photo, not 4096 × 2160 px sensor with 17:9 ratio from video camera like C200.

I find this might be great news, may be Canon will finally release a full frame camera with IBIS and AF that can take full advantage of those RF lenses for video capture. If it will also have ND instead of shutter (like upcoming C70) – it will jump ahead of the a7S III.

P.S.: 11.25MP is quite a compromise for photo, but not as bad as a randomly completely non-functioning video features for a hybrid shooter.
 
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padam

EOS R
Aug 26, 2015
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Given Canon's reluctance to approve some type B cards with lower speeds, it seems unlikely that type A cards could be used for 8k raw - for internal recording at least. So if Sony want to have a R5 competitor then they will need to move to type B cards.
Cinema RAW Light codec is coming to more Canon cameras, Sony can also develop something similar or they might just make internal Prores RAW possible in a few years' time, so Type A won't be much of a problem, although their Cinema cameras are sticking to Type B, which is a bit annoying.
 

jolyonralph

EOS R5 Mark II
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Aug 25, 2015
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This looks like someone has simply assumed Canon is going to mimic everything Sony does and made up a rumor accordingly.

In my mind what's far more likely is an EOS R5c with slightly reduced weathersealing and a heat exhaust port etc capable of effectively non-stop 8K recording - quite likely in a slightly larger body (perhaps 1DX size?) and for $1k more than the R5
 

tomislavmoze

EOS M50
Aug 6, 2020
27
37
I would be happy just with R6 cinema version with no overheating (although for now my R6 is really usable in 50fps, and has a better cooldown time than my R5) and would like it to have a ND filters. So I really hope this camera would be c50 with a ff sensor.
 
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DBounce

EOS RP
May 3, 2016
202
247
No updates on the C70 with the release scheduled for tomorrow? I thought a picture of the rear would have leaked by now.
 
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nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
304
190
Calgary
This looks like someone has simply assumed Canon is going to mimic everything Sony does and made up a rumor accordingly.

In my mind what's far more likely is an EOS R5c with slightly reduced weathersealing and a heat exhaust port etc capable of effectively non-stop 8K recording - quite likely in a slightly larger body (perhaps 1DX size?) and for $1k more than the R5
All else being equal, a larger body with a heat exhaust would most likely not be an effective solution. The heat exhaust would still burn your hands if the video is used non stop. The solution to giving non-stop 8K is to reduced the amount of processing. It is not just a matter of reducing the number of MP but reducing it to a 1:1 operation so that the no (or minimal) aggregation operations needs to be done, thus reducing the heat generated.
 
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David - Sydney

EOS RP
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Dec 7, 2014
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Cinema RAW Light codec is coming to more Canon cameras, Sony can also develop something similar or they might just make internal Prores RAW possible in a few years' time, so Type A won't be much of a problem, although their Cinema cameras are sticking to Type B, which is a bit annoying.
It will be interesting to see Canon's next firmware release for R5/R6. Lower bit rates could mean internal dual recording to both SD and CFe B cards and potentially could improve record times eg if only the SD card is used. External recording should also be possible for 8K cinema raw and 4k120 with longer record times. The size difference between type A vs type B isn't a major issue (IMHO) but type A are limited to 1 PCIe lane and it could end up being an orphan format and hence stay expensive eg memory stick.
 

David - Sydney

EOS RP
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Dec 7, 2014
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All else being equal, a larger body with a heat exhaust would most likely not be an effective solution. The heat exhaust would still burn your hands if the video is used non stop. The solution to giving non-stop 8K is to reduced the amount of processing. It is not just a matter of reducing the number of MP but reducing it to a 1:1 operation so that the no (or minimal) aggregation operations needs to be done, thus reducing the heat generated.
Isn't 8k raw already a 1:1 operation? There is no processing (or minimal) of the data. The only issue at the moment is that the HDMI port can't handle that bandwidth so internal CFe recording is the only option. Lower bit rate will mean processing the data but could mean less heat generation if only recording to the SD card (not the CFe card) or externally with no cards.
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
304
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Calgary
Isn't 8k raw already a 1:1 operation? There is no processing (or minimal) of the data. The only issue at the moment is that the HDMI port can't handle that bandwidth so internal CFe recording is the only option. Lower bit rate will mean processing the data but could mean less heat generation if only recording to the SD card (not the CFe card) or externally with no cards.
Raw means that there is no processing to JPEG, so yes, RAW is less processing.

