DPReview: Canon EOS R vs Nikon Z 6 vs Sony a7 III, which is best?

[Tremotino]

Canon is still working out the firmware as we speak with it's continuous Eye-AF inplementation. If some of the rumors hold true including IBIS, it would be prudent to at least wait for announcement of their flagship to see where things stand.

Eye-AF is a good example.
Nowadays people are like: You can't take an eye-sharp portrait without Eye-AF, that's too difficult.
Just because there exist Eye-AF, it's not a must have feature for great pictures or a great camera. Are the other photographers all idiots because they don't use it/want it?
I was alwas proud of my pictures when I got the eye sharp. For me it's lot of fun to nail it. Every single time. Eye-AF is fine (a really cool feature, maybe one day when I will be old and my eyes are week, I will use for sure eye-af for focussing) but less challenging.
I don't like when people talk about spec like it's the only way of modern photography.
Every time I buy a new camera, there are so many new feature/ improved technology I am really HAPPY with it. The features my camera is missing now will be integrated in my next one, so I know already now, my next camera will please me again.

btw comparison- The root of All unhappiness in live
start appreciate what you have/can afford

 

[bhf3737]

luckily i don't give a rats ass sbout them. lol

Luckily, Canon and many forum members think the same about what you have stated.

 

[jayphotoworks]

Luckily, Canon and many forum members think the same about what you have stated.

Yes, in fact most of what we say here have little relevance for Canon. They are neither interested in what we feel about how they are doing whether that is a "kudos," or "you're doomed buddy.." unless there are some big name social influencers here I don't know about. Fortunately, there are quite a number of review sites, some of which are quite large which share some critical views that 4fun has mentioned. That has much more of an impact.

Not every feature or decision is applicable to everyone, but for some things, when most of the competition have it, and you chose to exclude it, you can guarantee that the resulting review will experience some media backlash.

 

[jayphotoworks]

Wife: "What are you still doing online?"
Me: "Oh, just reading people scolding each other over and over and over and over."
Wife: "Your son needs a diaper change!"

I realize "when you argue with stupid people, they end up dragging you down to their level and beat you with experience." Not falling into their trap in the first place is the best way...

 

[Talys]

i have to disagree here. most of the forum posters here are NOT asking for totally unrealistic and/or mutually conflicting specs. Typically all we want is Canon products to be "at least on par" with competitor's products in the same price bracket.

Most of the criticism is totally justified. No IBIS is a fact, Sh*tty 4k implementation compared to competition is a fact. Not everybody will need or want all of these features and functionalities, but some or many do. None of it is just "useless spec sheet fluff and chaff". Only the few typical Canon Defenders / fan boyz try to make it look like that.

that's were a lot of the controversy on this forum (and many others) comes from. devoted brand loyalists trying to tell "critical observers" that their criticism is 1. totally irrelevant, 2. totally unfounded, 3. "Canon sells most, Canon knows best" and 4. is nothing but whining. they use all sorts of demagogical tactics, anywhere from condescending to vicious personal attacks in an attempt to discredit critical posters.

luckily i don't give a rats ass sbout them. lol

No, most forum posters aren't asking for totally unrealistic or mutually conflicting specs. But there are some people who are basically asking why Canon can't take the best from every camera manufacturer and stuff it into one affordable body. One could just as easily ask, why can't Sony put DPAF into their cameras already? Or for that matter, consumer grade lenses that dont suck?

Canon or Sony aren't trying to fleece you and they aren't trying to tell you how to shoot. You're just faced with different companies whose systems have different strengths and features and at least in 2018, it is not possible to have it all.

For me, Canon remains my clear favorite, at the end of the day, mostly because I like their camera bodies and lenses better. Sure, nearly every Canon I've used has been infuriatingly imperfect. But so has been every other camera and at the end of the day I want to take photos today, not wait for some magical unicorn of tomorrow.

 

[dak723]

I realize "when you argue with stupid people, they end up dragging you down to their level and beat you with experience." Not falling into their trap in the first place is the best way...

No offense, but you are not helping your own standing. You are trying to portray yourself as being on higher ground than your "opponent" - yet, you can't help continuing with the insults.

 

[dak723]

No, most forum posters aren't asking for totally unrealistic or mutually conflicting specs. But there are some people who are basically asking why Canon can't take the best from every camera manufacturer and stuff it into one affordable body. One could just as easily ask, why can't Sony put DPAF into their cameras already? Or for that matter, consumer grade lenses that dont suck?

Canon or Sony aren't trying to fleece you and they aren't trying to tell you how to shoot. You're just faced with different companies whose systems have different strengths and features and at least in 2018, it is not possible to have it all.

For me, Canon remains my clear favorite, at the end of the day, mostly because I like their camera bodies and lenses better. Sure, nearly every Canon I've used has been infuriatingly imperfect. But so has been every other camera and at the end of the day I want to take photos today, not wait for some magical unicorn of tomorrow.

Yes, we all know that the Canon R has no IBIS and is behind others in FPS and video. But they also have things that the competitors don't have. And poster after poster ignore that fact. They ignore it because it doesn't align with their arguments. When others point out the flaws in their arguments, they resort to name calling. Personally, I am quite glad that Canon has included a fully articulating screen, a dust protection curtain, and a control ring on the new lenses and the adapter. The fact these features are not on any other FF mirrorless camera seems to be ignored by all those who say that Canon is not "on par" with the other FF mirrorless cameras in its class. I'm also glad they have arguably the best EVF, the best touch screen and the best ergonomics and menu layout. But, of course, those things don't count for much either.

 

[jayphotoworks]

Yes, we all know that the Canon R has no IBIS and is behind others in FPS and video. But they also have things that the competitors don't have. And poster after poster ignore that fact. They ignore it because it doesn't align with their arguments. When others point out the flaws in their arguments, they resort to name calling. Personally, I am quite glad that Canon has included a fully articulating screen, a dust protection curtain, and a control ring on the new lenses and the adapter. The fact these features are not on any other FF mirrorless camera seems to be ignored by all those who say that Canon is not "on par" with the other FF mirrorless cameras in its class. I'm also glad they have arguably the best EVF, the best touch screen and the best ergonomics and menu layout. But, of course, those things don't count for much either.

The OP was why Canon fared poorly in the 3 way test. It's not a singular voice from "some" of us.

What Canon doesn't have is becoming commonplace amongst it peers. Not one, but many. Yes, Canon has certain things that nobody else has, but those things it doesn't have impacts the creative process and when other have it, you will be judged against that benchmark. You simply have to compromise if you decide to go with Canon for those areas. That is what some reviewers are commenting negatively on.

I can't test how much better Canon's color science, ergonomics and pro support are, but I can damn tell you how poor the rolling shutter is, crop and lack of IBIS are among other cameras in the range. That's why it did poorly.

 

[neuroanatomist]

No offense, but you are not helping your own standing. You are trying to portray yourself as being on higher ground than your "opponent" - yet, you can't help continuing with the insults.

Indeed. But then, I predicted that earlier today:

A big lesson you could learn today is to base your opinions on fact, but I suspect you'll choose to ignore that lesson in favor of more name-calling.

 

[jayphotoworks]

No offense, but you are not helping your own standing. You are trying to portray yourself as being on higher ground than your "opponent" - yet, you can't help continuing with the insults.

I can accept that observation. It's an internet argument.. an hour in, everyone has a laugh, 24 hours later people dont even remember who was involved.. at least someone found it amusing before having to do a diaper change.

 

[Aussie shooter]

No, most forum posters aren't asking for totally unrealistic or mutually conflicting specs. But there are some people who are basically asking why Canon can't take the best from every camera manufacturer and stuff it into one affordable body. One could just as easily ask, why can't Sony put DPAF into their cameras already? Or for that matter, consumer grade lenses that dont suck?

Canon or Sony aren't trying to fleece you and they aren't trying to tell you how to shoot. You're just faced with different companies whose systems have different strengths and features and at least in 2018, it is not possible to have it all.