But, as I understand it, no. By 1:1 I mean 1 sensor pixel to 1 output pixel.
 

David - Sydney

EOS RP
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Dec 7, 2014
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Raw means that there is no processing to JPEG, so yes, RAW is less processing.

But, as I understand it, no. By 1:1 I mean 1 sensor pixel to 1 output pixel.
8k/30 raw is for video but you mention jpeg. jpeg are for stills (or 33mp frame grabs from 8k raw video)
8k raw video is full sensor width (but not height ie not 3:2 aspect ratio).
45mp still raw is also full sensor width but in 3:2
Both video and still raw mean minimal processing required compared to 4k60 HQ or jpeg stills.
Future R5 firmware promised by Canon with 8K cinema will be raw video compressed (via processor) to lower bit rates. Hopefully not a lossy compression so still technically raw video.
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
304
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Calgary
8k/30 raw is for video but you mention jpeg. jpeg are for stills (or 33mp frame grabs from 8k raw video)
8k raw video is full sensor width (but not height ie not 3:2 aspect ratio).
45mp still raw is also full sensor width but in 3:2
Both video and still raw mean minimal processing required compared to 4k60 HQ or jpeg stills.
Future R5 firmware promised by Canon with 8K cinema will be raw video compressed (via processor) to lower bit rates. Hopefully not a lossy compression so still technically raw video.
Sorry, my bad. Frankly, I don't do video so I don't know anything about RAW video. I guess that RAW video is analogous to RAW stills?

But regardless, 1:1 for 8K basically means no need to aggregate multiple sensor pixels into 1 output pixel. That is the reason Sony and Canon are going for the 12+ MP.
 

jolyonralph

EOS R5 Mark II
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Aug 25, 2015
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Sorry, my bad. Frankly, I don't do video so I don't know anything about RAW video. I guess that RAW video is analogous to RAW stills?

But regardless, 1:1 for 8K basically means no need to aggregate multiple sensor pixels into 1 output pixel. That is the reason Sony and Canon are going for the 12+ MP.
I don't really understand how raw video works but:

If raw video is truly raw video (as in the raw output of the sensor) then it's always going to be 1:1 because it's the sensor output without processing.

If it actually means 'uncompressed video, but processed to an RGB (or whatever colour format) stream then it still has to aggregate multiple sensor pixels into one output pixel because of the bayer colour filter.

and 12MP isn't going to give you 8K video, only 4K of course.


The processing required to downsample (for example) an 8K screen to a 4K image is tiny compared to the processing power required to do H.265 video compression on an image.

I suspect the heat is not so much caused by the resampling of the image, but simply the moving around of such large amounts of data from sensor -> cpu -> card. So where you lose out with extra processing for the H.265 compression you gain in the much reduced throughput from CPU to card. Of course all these aspects add up in the end.

I have no idea how to make a camera do all this and keep cool. Seems I'm not alone :)
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
304
190
Calgary
I don't really understand how raw video works but:

If raw video is truly raw video (as in the raw output of the sensor) then it's always going to be 1:1 because it's the sensor output without processing.

If it actually means 'uncompressed video, but processed to an RGB (or whatever colour format) stream then it still has to aggregate multiple sensor pixels into one output pixel because of the bayer colour filter.

and 12MP isn't going to give you 8K video, only 4K of course.


The processing required to downsample (for example) an 8K screen to a 4K image is tiny compared to the processing power required to do H.265 video compression on an image.

I suspect the heat is not so much caused by the resampling of the image, but simply the moving around of such large amounts of data from sensor -> cpu -> card. So where you lose out with extra processing for the H.265 compression you gain in the much reduced throughput from CPU to card. Of course all these aspects add up in the end.

I have no idea how to make a camera do all this and keep cool. Seems I'm not alone :)
Correct, hence, the teardowns have reported that shooting RAW video does not overheat the camera.

But if you are selling a camera to folk who do not want to take the raw file and process it on their PC, then having a camera that can produce processed video without overheating is what you need. For that to happen, 12 MP or whatever 1:1 requires.