For me, Canon remains my clear favorite, at the end of the day, mostly because I like their camera bodies and lenses better. Sure, nearly every Canon I've used has been infuriatingly imperfect. But so has been every other camera and at the end of the day I want to take photos today, not wait for some magical unicorn of tomorrow.

But canon cameras are equal to their competitors. Just not in a couple of areas like ibis or 4k where a minority of posters and a majority of youtubers want equality. Canon are tougher. That's a massive plus for most. Canon are better ergonomically. That is a massive plus for most. Canon destroys the competition in lenses. That is a massive plus to anyone with sense. Canon are innovative where others aren't . The adapters the control ring. A sensor that is covered when removing lenses. All things that really matter. Yet are ignored by spec heads that spend more time posting and less time shooting. All you want is a spec sheet that you can show off as a way to compensate for something else that is lacking( or so i have to assume). What makes no sense is that you spend all your time crying like a toddler that didn't get the biggest peice of cake instead of buying the camera that has the spec sheet you want. That has to be a mental illness right there doesn't it

 

[bhf3737]

The OP was why Canon fared poorly in the 3 way test. It's not a singular voice from "some" of us.

What Canon doesn't have is becoming commonplace amongst it peers. Not one, but many. Yes, Canon has certain things that nobody else has, but those things it doesn't have impacts the creative process and when other have it, you will be judged against that benchmark. You simply have to compromise if you decide to go with Canon for those areas. That is what some reviewers are commenting negatively on.

I can't test how much better Canon's color science, ergonomics and pro support are, but I can damn tell you how poor the rolling shutter is, crop and lack of IBIS are among other cameras in the range. That's why it did poorly.

If you follow Canon's product development strategy and the Japanese corporate culture you understand that the "benchmark" that Canon uses to compare its newer products against is its own set of products. They don't play the "who has done what" game. Instead, their corporate mentality is to be loyal to the customers and never abandon them (even if some customers may do so).
This has been done consistently for decades. Every release brings something to make the new product better and most of the time in an innovative way. Their customer support and after service is second to none. Looking at EOS-R from this perspective makes sense now. It has several new features that distinguishes it from 5D4 or 6D2 to be considered as a new offering and those who want the new features will buy them. Some of the features offered are incremental (e.g. 4K, c-log, -6EV AF, touch screen, etc.) and some are new (e.g. focus ring, sensor cover, EVF, bar interface, etc.). Those who buy EOS-R, will have assurance that what they get is going to work and maintained as advertised. It's cropped 4K may not be the best available out there or may have rolling shutter but it will certainly record 30min 4K without overheating and its AF will work. Simple.
Canon hasn't released half-baked products rushed to market for decades. In future, if Canon decides to put IBIS, full frame 4K video, or whatever else that the other manufacturers have, in their new models it won't be because of peer pressure, for sure. It will be because their technology has reached a level of maturity that can provide better shooting experience for the target customers in a consistent, persistent and reliable way.

 

[jayphotoworks]

If you follow Canon's product development strategy and the Japanese corporate culture you understand that the "benchmark" that Canon uses to compare its newer products against is its own set of products. They don't play the "who has done what" game. Instead, their corporate mentality is to be loyal to the customers and never abandon them (even if some customers may do so).
This has been done consistently for decades. Every release brings something to make the new product better and most of the time in an innovative way. Their customer support and after service is second to none. Looking at EOS-R from this perspective makes sense now. It has several new features that distinguishes it from 5D4 or 6D2 to be considered as a new offering and those who want the new features will buy them. Some of the features offered are incremental (e.g. 4K, c-log, -6EV AF, touch screen, etc.) and some are new (e.g. focus ring, sensor cover, EVF, bar interface, etc.). Those who buy EOS-R, will have assurance that what they get is going to work and maintained as advertised. It's cropped 4K may not be the best available out there or may have rolling shutter but it will certainly record 30min 4K without overheating and its AF will work. Simple.
Canon hasn't released half-baked products rushed to market for decades. In future, if Canon decides to put IBIS, full frame 4K video, or whatever else that the other manufacturers have, in their new models it won't be because of peer pressure, for sure. It will be because their technology has reached a level of maturity that can provide better shooting experience for the target customers in a consistent, persistent and reliable way.

For starters, that approach of being behind it's peers regardless of their corporate culture or feature set maturity has led to this thread. The press was critical of these omissions.

Then even though they are not driven by peer pressure, they added Eye-AF.

Then even though they don't release half baked products or rush them to market, the firmware was not complete and it can't eye af or shoot with a silent shutter in continuous mode with an update that still isn't available yet.

The Canon of yesterday, is seemingly not the Canon today. I'm not sure your assessment is totally valid here.

 

[4fun]

EOS R was rushed to market. It is half-baked. Otherwise it would not urgently need a firmware update immediately after launch to (hopefully) make some features functional and usable.

EOS R is lacking in several key dimensions, compared to competition, that's an established fact.

EOS R does have some advantages over competion as well, but most of them are minor items, of secondary importance with little or no impact on IQ and shooting experience.

And please dont mention Canon service. For non-CPS customers it is typically about as bad or non-existing as that of competitors. 99.9% of Canon customers are not attending Olympic games or World Championships etc. as accredited pros with their Canon imaging gear ...

eg in my country, Austria (EU country, 9 M inhabitants) Canon service for non-CPS customers is solely available from 1 (one) authorized *external service partner*, not from Canon themselves. From what i gather from my photo friends using different brand gear, turnaround times are more or less as long for Canon as for Sony or Nikon - never less than 14 days, often 4 weeks.

 

[4fun]

Nowadays people are like: You can't take an eye-sharp portrait without Eye-AF, that's too difficult.
Just because there exist Eye-AF, it's not a must have feature for great pictures or a great camera. Are the other photographers all idiots because they don't use it/want it?
I was alwas proud of my pictures when I got the eye sharp. For me it's lot of fun to nail it. Every single time. Eye-AF is fine (a really cool feature, maybe one day when I will be old and my eyes are week, I will use for sure eye-af for focussing) but less challenging.

i see it exactly opposite. every time i shoot portraits and then detect that of the umpteen captures taken, the one i like best for facial expression, emotion, personality showing through, mood and feel of scene, fabulous light from just the right angle, etc. ... all as perfect as can be ... BUT AF or manual focus has not perfectly nailed the shot ... (leading) eye slightly out of focus ... rendering a wonderful and otherwise perfect shot pretty much worthless ... trash bin instead of keeper ... it absolutely INFURIATES me, every time it happens. if my lack of manual dexterity and hand-eye coordination and/or shortcomings of technology I HAVE PAID for fails me and does NOT deliver the goods.

i am happy and have fun with my photography when I am (en)able(d) to create images that turn out exactly the way i want them. i take neither pride not have fun in my manual dexterity or skill as operator of complex equipment with lots of knobs, wheels, dials, buttons, settings and custom functions all of which i need to set in a specific way. no pleasure, only a plight and an obstacle in my creative process. i don't want having to fight my gear, i want my tools to SERVE me.

getting leading eye in a face in front of my camera into sharp focus is something that finally cameras can take care of.

Unfortunately EOS R is not able to keep that eye in focus in Servo-AF when my subject and or myself/camera are moving. Rushed to market, half- baked. Firmware update needed. lol

getting eyes into sharp focus is part of my OBJECTIVES for portraits, but not a task i want to perform "myself" ... when a few sensors, a little CPU and some smart algorithms can do it better than i ever could.

Creating an image exactly the way i envision it and want to have it, is something, no AI will ever be able to achieve on its own. That and only that is what i see as my task, my pleasure, my pride ... if i manage to achieve it.

i have highest respect for earlier generations of photographers who (occasionally) managed to create stunning images DESPITE the crude technology, FIGHTING with ugly chemistry, wet plates, mechanical contraptions and shenanugans of all sorts, darkrooms, etc.

They were not idiots, they did not have anything better at their disposal. You bet they would have been happy to use today's imaging equipment that frees us from (most) of the tedious, mundane, no-fun aspects of capturing photons, painting with light and create amazing images - provided we have enough imagination and creativity.

with today's imaging gear technology we are in a position almost like an architect who could create buildings "as imagined" without needing to deal with bricks, mortar, construction workers and builders.i like that.

 

[canonmike]

yes. Very true.

As a clear and glaring example for [intentional or unintential] anti-Canon bias at dpr all DPR reviews of Canon EOS M cameras are listing "limited native lens lineup" as a "CON" in the prominent Pro/con box on the conclusion üpage of their reviews. They also seem to factor it into their %-rating as a negative ... for the camera BODY! Full access to the entire universe of Canon EF/EF-S lenses via Canon OEM adapter is totally disregarded.

EOS M50 - 2018/04 - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-m50/9 - "Limited native lens selection"
EOS M5 - 2016/12 - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-m5-review/7 - "Native lens lineup is sorely lacking"
EOS M3 - 2016/08- https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-m3-review/8 - "Limited Canon EF-M lens lineup"
...

"Limited native lens availability" is/was not listed as a negative for Sony cameras or Fujifilm X (in the early days when lens lineup was also limited) or Nikon Z cameras today. Yes, they are also not holding it against Canon EOS R.

But even today they are still holding it against Canon EOS M system, because it is one of the few items they had on hand to justify their very low rating for the M50. I don't accuse them of being shills in this case, but they clearly are personally enamored with Fujifilm's retro styling cameras/"hipster appeal" and Fuji crop lenses at close to FF prices. "Bang for the buck" only plays a role in their reviews if/when it suits them.

We should all know by now, that in the court of DPR, Canon will always get a guilty verdict, in their humble opinion, of course.

 

[neuroanatomist]

The Canon of yesterday, is seemingly not the Canon today.

True. The Canon of yesterday was the ILC market leader with just over 40% market share. The Canon of today is the ILC market leader with just under 50% market share.

For some, it's important to keep in mind the overall background and context, which provide insight into the broader effects (or lack thereof, in this case) of critical reviews on sites like DPR. Others prefer to ignore reality.

 

[4fun]

Others prefer to ignore reality.

"reality" is a fictional concept.

 

[brad-man]

"reality" is a fictional concept.

You have demonstrated that belief in this forum time and time again. Nice to finally see you admit it...

 

[bhf3737]

For starters, that approach of being behind it's peers regardless of their corporate culture or feature set maturity has led to this thread. The press was critical of these omissions.

Then even though they are not driven by peer pressure, they added Eye-AF.

Then even though they don't release half baked products or rush them to market, the firmware was not complete and it can't eye af or shoot with a silent shutter in continuous mode with an update that still isn't available yet.

The Canon of yesterday, is seemingly not the Canon today. I'm not sure your assessment is totally valid here.

Again, your mistake is that you are interpreting Canon's product development behavior by your own standards. And again, referring to Japanese corporate culture, the promise to release some features is not because you or DPR or some celebrities that you mentioned have asked for. It is because they understand it will improve "shooting experience for the target customers in a consistent, persistent and reliable way".
The way that Japanese corporate culture differs mostly from what you expect, and I believe it is the cause of your confusion, is that in Western mindset it is acceptable to say “I can do it” even thought you know you can do it with much lesser than 100% probabilities at that time and then try to get to 100% as much as you can. If not, still ok, you will do it again in the next release. But in Japanese corporate culture if they feel that it’s possible to achieve most likely 100%, they don’t agree to it yet. They make sure it is exactly 100% and then commit to and assume responsibility for delivering it. Japanese companies that play with Western mindset rules seem to be more predictable and popular in the West, anyway.
If the firmware you refer to was incomplete, they wouldn't have released the product at all. I have EOS-R and as it is, it offers advanced and pleasant shooting experience for my photography genre. The promised feature will further extend that experience when they arrive.